Curse

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

Here's 2 of my typical order builds that I use when bringing me-lee

1st straight up Nec/P

Attributes 12+4 in blood,Soul reaping 8+1,Command 10

Cultist's Fervor|Dark Fury/ Mark of Fury|Order of Pain|Blood Bond|Find their Weakness!|Go for the eyes!|Sols/or anything|Awaken the Blood

2nd Hybrid Rit/Nec channeling 12+4,Spawning 3+1,Blood 12

less power from the orders but it suffices with the spirits and been a utility too.

Blood Bond|Dark Fury/Mark of Fury|OoP|SoS|Ancestors Rage|Splinter Weapon|Spirit Siphon|Awaken the Blood

Both heros have a spear with either focus or sheild

the numbers on these i'm not 100% sure as I cant login atm

I'm hoping I missunderstand you because there's no way you use 2x OoP in the same build I hope?

But in regards to OoP my answer is very simple, it adds weapon damage and not armor ignoring damage the way SoH does. Meaning that you only get +19 damage (18 points attribute) vs a 60 armor target.

And it still doesn't get recast before it runs out, with a 2 sec casting time. Which means a hero will not under any circumstances (other then using cons which reduces casting time) keep it up for more then 75% of the time.

I guess the SoS version has some merit though, it is kinda cool, but still not worth bringing.

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Ok, here's a build where orders does more than 34 damage:

Ootv @14 deals 89 dps when your dervs are hitting 3 targets each. Kind of shits on esurge no? When you don't know how to take advantage of a skill, it's not always the skill that's crap.

Oh, I forgot to mention, it also heals your frontline for 89 hps, which makes it on par with any two healing elites. As long as you have some prots, they're unlikely to ever need much in the way of healing.

loopysnoopy · Apr 04, 2012, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

I'm hoping I missunderstand you because there's no way you use 2x OoP in the same build I hope?

But in regards to OoP my answer is very simple, it adds weapon damage and not armor ignoring damage the way SoH does. Meaning that you only get +19 damage (18 points attribute) vs a 60 armor target.

And it still doesn't get recast before it runs out, with a 2 sec casting time. Which means a hero will not under any circumstances (other then using cons which reduces casting time) keep it up for more then 75% of the time.

I guess the SoS version has some merit though, it is kinda cool, but still not worth bringing.

forgot to say only 1 at a time as each would override if i'm not mistaken tho SoH and orders go together so you get increased damaged I think but cant be sure

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Ok, here's a build where orders does more than 34 damage:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5...emplate1um.jpg

Ootv @14 deals 89 dps when your dervs are hitting 3 targets each. Kind of shits on esurge no? When you don't know how to take advantage of a skill, it's not always the skill that's crap.

You have a point there about dervish inate attack its all AoE

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Yeah, fill out the rest of the bars and make a working HM build out of that. And account for the fact that you have more then enough AoE by bringing 2x splinter weapons alone so the AoE damage from the scythe becomes completely obsolete. And the fact that running a triple dervish frontline would mean you need to fill up with additional defence and condition removal. Loosing DPS on other bars. And the single target dps loss from bringing dervishes over assassins in the first place.

Stop trolling jackass

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

forgot to say only 1 at a time as each would override if i'm not mistaken tho SoH and orders go together so you get increased damaged I think but cant be sure

That is correct, but you still have to make a viable team build out of it. Bringing both defence, offence and utility.

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Actually, like I said, I run two dervs and two splinters, and the aoe from flash enchants and scythes is far from meaningless. In fact, the aoe from scythes makes splinter weapon that much more awesome, since you get to use all your charges in two swings, or one eremites or twin moon etc. Plus the splinters hit your main target for 90+ with each swing. The only reason I don't bring orders is because I'm lazy and run the same bars everywhere, from VQs to DoA, so I take a shitton of defense instead (since I can't really bring SY).

If I was going to take orders it would probably be something like player, orders, vos or reapers sweep derv, vos derv, panic, ineptitude, offering of spirit healer, and either mm or st. Orders would be rt/n since 14 spec in channeling makes more difference than 14 spec in blood, but if I was running reapers sweep I would be tempted to use a cultists fervor/dark fury orders so he could just spam earthshaker. If I was spamming SY, I'd go with the mm, and consider skipping the ineptitude mes. In that slot I'd try another spearchucker, a triple heat ele, or anything that could carry a fourth splinter weapon.

Lanier · Apr 04, 2012, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Testing WoTA sins I managed to get 74 DPS vs Master of Damage, and they also give armor ignoring AoE damage on top of this. While the different dervish builds only provided a maximum of around 50 DPS. That said they did include deep wound and of course hitting multiple targets, but the AOE part of this build is well covered by the double splinters @16 attribute points.

I am also quite aware that SoH is downright amazing, but incorportaing it in to the build would recuire swapping out or changing either the Panic or UA/Channeling bar. And I'm not convinced a single smite monk would be able to outperform the Panic, nor am I convinced that the single target damage it would provide would compensate for the loss of the second splinter copy.

I wasn't actually suggesting using dervs over assassins. I only do so because I haven't bothered to change my build since the melee update.

You might as well try swapping the panic for a smiter though in a few dungeons or vqs or something and see how they compare. The direct damage on the smite bar may be a little (and only a little) less than the direct damage (smite condition/hex, reversal of damage) from a dom bar, but... SoH is just so good, especially if you're using assassins instead of dervs. I'm pretty sure that a smiter (once again, I use a tease smiter so that my monk can manage his energy with 2 SoHs) will result in more overall damage than a panic.

I still think that panic is overkill on the defense with the other defenses that you have listed, so the loss of panic from a defensive standpoint is negigible in my opinion. Plus, you have a small amount of defense in smite bars from the small amount of healing and the occassional rupts.

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I still think that panic is overkill on the defense with the other defenses that you have listed, so the loss of panic from a defensive standpoint is negigible in my opinion. Plus, you have a small amount of defense in smite bars from the small amount of healing and the occassional rupts.

I never really thought of Panic as defense though, I think of it as offense. It interrupts heals, prots, summons and so much other shit that it's all just worth it. May end up swapping though, just started paragon so will be posting results from EOTN dungeons in a couple of days.

Actually though, I could probably grab smite skills on either the AoTL nec or go Rt/Mo UA/Channeling/Smite and grab heals on AoTL. Those prots are probably not going to be very usefull for the most part, apart from prot spirit.

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 08:22 PM // 20:22

This thread actually has me wanting to recommend dervs over sins. 75 dps vs 50x3 dps, you get half as much overall dps. Then if you look at splinter weapon, when using a scythe you're going to hit your primary target with 3 charges of it. At 16 spec, that's 159 damage, if it's used on recharge that's an extra 27 dps to the primary target, so you end up with more ae dps and more single target dps. Even if splinter is only used half as often as it could be, the sin has only 12 more single target dps , compared to the ~57 aoe dps loss (50x2 minus the splinter charges that would otherwise have hit an extra one of the surrounding targets rather than the primary and estimating death blossom at 30 aoe dps, which is probably generous). If you're not hitting 3 guys at once obviously assassins start to look a bit better, but how often does that happen, and which pulls do you want to be doing the most damage to? Also consider, if you carry enough splinters to maintain it near constantly (two copies per derv), each derv will get you 104 dps on your primary target, or slightly less really since if you have two dervs you need 4 copies of splinter meaning one will be 12 spec if you're not using a merc.

Which brings me back to orders again actually

. If you have dark fury up, something like pious fury and pious renewal will let you charge twin moon sweep anytime you hit two or more targets with it. If you're hitting 3, that means you use every charge of splinter weapon in a single swing, and if it's a pack of 4, each of those charges will hit its full complement of targets. You'd need 5 copies just to keep up with how fast you're attacking. 6 scythe hits, a full set of splinter weapon charges, and 144 self healing every 1.17 seconds, while actually gaining energy. In that circumstance, order of pain would be dealing 65 dps per dervish. Strength of honor would be doing 123, again, per dervish. If your scythe hits for 25ish without orders, you're talking about ~800 total dps with that setup (one pious derv, one orders necro, one smite monk, 5 copies of splinter [email protected] spread through the team), which should be fairly sufficient. I'm not saying pious renewal, pious fury, twin moon sweep is a great hero bar, I don't even know if heroes use pious renewal. Nor am I saying that 5 copies of splinter weapon is going to help make a resilient team, or that heroes will spam it fast enough to make full use of all five copies. I'm just highlighting some of the broken stuff you can do with scythes and melee buffs like orders.

bleh · Apr 05, 2012, 01:34 AM // 01:34

2 Assassins! awesome.
Gonna dust off my Para and give this a go.

I ran 2x Dervish Heros with 2x splinter for a while, but found the killing to be poor when i got into a stalemate situation I.e. 2-3x healers without enough shutdown available.
was kinda hard to kill 3 x healers kiting all over the show with splinter >_>.

Found an Axe warr with DeepWound, splinter and a water snare ele much better TBH.

Are 2x Assassins > than a Axe warr or even Hammer warr for this team?
I suppose the crits add much more DPS.

byteme! · Apr 05, 2012, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Orders scales upwards if you meet any of these requirements

# of physical weapons in party - casters included (spears)
# number of hits per attack - can be increased with IAS
- can be increased based on weapon (scythe, daggers)
- can be increased based on build (example: barrage)

Orders scales according to your setup/build. Whether Orders is good or crap depends on you and what you run.

Gabs88 · Apr 05, 2012, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Orders is crap if your setup is good is more like it. Fck off already if you wanna discuss orders all day, make your own thread.

IAS was already used.
Daggers was already used.
Spears on casters is retarded, as it means heroes are likely to waste splinter weapon on them rather then assassins.
Heroes suck at barrage.

The last time orders was good for general PVE Barrage+Pet was still a viable way to play.

You wanna put more physicals in to the team? Go with a 5 phys setup so that orders DPS goes up to acceptable levels? The make your own build doing that. And solve the practical issues that comes with the territory. Make up for the lost DPS of the casters and have fun in wonderland...

Last page, I tested orders vs SoGM in a test that strongly favored the orders build. Master of damage only records damage dealt directly to him, and while the 2 assassins and spear was locked on directly to master of damage only. The spirits went off killing the targets on the side as well loosing recorded DPS.

Orders also relies on physical attacks in the first place. So conditions such as cripple or blind, hexes, blocks, KDs and a ton of other stuff with in real gameplay decrease the DPS of the orders further down then 34 again. So whatever gains you get by running a spear mesmer or spear channeling rit are quickly lost.

And in the end, the SoGM didn't just outperform the Orders build by a small margin. Even with only 15 attribute points on both the SoS and SoGM rit, the SoGM dealth 3 times as much damage as the orders did. 3 times as much, no amount of scythes or spears in the entire world is gonna make up for that. And the insignificant amount of healing doesn't either.

Azazello · Apr 05, 2012, 02:54 AM // 02:54

I posted a bar earlier that would let you do more dps than your whole sogm bar with one skill and you're still talking about how crap that skill is. I am amused.

itiscurtains · Apr 05, 2012, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

And in the end, the SoGM didn't just outperform the Orders build by a small margin. Even with only 15 attribute points on both the SoS and SoGM rit, the SoGM dealth 3 times as much damage as the orders did. 3 times as much, no amount of scythes or spears in the entire world is gonna make up for that. And the insignificant amount of healing doesn't either.

Are you really that surprised that one skill - OotV - doesn't outdps an entire SoGM bar plus Painful Bond?

superraptors · Apr 05, 2012, 07:16 AM // 07:16

frontline
frontline
frontline
orders with mop + barbs rip ench with inspired hex
sos n/rt with splinters+ painful + some resto skills
sogm rit
st rit with boon of creation + spirits gift
mm with prot skills

id probably take jagged strike + exhausting over wild strike + unsuspecting, block isn't a problem at all with a billion spirits + minions hitting it.

Lanier · Apr 05, 2012, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

frontline
frontline
frontline
orders with mop + barbs rip ench with inspired hex
sos n/rt with splinters+ painful + some resto skills
sogm rit
st rit with boon of creation + spirits gift
mm with prot skills

id probably take jagged strike + exhausting over wild strike + unsuspecting, block isn't a problem at all with a billion spirits + minions hitting it.

FYI, heroes don't use orders well with barbs due to the high casting time and tendency of heroes to spam barbs. Thats why I seperate my curses and orders necro and put quick channelling stuff like splinter + arage on my orders necro. This way, heroes can do a pretty good job of maintaining OoP and dark fury.

Gabs88 · Apr 05, 2012, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

I posted a bar earlier that would let you do more dps than your whole sogm bar with one skill and you're still talking about how crap that skill is. I am amused.

You assumed every single hit would be hitting 3 foes with a scythe. On 3 different characters. If that happens double splinter weapons will already have wiped the group by themselves and order is still absolute crap.

Azazello · Apr 06, 2012, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Two characters. You don't have much experience running scythes (or melee at all) do you? You need to stop raving on about how two splinter weapons instantly smashes groups. Again, I hope it's hyperbole, because otherwise you continue to make yourself look like an idiot. Or are you talking about NM? Maybe stop testing on master of damage and actually run some melee.

Gabs88 · Apr 06, 2012, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Two characters. You don't have much experience running scythes (or melee at all) do you? You need to stop raving on about how two splinter weapons instantly smashes groups. Again, I hope it's hyperbole, because otherwise you continue to make yourself look like an idiot. Or are you talking about NM? Maybe stop testing on master of damage and actually run some melee.

Maybe stop talking about theoretical DPS which you seem unable to calculate, look at the downtime and damage curves assosiated with your build and read up on diminishing returns? Those 89 DPS you get in your dream circumstances with 3 targets hit on every single scythe swing is still less then what SoGM actually delivers tested and proven. And it doesn't need fairytale circumstances to do it either.

The only reason you proclaim orders to be good, is that you haven't actually taken a good look at the numbers.

loopysnoopy · Apr 06, 2012, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Maybe stop talking about theoretical DPS which you seem unable to calculate, look at the downtime and damage curves assosiated with your build and read up on diminishing returns? Those 89 DPS you get in your dream circumstances with 3 targets hit on every single scythe swing is still less then what SoGM actually delivers tested and proven. And it doesn't need fairytale circumstances to do it either.

The only reason you proclaim orders to be good, is that you haven't actually taken a good look at the numbers.

The thing here is gabs is the SoGm VS melee+orders is not as easy to say SoGm is the best. I'm saying this as if your in the battlefeild and not at the master of damage you will see SoGm has a few draw backs BUT so does melee+orders but meele heros Kite rather well but spirts have a fixed postion which is libel to AoE and general hate

Melee+orders draw backs are simple melee hate and horrible pathing. But still as you keep saying SoGm is the BEST prove it with an actual screen shot in a dungeon or VQ with high AoE and I'll prove it with the same setup minus the SoGm with an orders nec i'll even go as far to use all your builds to make it fair. with a time of completion would be fair

Azazello · Apr 06, 2012, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Maybe stop talking about theoretical DPS which you seem unable to calculate, look at the downtime and damage curves assosiated with your build and read up on diminishing returns? Those 89 DPS you get in your dream circumstances with 3 targets hit on every single scythe swing is still less then what SoGM actually delivers tested and proven. And it doesn't need fairytale circumstances to do it either.

The only reason you proclaim orders to be good, is that you haven't actually taken a good look at the numbers.

If hitting 3 targets at a time is 'fairytale circumstances' you're doing it wrong. Let me tell you what you sound like: "Splinter weapon needs 4 targets adjacent to each other to get its full damage, it's useless except in fairytale circumstances".

I took two dervs to master of damage and ootv increased dps by 21. WHEN you're hitting 3 targets, that's 63. It raised my autoattack damage from spear by 14. That's 77, from one skill. Aside from splinter, the only skill on your team that does that much damage is painful bond, and it takes 2 elites and 5 other skills across two bars to support that. I'm not telling you to use orders, I'm telling you it's idiotic to say they're crap, because all the orders skills are very good. They are quite niche however, so they do not fit in many teams. It's impossible to test the dps increase from dark fury/order of pain for scythe users because the adjacent dummies spend all their time dead, skewing the adrenaline gain from dark fury downwards so you can't do shit like knocklock with reapers sweep or chain twin moon sweep. I could put IH up to get the same effect before testing I guess. The adrenaline gain would still be lower than you get in actual play, not enough to spam wearying for example, but at least I could test what effect it has on dps when you get to double strike every hit with a pair of scythes.

Oh, and it turns out heroes use pious renewal just fine

Update: dark fury/order of pain added 27 dps to the dervs, 81 when hitting 3 targets, and 10 to my autoattack, total of 91. Going back to your earlier example, to do that much damage, [email protected] with 13 FC needs to hit 10 or more targets every time. Single target, orders does 3x as much damage as esurge. 2 targets, 3x as much. 3 targets, 3x as much. 4-9 targets, still does more damage. 10 or more targets, esurge hurts more. Another way to put it would be that half an orders bar does as much damage as one of your assassin bars. It may not fit in your team, but it certainly isn't crap.