Curse

Lanier · Mar 13, 2012, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

What zone would that be lol? Speaking HM i can't think of any. Not where there is absolutely no chance you wont be stuck between two groups and have someone get spiked to death.

How often do you get stuck between 2 groups and someone gets spiked to death? If you're good at pulling, I can't really think of a situation where this would happen. Otherwise... well you should have enough heal/prot that no one dies when just facing one group at a time.

The only places where I can really justify bringing UA is in WoC HM or DoA (or another exceedingly difficult area). Everywhere else... well people shouldn't be dying, at all. If they are, then there is something wrong with the team's defenses. I'd rather just bring a mediocre damage elite like RoJ on a smite bar, and if a dedicated heal/prot monk is being used, I'd rather just take a skill that is better at keeping the party alive.

DRGN · Mar 13, 2012, 04:05 AM // 04:05

For the vast majority of HM, I've never found UA particularly necessary; I never used it in any of my vanquishes, WiK, or WoC HM. That stray death is easily patched up by Death Pact Signet or Flesh or something. I just run RoJ with my Dervish because I have my hero skill hotkeys mapped to mouse buttons so I cantap my thumb when I want Binding Chains + ROJ.

However, if I'm attempting an extremely difficult area, I'll pack it on my smiter. I did Forgewight HM the other day and that instant res proved absolutely invaluable there, as well as in one part of Selvetarm. In hindsight I also wish I would have had a UA hero for HM Gloom but it didn't really fit the build I was running.

Wenspire · Mar 13, 2012, 04:28 PM // 16:28

In all honesty, I seldom have deaths in my party for the majority of HM. Of course in the more difficult areas, there are a few but seldom is there a wipe. Could it be that I have too much healing/prot? That's a possibility. I have 1 dedicated healer and recently have been using an MM with three prot skills. I guess what I am trying to say is that deaths shouldn't happen often, if at all. And unless you are in a :ne where wiping kicks you out, there's always the rez shrine.

EFGJack · Mar 13, 2012, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Do you ever watch TV from under a blanket just to feel comfy? You don't really need the blanket but you purchased it anyway. That's what UA is: a blanket. You don't need it but it certainly improves the quality of your adventures when you don't have to worry about deaths even if there are two in a row, because they will be resurrected within seconds and they'll be completely functional due to full blue & red bars. That's a luxury you're missing out on without UA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

The only places where I can really justify bringing UA is in WoC HM or DoA.

I'll have to disagree with you. UA is an ability you should only take when you can expect a few deaths (doing quests, vanqs and such at your leisure) but from my personal experience it's better to dedicate the elite slot for something that does a better job at preventing deaths when you're doing serious business PvE. My personal fave is WoH (I cleared DoA HM without cons/sy with a WoH/ST backline, WoH is strong), but Healing Burst isn't a bad alternative, with high DF you don't need so many party heals either.

Lanier · Mar 13, 2012, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

I'll have to disagree with you. UA is an ability you should only take when you can expect a few deaths (doing quests, vanqs and such at your leisure) but from my personal experience it's better to dedicate the elite slot for something that does a better job at preventing deaths when you're doing serious business PvE. My personal fave is WoH (I cleared DoA HM without cons/sy with a WoH/ST backline, WoH is strong), but Healing Burst isn't a bad alternative, with high DF you don't need so many party heals either.

Ah, well I was referring more to the fact that I would only use UA if I were expecting deaths. In normal vqs, dungeons, missions, etc., my party members dont really ever die, so I dont even bother to bring the safety blanket. I do agree with you that WoH is a very good elite, and I would rather have one of those on a dedicated healer than any other elite (except Hburst in areas where the AoE heal is worth it).

My comments on UA were more in regards to smite bars.

Daesu · Mar 13, 2012, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Ah, well I was referring more to the fact that I would only use UA if I were expecting deaths. In normal vqs, dungeons, missions, etc., my party members dont really ever die, so I dont even bother to bring the safety blanket. I do agree with you that WoH is a very good elite, and I would rather have one of those on a dedicated healer than any other elite (except Hburst in areas where the AoE heal is worth it).

My comments on UA were more in regards to smite bars.

We talked about this before. Any respectable general team build should have res which means they "expect deaths". If you don't "expect deaths" then there no point bringing a res.

In the 2 out of 3 scenarios that you mentioned above, it may not matter much even if you don't bring a res but on missions that would fail upon a wipe then bringing a res is worth while. If the mission is so simple then it doesn't matter what you put into that elite slot. If it is diffcult and fails-upon-wipe then I rather bring a res in case I make a mistake, so I can run through the mission as fast as possible instead of playing it safe all the time.

UA is arguably the best res in the game and monks already have enough good non-elite heals/prots. I don't see it as a big deal even using it on a smite bar. Balancing safety with the best speed is the deal in the hardest areas of the game. Just considering safety alone is not good enough. An overly-defensive build is not desirable as it is obviously safe but slow.

Lanier · Mar 13, 2012, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

We talked about this before. Any respectable general team build should have res which means they "expect deaths". If you don't "expect deaths" then there no point bringing a res.

My point is that outside of the elite areas, you shouldn't expect deaths. If you do, then your team has problems with its defensive capabilities.

Look at EFGJack's post above. UA is one of those skills that you should only bring when you expect deaths. When I'm doing a random VQ or dungeon and I avoid overaggro with simple longbow pulling, deaths do not occur. Therefore, having UA on my smite's bar would be a complete waste of a skill slot since it would never see use. As I have mentioned before, the only time that I could justify using UA is if I expected deaths, and the only time that I would expect deaths is when I'm doing elite areas.

Daesu · Mar 13, 2012, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

My point is that outside of the elite areas, you shouldn't expect deaths. If you do, then your team has problems with its defensive capabilities.

Look at EFGJack's post above. UA is one of those skills that you should only bring when you expect deaths. When I'm doing a random VQ or dungeon and I avoid overaggro with simple longbow pulling, deaths do not occur. Therefore, having UA on my smite's bar would be a complete waste of a skill slot since it would never see use. As I have mentioned before, the only time that I could justify using UA is if I expected deaths, and the only time that I would expect deaths is when I'm doing elite areas.

If you look at any of the rated 'Great' generic heroes team build in pvx, they all have a res in them and they are not ONLY meant for elite areas obviously.

Now having said that, if you play more defensively, you can still replace the res with another skill and accomplish your missions. Then the next question becomes, would you have accomplished your missions FASTER, if you have played less defensively? Maybe you would or maybe you won't.

In the end, it is a balance between risking a wipe and having zero deaths at all. Where that balance is can be very personal as it depends on your playstyle.

But as for a generic heroes team build for public consumption, I think it should include a res then people can see that if they want to bring a res this is how you can do it. And as far as what the best or one of the best hero res in the game is, one can argue, that it is UA, considering the alternative hero resses.

A good res reduces the "price of death" so much so that it gives you sufficient leeway to play more aggressively which in many situations, depending on the area and your build, implies a faster success for your mission/quest.

Lanier · Mar 13, 2012, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

In the end, it is a balance between risking a wipe and having zero deaths at all. Where that balance is can be very personal as it depends on your playstyle.

Then I think this is where we differ. When I'm creating a hero team, I first look to have sufficient defenses to avoid deaths altogether. Then, I optimize damage output.

Also, my previous post probably came off a little differently than I intended it to. I almost always put a rez or two in my party (or in my inventory as scrolls). They are, as mentioned above, a safety blanket. That doesn't mean I ever end up using them... and while I'm willing to give up a skill slot or two or an inventory slot on something that will, in all likelyhood never be used, I'm not willing to give up an elite skill slot.

Jeydra · Mar 14, 2012, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I'm perfectly happy to take a few deaths with ever more offensive teambuilds, utilizing UA to replace an entire defensive character. I'll take the deaths because I (almost) lose nothing and in fact return to 100% energy. The last iterations of the builds I run have something like three red bar skills in the entire teambuild (not counting "Fall Back!" as red bar). To say that deaths do not happen would be an exaggeration.

My personal experience with places like Kappa HM indicate that UA can prevent wipes that skills like WoH / ST cannot. As such, I will unequivocally say that UA is an excellent skill that should always be considered in a teambuild. It might not always win a spot on merit (it is after all an elite skill), but it should always be considered.

Gabs88 · Mar 14, 2012, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Provided you already bring a character where it would fit I totally agree with that statement.

Lanier · Mar 14, 2012, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm perfectly happy to take a few deaths with ever more offensive teambuilds, utilizing UA to replace an entire defensive character.

I guess it all comes down to a difference in opinion then on what makes a good team build...

Daesu · Mar 15, 2012, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm perfectly happy to take a few deaths with ever more offensive teambuilds, utilizing UA to replace an entire defensive character. I'll take the deaths because I (almost) lose nothing and in fact return to 100% energy. The last iterations of the builds I run have something like three red bar skills in the entire teambuild (not counting "Fall Back!" as red bar). To say that deaths do not happen would be an exaggeration.

That is what I have expected your playing style to be, Jeydra, after reading your posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Then I think this is where we differ. When I'm creating a hero team, I first look to have sufficient defenses to avoid deaths altogether. Then, I optimize damage output.

This is where we differ.

For me, deaths are fine as long as I avoid wipes. A res like UA is almost perfectly designed for someone who wants to run through missions/dungeons fast. I also have a choice to flag my heroes and pull with every mob encounter but I don't always do that. It is just my degree of risk tolerance.

Wenspire · Mar 15, 2012, 04:41 PM // 16:41

it's definitely a playstyle difference. To me, a successful run is one where I have little no no deaths and no wipe. I know others judge success based on time of completion which is fine also.

I just remember the days before UA was an instant rezbot skill. I actually used that skill back then and loved it.

Gabs88 · Mar 15, 2012, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

it's definitely a playstyle difference. To me, a successful run is one where I have little no no deaths and no wipe. I know others judge success based on time of completion which is fine also.

There's a big difference between wiping and having a death now and then though.

Malganis · Mar 15, 2012, 05:33 PM // 17:33

On my paragon and dervish, (I dont have a warrior char), I like to use a Blood Magic Necromancer/Dervish with Order of the Vampire, Blood Ritual, Mystic Healing, Vow of Piety, Blood Bond, Oppressive Gaze, Mark of Fury, and any optional such as Strip Enchantment or Signet of Lost Souls. Any Blood Magic staff of Enchanting helps, and attribute split would be 12 Blood, 11 Wind Prayers, 6 Soul Reaping, or 12 Blood, 10 Wind Prayers, 8 Soul Reaping. Add runes to your taste. Awaken the Blood is optional but not recommended with the additional health sacrifice. Mystic healing will heal everyone, and Vow of Piety refreshes when OotV ends to keep the hero less squishy after sacrifice. Mark of Fury provides you more adrenaline, and the Cracked Armor on end fuels Oppressive Gaze for more degen. Blood Ritual keeps your Monk and Mesmer heroes high on energy. Blood Bond will heal your minions as well as yourself with every attack. I'll usually bring one or two monk healers/smiters, one minion master, one domination mesmer, and three other melees to round out the party.

Wenspire · Mar 15, 2012, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

There's a big difference between wiping and having a death now and then though.

This is true. Funny thing is that when I wipe, it's usually because they killed off my characters with the rez and I have to continue down two party members. I really think the enemy takes priority on your characters that have a rez skill on their bar.

Gabs88 · Mar 15, 2012, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

This is true. Funny thing is that when I wipe, it's usually because they killed off my characters with the rez and I have to continue down two party members. I really think the enemy takes priority on your characters that have a rez skill on their bar.

THIS! Fck yeah I've noticed this. And this is perhaps the biggest downside to bringing UA there is! I've often been completely shocked by how often my UA is targetted over other characters when I choose to bring it.

agrios · Mar 16, 2012, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

My personal fave is WoH (I cleared DoA HM without cons/sy with a WoH/ST backline, WoH is strong), but Healing Burst isn't a bad alternative, with high DF you don't need so many party heals either.

Dumb question: Whats ST? Soul Twist?

Besides being an old player sometimes I'm away for a time and become kinda confused with all anachronisms of the meta.

Jeydra · Mar 16, 2012, 12:11 PM // 12:11

ST = Soul Twisting, generally implies having Shelter as well. Idea behind the build is to have Shelter up all the time, which makes it close to impossible to wipe (but not to die).