Curse

LexTalionis · Feb 17, 2012, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Patch notes say that Hero AI was improved as of Feb 16, 2012, but unhelpfully provides no details whatsoever. As of such, this is an open thread to discuss any new related findings such as "Assassins heroes don't completely suck anymore" (I wish).

What do you notice different about your heroes now?

spun ducky · Feb 17, 2012, 04:49 AM // 04:49

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=12

I think that is a good start as to what happened. It will take direct testing to see what exactly the changes are but it is a nice starting point to know what to check.

LexTalionis · Feb 17, 2012, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Thank you very much for cross-referencing that post! I had no idea to look there. At least I have a rough idea of what skills to test now.

If you notice any significant changes at all, please feel free to list them here, so we can consolidate all the new information. It'd help me create stronger builds.

Gabs88 · Feb 17, 2012, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Awesome, gonna have to log in and check a few of em ^^ I imagine Ritual Lord could be a very good choice now

Aria Frost · Feb 17, 2012, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

I imagine Ritual Lord could be a very good choice now

I did a very quick test this morning and it seems that heroes use it properly.

Gabs88 · Feb 17, 2012, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aria Frost

I did a very quick test this morning and it seems that heroes use it properly.

After testing. Ritual Lord is not used correctly but it's better then before I guess. It's used after each ritual is cast and he won't use it at Boon of Creation. But he won't cast boon of creation before the 31 second wait on ritual lord is over either xD Switching back to say the least

Jeydra · Feb 17, 2012, 10:59 AM // 10:59

From first looks, updates to some of the already-key skills in hero builds:

- Mistrust: AI uses it on targets that don't have offensive spells (healer monks & restoration ritualists).
- Heroes will use Signet of Ghostly Might and/or Armor of Unfeeling soon after summoning any spirits, rather than waiting until they have finished raising them all.
- Glyph of Lesser Energy when activated only, the AI prioritizes skills of high cost over lower ones. Monks ignore 5 energy spells except when an ally is near-death.
- Heroes do not use Panic to its full potential: when it recharges, they do not cast it on a second foe, but wait for the hex to expire on the original target.
- Ancestors' Rage is used on characters who are within range of more than one foe and taking damage. Unlike most damaging skills which target allies, heroes will not use Ancestors' Rage while set to "Avoid Combat".
- Heroes will not reapply an enchantment or hex before it expires, even if doing so would be advantageous. Examples: 1) Necromancers will not recast Aura of the Lich to create more minions if the enchantment is still active. 2) Necromancers will not recast Masochism while the enchantment is still active, and miss the +2 Soul Reaping boost opportunity to boost the spell itself, lovering the sacrifice cost.

Skills that might potentially benefit a lot from this update, but aren't currently meta:

- Judge's Intervention is used differently than Divine Intervention: heroes will frequently spam it while out of combat (like Death Nova), but rarely use it during combat, either to save an ally's life or deal damage. In particular, they seem less likely to target minions, which might otherwise be the most effective recipients of the skill.
- Wastrel's Worry and Wastrel's Demise are spammed constantly over other skills and can drain energy rapidly.

Gabs88 · Feb 17, 2012, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

From first looks, updates to some of the already-key skills in hero builds:

- Mistrust: AI uses it on targets that don't have offensive spells (healer monks & restoration ritualists).
- Heroes will use Signet of Ghostly Might and/or Armor of Unfeeling soon after summoning any spirits, rather than waiting until they have finished raising them all.
- Glyph of Lesser Energy when activated only, the AI prioritizes skills of high cost over lower ones. Monks ignore 5 energy spells except when an ally is near-death.
- Heroes do not use Panic to its full potential: when it recharges, they do not cast it on a second foe, but wait for the hex to expire on the original target.
- Ancestors' Rage is used on characters who are within range of more than one foe and taking damage. Unlike most damaging skills which target allies, heroes will not use Ancestors' Rage while set to "Avoid Combat".
- Heroes will not reapply an enchantment or hex before it expires, even if doing so would be advantageous. Examples: 1) Necromancers will not recast Aura of the Lich to create more minions if the enchantment is still active. 2) Necromancers will not recast Masochism while the enchantment is still active, and miss the +2 Soul Reaping boost opportunity to boost the spell itself, lovering the sacrifice cost.

Skills that might potentially benefit a lot from this update, but aren't currently meta:

- Judge's Intervention is used differently than Divine Intervention: heroes will frequently spam it while out of combat (like Death Nova), but rarely use it during combat, either to save an ally's life or deal damage. In particular, they seem less likely to target minions, which might otherwise be the most effective recipients of the skill.
- Wastrel's Worry and Wastrel's Demise are spammed constantly over other skills and can drain energy rapidly.

Quote:

In addition to base-level AI changes, today's build made specific adjustments to the AI's use of every skill in the Unused Skills and Misused Skills sections of this page

He did quite specifically state that it was unused and misused skills though. Heroes are still as dumb as ever using SoGM (tested it) at least.

Jeydra · Feb 17, 2012, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Lol yeah I read it as "every skill in this page" and was wondering why Jurah never re-cast AotL and Masochism.

Bar Mistrust, nothing major then.

LexTalionis · Feb 17, 2012, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Well, I've only run a little, but I have to say from preliminary testing - the AI is fantastic at Guilt/Mistrust now. It seems to prioritise huge groups for Panic (tested with random multi-pulls in Wajjun). The funny thing is Panic wasn't on that list of fixes, so maybe it's just coincidence.

Power Drain is now only used as an interrupt when your hero is low on Energy. Mesmers may require more interrupts to compensate. I assume Leech Sig is the same, but haven't tested it yet.

I'd have tested AP on a hero (AP AE meteor shower might have promise), but it's infested with mesmers with Expel Hexes, not exactly the best place to test AP.

According to the discussion page, this was supposed to be the melee AI patch - I tried sticking in a melee dwayna healer and didn't really notice much of a difference, except the golem seemed to run further before leashing than before. This is probably not a good thing, even if it balls up faster. On the other hand, EVAS AI seems a -LOT- better, but that could just be me.

Related dev comments:
This update did include fixes to melee hero AI, mainly for their positioning and tendency to stall out entirely in the middle of a fight. The skill speed issue for Assassin heroes won't be fixed yet, but it's something we're continuing to look at. - Joe Kimmes

Yes, this is the melee AI update. There's more that I'd like to put out later, such as Assassin chains and more skill-specific changes, but that'll be determined by how much time the Live Team has in coming weeks. - Joe Kimmes

Kunder · Feb 17, 2012, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Out of the list of skills updates the major one I spotted was Leech Signet/Power Drain. If heroes are using that better now, not just for the interrupt before they have even spent energy, that's a big buff to both Mesmers and Mo/Mes.

Rest of the skills look pretty marginal though, even if the AI used them perfectly they wouldn't see much action. Ritual lord is close to runnable but still just not on par with SoS/ST.

Sagittario · Feb 17, 2012, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Is there a full list of changes or do we have to make a reasearch on ourselves?

Aria Frost · Feb 17, 2012, 04:28 PM // 16:28

We have a list of skills for which the AI usage has been fixed here. Corresponding to the unused & misused skills reported on the official wiki article about Hero behavior and some comments by the Anet AI developer Joe Kimmes on the relative talk page.

Daesu · Feb 17, 2012, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Well, I've only run a little, but I have to say from preliminary testing - the AI is fantastic at Guilt/Mistrust now.

Yes the AI is better with Guilt and Shame now. The advantage of that is dom mesmers can use these skills for energy management without investing into inspiration. The disadvantage is that these skills have long recharge times so it makes more sense for them to be included into a Me/A AP build. Shame is also highly conditional, depending if there is an enemy healer in the area. On the other hand, AP is one of those skills that have been improved upon. A typical dom Me/A AP build with Guilt and Shame seems workable now upon testing.

Missing HB · Feb 18, 2012, 09:40 AM // 09:40

So, i've been doing HM WoC on other chars ...
- Took me an hour for favor returned because mai kept teleporting randomly and suicided
- Took me few hours for trading blows because it was purely about luck ( kurzick displomats are having the same kind of bug as gunther in FA)
- Other quests aren't especially hard, but it's only about agro bugs

I'm sorry but i can't consider there was any improvement in IA. I would even say IA is worse than before..

Styxgyan · Feb 18, 2012, 07:54 PM // 19:54

I just test Melonni with a scythe build and she never use rending aura or winds of disenchantment at all.

HigherMinion · Feb 18, 2012, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Styxgyan

I just test Melonni with a scythe build and she never use rending aura or winds of disenchantment at all.

I'm more disappointed about the AI tearing down non-FEs. I was hoping I'd be able to start using Staggering Force + TMS on my derv heroes. Not a chance.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2012, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Styxgyan

I just test Melonni with a scythe build and she never use rending aura or winds of disenchantment at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I'm more disappointed about the AI tearing down non-FEs. I was hoping I'd be able to start using Staggering Force + TMS on my derv heroes. Not a chance.

Staggering Force, TMS, Rending Aura, Winds of disenchantment are all NOT in the list of the recent update, why would you all expect them to be changed?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_...#Recent_update

HigherMinion · Feb 18, 2012, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Staggering Force, TMS, Rending Aura, Winds of disenchantment are all NOT in the list of the recent update, why would you all expect them to be changed?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_...#Recent_update

I am disappointed that they didn't update the AI to use one of their most recent changes to skills. Is that not hard to ask? If you're going to claim to have "fixed" or "improved" melee AI, start with the basics that we know and can identify are broken; dagger chaining and teardowns.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2012, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I am disappointed that they didn't update the AI to use one of their most recent changes to skills. Is that not hard to ask? If you're going to claim to have "fixed" or "improved" melee AI, start with the basics that we know and can identify are broken; dagger chaining and teardowns.

They already said that they are looking into those other issues but the Feb 16 update was only for all the skills listed under the missed-use and unused-use sections.