Originally Posted by Dblazer

Hehe well thanks for your input aswell.
I have to say I love the ST rit a lot too. I am using both a MM and a ST.
I do wonder about your 'don't bring a lot of mesmers' theory.
I've heard of several people that they are running such as 3 Esurge mesmers to solo the most hardest HM area's.
Also I am now using the inspiration mesmer with a few rit healing spells together with the sos (chann/resto) as the 'healers'
I am aware of the fact that UA monks are pretty damn good, but I am hearing a lot of different statements about the "dedicated healer VS hybrid".

Could you please elaborate a bit on the info, as it sounds you are pretty enthusiastic about it.

Thanks in advance and I will aswell try the setup you mentioned (meaning removing one mesmer and bringin an extra monk)

PS: I am using a SoGM rit aswell atm, don't you think the lack of spirits will have a big impact? I find them to be pretty OP in HM in combination with minions to have a gigantic body blocking wall.

PPS: As someone recommened, I've been trying out Shields+spears setups on my casters with 5e/+30hp on spear and +30hp/10armor against fire on shields for more defense.
I actually noticed their survivability increased aswell as rit's now putting spirits closer to mobs (in actual range). BUT my SoS rit started casting splinter on them aswell because they wear a martial weapon. Would you say it's a problem?

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

I'll try to answer these as best as I can and that I'm aware of I have put your main questions in bold to help me to answer

1st: Depending on your class etc is all dependant on synergy, warriors and mesmers don't really gel that well anything past 2 mesmers seems to go awry.

2nd: The UA VS Hybrid question is as old as the hills the main main reason for hybrid is more damage can be brought while the UA has 2 key points but is from a more defensive point a strong uber elite and powerful healing that intern means you would require only 1 healer and 1 hybrid PROT ie off the MM bomber.

3rd: When Heros use martial weapons and if the team have splinter it will be cast upon them whether or not this is effecting your team or your self is a judgement call. I always take 2 copies of splinter weapon for a near perminant splinter weapon for mass AoE destruction


Hope this clears some of your questions up.

Originally Posted by Dblazer

It certainly did, thanks for the answers
About the splinter weapon, do you run 2 high specced channeling rits, if so how exactly does your teambuild looks like if I may ask?

Originally Posted by Gabs88

http://s18.postimage.org/6qr89n5a1/image.png

Basically, if there's 2 elites on a bar that means there's a free choice which one you should use. Fill out the remaining slots for yourself based on your preferrences. But it makes for an allright base build. Whether or not you want protective was Kaolai on the Me/Rt is entirely up to you. Same about whether you want RoJ or UA since it's the non elite skills youre after anyhow.

The ST / AoTL bar you change depending on zones but in any zones where there's exploitable corpses I always reccomend a MM.

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

3rd: When Heros use martial weapons and if the team have splinter it will be cast upon them whether or not this is effecting your team or your self is a judgement call. I always take 2 copies of splinter weapon for a near perminant splinter weapon for mass AoE destruction

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

No just the standard SoS chan'll build and SoGm but on the SoGm I have spirit siphon at r10 channel and im able to have splinter on that a weaker version but great for the down time

Here is what I use for the 8man areas
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1525/gw333w.jpg

Skill codes are

Mo/E : OwYS0YITME0V3NNgXEfEIDSE
Mo/P : Owkj4wQjJP+MrP13lMPo31YcMA
N/Mo : OANDUshvSyBUBoBVVbh1D3VBEA
Rit/N : OASjQwiM5MYMv5QzQMJYmXzkLA
Rit/Mo : OAOjAyiKJOO7o9Z7bKPYmYsWCA
Me/N : OQRDAswzMngcwNFna66BVVeK
N/P : OAljYgHspO5B7QZQot7qq1Y6NA

death pact signet can be replaced by Bloodsong on the Ritu/necro all user friendly.
sofar this is stomping Winds of Change HM

Originally Posted by _Aphotic_

Two things.
I'm really curious as to why one would run both Panic and Shared Burden. They're both quite good, but considering they have the same recharge, and AoE range... heroes will stack them on the same balled targets, rendering 1 of those skills ineffective/redundant.

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Honestly I'm kindof against the idea myself. But when the choice is between a N/Rt and UA healer and a Me/Rt, I believe the Me/Rt is the overall best choice as it boosts the effectiveness of other interrupts such as cry of frustration, provides a huge nearby AoE at low energy cost and easily triggered, brings deep wound and has a KD which heroes use with great effectiveness at low cooldown and no energy cost.

And this defencive overkill allows you to get away with using only 4 heals even in very hard zones and still have a relatively easy time.

And no, Ineptitude might be more damage on paper but decreased enemy effectiveness and easier interrupts for heroes is increased offence in it's own way and shared burder boasts a bigger AOE. Not to mention it also means you need more energy management which means less bar compression. Shared burden is not recast until it has run out on all enemies which means 5e\20 sec instead of 10e\10sec.

You should try it, I went in to the think tank for a few days trying countless builds to replace the N/Rt and this is what I came up with. It's surprisingly effective in all zones.

Originally Posted by Dblazer

I think you did a nice job of designing that healer/defensive mesmer. I tested it for a few runs and I was suprised the waht look liked lack of healing, was actually enough to keep the team alive in harder areas.
Altho I do have to say my hero used to prioritize things such as Shared burden before Spirit light when his ally was at 10%..
But ye no build will fix crappy AI.

Originally Posted by Dblazer

- Do you run the spear/shield on all heroes? (could imagine the RoJ caster to have a smiting cast for faster cast/recharge)

- What heroes would you recommend dropping in 6man areas?

Originally Posted by _Aphotic_

While I agree 2 copies of Splinter is quite fun, I strongly disagree with the first part of your statement. Call your target; heroes will always attack the called target. And generally (when set to Guard/Attack), heroes will always auto-attack your foes.

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

The Ritu's have caster spears/sheilds the Smiter has a 40/40 setup from http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gertrud or the other place to get them from lux

6man areas I would say sogm but beef up the SoS ritu with some heals from resto drop curses nec change the UA monk for a hybrid heal/dmg dealer to balance the group out.

----------



Might I ask which part do you disagree with. As with most warriors bar they run whirlwind attack so that burns up splinter fast and if 2 ritu's are using spears that will also be a net from auto attacks; that's 3 heroes 1 your warrior will be burning splinter up fast and 2 heros which not so fast; so 2 copies would be optimal. I never run into energy problems but I would assume that even 3 users 2 auto attackers and the warrior on splinter would drain the E and not keep a perminant splinter on your warrior?

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Yeah, if you use spears splinter will be cast on casters. Which IMO is why you should be wearing wands or staves. It's better to have splinter on EVAS / SoS / Minions.

Originally Posted by Dblazer

Also trying to see where I can fit in some small healing (like PwK), because now only the UA monk offers healing and if the UA hero dies it might get tough.

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

All user preference really ideally Ritu's would think oh if I place spirits up in the middle that will benefit more lol.

But they don't that's why when your melee best thing to do is take spears for the ritu's this then creates a Chess board effect front,middle and back line.



if you over aggro it can get hairy. But I found the prot minion master to be of great effect and again my heroes don't really ball up to an extent where it would be hazzard and the spirits and minions create a barrier effect. While I'm dishing some heavy damage and blocking remeber a warrior is the best at holding the LINE no matter what when that is combined with a tsunami of minions and spirits its great fun

AT the point in hand if you want some minor heals drop the para on the necro curses for ritu or monk that should give so free slots for either pwk and spirit light or mbas or drop both para secondary from the curse necro and the smiter

for the smiter this is what I used to run before the Smite shouter

OwYSAZHP+MkB13lMPuIdxqP (not in game atm so can't post a screenie)

But I will say the para shout actually help mitigate some of the annoying damage and CTT stops any nasty touch skills

Originally Posted by Dblazer

but I have to say the UA Monk is just spamming heals for days :P I always wonder why people prefer the SoLs healer as this monk doesn't seem to run out of energy at all with a lot of big heals.

I completed the last few quests of WoC HM easily with this setup, but today I went in to DoA (the Foundry) and I just got 'WTFSTOMPED". :P
I guess I am not ready for that place yet, even on NM it feels so much harder than most HM areas.
After the a few pathetic attempts I replaced the MM for a ST and I do have to say, with a more defensive setup, I came a lot further in the same area.
So still making changes to see what's best for ea area, but I have to say it's a very decent build.

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

The UA VS Sols healer isn't hard to guess why most people like the Sols over a dedicated monk 1st rule is do I need a full healer in my set-up if the answer is no, then you only need a hybrid hence the Sols healer the elite can be a damage skill or a protection skill. You don't need a full bar to red-bar up;
2nd rule is energy some times monks are very unreliable on energy as they spam all day to keep red-barring. "BUT" if the monks bar is put together right understanding what each skill is, time to recharge etc you can find Gole is the only Energy-management skill needed. While SoL and the all necro pool for energy is utter madness I tell you! energy will never be a problem if things are dying of course.

As for DoA my little team set-up is useless in there my set-up is for everyday stuff and simple dungeons like bogroots, slavers but tweaked for FS

If you're planning on DoA I would say fire eles and panic and ST prot ritu are a good base to start from.

Originally Posted by DRGN

Maybe YOU need ST to get through NM, but most people don't. That much defense is completely pointless in easy mode when well micro'd prots are basically all you'll need. I also don't know why in the world you're running an ST and MM together, either.

Originally Posted by hunter

Lastly, keep in mind ST affects things equally, so u will lose charges whether ur heroes or minions are being hit, and shelter will retain 7-8 charges before dissipating. Thats a good 8 hits or so before ur shelter is no more and then u gotta wait 1-3 sec for ur ST to put up shelter again. During all this time ur party is susceptible to all kind of nasty shit, namely the recently buffed ele bosses. During this 1-3 sec window (assuming enough energy on ur st to recast shelter) ur minions will server as an extra buffer layer to soak up dmg while also dishing dmg in return.

In a few words, minions synergize well up to a certain point with shelter and union as an addition buffer layer or dmg mitigation tool and can also server as a decent dmg dealing tool as well.

Originally Posted by yoyoma

not to derail this thread into a 'to ST' or 'not to ST' with minions, but i agree with running a ST Rit alongside a MM. Here's what i typically run around with in HM or wherever:

http://i39.tinypic.com/9u54cw.jpg

that's a ST rit (no Union) along with a IV MM, a compressed Mes bar, and a Dwaynaway derv (with nothing put into Earth Prayers so enchantments die off quickly for healing of party and minions, carrying a spear & shield to stay in middle of party to heal front and back lines). Keeping minions alive longer (ie, not bringing Death Nova) lets the Nec focus its energy on other things instead of raising minions every time it turns around. And it allows the minions to serve as AI foe fodder without dying every few seconds. ST rit appears to do a better job at focusing on 2 protective spirits than it does with 3, meaning it doesn't screw the pooch nearly as often because of it, and in return doesn't require as much micro.

templates:

toon: Owhj0hi8oSXT+g1g7iOMMMHM7PA
RoJ Mo: OwAT44nB3xnV9xrUfXi1/ioFBA
UA Mo: OwAS4YIPMkqPel67Ss+Xk5B
ST Rt: OACjAuhKpOYTrX48bO5SuOTrJA
SoGM Rt: OACjAuiMpNO7o9mrc6NxYVTmJA
Nec: OAhjUoGboS1MVV4BVBKgNfTOSTA
Me: OQBEAYoiOIRDkDM9Y6knhASEkBA
Der: OgCiomsM9eNfhehgxdpelJafBA

nowhere near perfect, but this is all I use except when running the Deep (add knockdown skills, Fall Back (to get by the gate), and EoE for that). not knocking anyone else's build, but this has a good balance of off/def. maybe leaning a little too far to the def side with dwayna derv.

edit: swap Bloodsong and Pain around, and change attributes on ST Rt to SP 10+2, Rest 8+1, Chan 8+1, Comm 10+2+1.
edit: could easily swap out Spirit Bond or Divine Healing for Mark of Pain on RoJ monk for more offense

Originally Posted by hunter

Normal mode??? who gives a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO about normal mode. WHen we discuss builds its meant for hard mode by default. Why would you even bother changing the difficulty to normal unless you are working on ur protector titles. 7H trivialized content so much there is not much distinction between normal and hard mode.

Secondly, minions act as both a dmg mitigation tool, and as a dmg dealing tool, both through their regular attacks and through the boom effect from the nova when they die. So you have a skill that works well in the protection and dmg dealing department. its a win win.

Doesn't matter if spirits affect minions, spirits also affect everyone else at the same time. Spirits allow that minion wall to you know, act as a minion wall until shelter is up and until your other defensive tools are into effect, namely you have enough adrenaline for SY and prot spirit is cast on 2-3 heroes. In theory it might be counterproductive but PVE in this game is quite chaotic, so both heroes and minions are most of the time. The longer a minion lives, the more chance it will heave to have death nova cast upon it.

In addition, when a hero is not being attacked it has a tendency to free cast a lot more than when being chased by the big scary mob. It is because when being attacked, the AI causes the hero the try to run away from the mob which is futile since all HM mobs have enhanced movement and attack speed. Have a look at hero efficiency when they are free casting and compare that when you have 4 melee mobs at ur face beating on u. Even if minions can survive 3 sec longer when under ST, those are 3 more spec heroes are spamming their spells w/o much hindrance.

Lastly, keep in mind ST affects things equally, so u will lose charges whether ur heroes or minions are being hit, and shelter will retain 7-8 charges before dissipating. Thats a good 8 hits or so before ur shelter is no more and then u gotta wait 1-3 sec for ur ST to put up shelter again. During all this time ur party is susceptible to all kind of nasty shit, namely the recently buffed ele bosses. During this 1-3 sec window (assuming enough energy on ur st to recast shelter) ur minions will server as an extra buffer layer to soak up dmg while also dishing dmg in return.

In a few words, minions synergize well up to a certain point with shelter and union as an addition buffer layer or dmg mitigation tool and can also server as a decent dmg dealing tool as well.

If you still do not agree with me, because you either have trouble to understand all this or simply do not like me, keep in mind chances are i am a better player than most players (scrubs) in here and don't like you eithe. So just do what i say and dont question me. I am too lazy to Screen shot a full DoA HM run with heroes running half a bar just to shut the EFGjack fanbois up