Curse

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 03:23 AM // 03:23

About a month back I deleted my Paragon cause I was pretty sure I wasn't gonna use it anymore, I may have to eat my words on that one. ;p

After exploring Physical heroes for a bit, I've come to the conclusion that they're capable of dealing approximately 80% of the damage a human player would. And that they tendensate to deal damage in cycles, aka spike really hard for 5 sec total slackers for the next 5. The big issue about them is that in order to support more then a single physical player, you generally have to bring so much defense and healing that the loss ends up outweighing the potential gains. So since the AI patch I've believed that the only class capable of utilizing a triple physical frontline would be a paragon, and in this case specifically a imbagon because of the immense defence this build provides.

I will be making a fresh Paragon to test tomorrow, but without further ado this is the concept build I've come up with. And unless I turn out to be completely mistaken, I'm pretty sure this build will allow a paragon a great deal of effectiveness in all missions, dungeons and vanquishes throughout the game. On par with the meta.

The assassins have been tested to 74 DPS single target vs master of damage over 180 seconds, which is highly respectable. I've been able to get 80 but that included bleeding which is 6 DPS and recuired an extra attack on the bar.

Lanier · Apr 04, 2012, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Hmm, I'v been using a 2 melee hero physway for quite awhile and, well, I think you went a little overboard on the defense. That said, I still use dervs (which are sturdier than assassins), so that may account for the difference...

The 5 hero supporting cast that I use is:
SoS channeling/resto rit
curses/resto
MM/prots
Orders/channeling (for a second splinter copy + arage)
Tease smiter

Iv got the same number of resto heals and monk prots as you. In fact, the only difference is that I use SoA over shield guardian.

The "excessive defense" opinion comes from the fact that you are using an imbagon, a panic, and several more spirit bodies on top of the prots and heals. Thus, I am highly skeptical that being an imbagon or bringing panic is necessary.

Also, why no SoH? It increases physical damage big time.

Olle · Apr 04, 2012, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I say no more.

ultimak719 · Apr 04, 2012, 11:20 AM // 11:20

I would say get rid of your sogm rit for a n/mo orders/smite support hybrid. The rest looks pretty standard and good.

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Ever assuming that you use OoTV @ 18 points with 19 lifesteal per attack and 5 attacks hitting per second. Heroes will still not recast it before the previous instance runs out. Which means the maximum potential uptime without cons is 6\8 sec or 75% of the time. And a maximum added DPS of 71,25, on a character that sacrifices ~25,5% of it's health every 8 seconds. Brings no bodyblock and is bound to repeatedly pull unwanted attention.

SoGM in combination with SoS having Painful bond will outperform this easily!

And in reality, any orders builds I see performs significantly worse then these numbers suggests. Only place orders has is N/Mo or N/P orders in SoOSC.

loopysnoopy · Apr 04, 2012, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

SoGM in combination with SoS having Painful bond will outperform this easily!

And in reality, any orders builds I see performs significantly worse then these numbers suggests. Only place orders has is N/Mo or N/P orders in SoOSC.

While I agree with you on the SoGm you have got to be kidding on the fact that an orders necro is only useful in SoOsc. My warrior always takes either a hybrid orders or full orders and I have 2 more melee damagers in my team we would do significantly less damage with out the orders/hybrid orders.

Also why res sig ? flesh of my flesh would suffice also no SoH your damage is gunna be meh its a great spell to use on melee heroes. Alas its not too bad but I think in areas where there is general melee hate your going to struggle and the panic mes wont help in those areas for shutdown maybe instead of SoGm you could try tease ritu for the com line

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Hey, lucky for us this is VERY easy to test.

I ran 2x dagger spammers, 1 W/A enduring spammer and 1 WOTA A/W (testing on second acc so only have these available), with me autoattacking with spear @ zero attributes. First with orders buffing their damage, then without orders buffing their damage.

First result, 160 DPS average over 180 seconds. (With orders)
Second result, 126 DPS average over 180 seconds, without orders.

So, if we take the first number, 160, and subtract the second, 126. We get the average DPS added by an Order of the Vampire necromancer at 19 attributes. Under perfect circumstances.

160-126 = 34.

After that, I tested SoGM ritualist with 4 spirits, Pain, Shadowsong, Disenchantment and Anguish. At 15 attributes cause I didn't have +3 rune on this acc. With a channeling ritualist also at 15 attributes, with only painful bond on his bar.

DPS to beat is 34.

Average DPS over 180 seconds, done by 4 spirits, SoGM and Painful bond alone: 109.

And keep in mind that unlike the Orders necromancer + assassins, where both sins and me was locked on master of damage for the entire time. Spirits have single target damage and can't be locked on target, so they loose recorded DPS because they keep attacking the targets on the sides. In other words the SoGM ritualist does even more damage then 109 DPS.

Also, in a real situation you will have other utility on the orders bar. Spirits will miss, be out or range, there won't always be painful bond. Assassin heroes will miss, they will run between targets, get hexed, snared, bla bla bla.

None of this changes the simple truth though.

ORDERS IS CRAP!

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 02:55 PM // 14:55

There are very very few single skills that do 34+ dps, off the top of my head I would guess less than a dozen, mostly broken shit like splinter weapon and SoH. You can't call ootv crap without being laughed at, although I realise you're just using hyperbole for emphasis, since you're right in a way, because painful bond is one of those skills. On your bars, the only skills that have the potential to break 34 dps are: SoGM, painful bond, splinter weapon, and the minion skills. CoF if you pull big enough too, so 8/60.

Keep in mind that it's also a significant amount of pressure to take off your healers. For example, two of your bars use PwK, and that heals for about 65% of what ootv does, even counting the fact that it heals everyone, not just your physicals.

loopysnoopy · Apr 04, 2012, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Hey, lucky for us this is VERY easy to test.

I ran 2x dagger spammers, 1 W/A enduring spammer and 1 WOTA A/W (testing on second acc so only have these available), with me autoattacking with spear @ zero attributes. First with orders buffing their damage, then without orders buffing their damage.

First result, 160 DPS average over 180 seconds. (With orders)
Second result, 126 DPS average over 180 seconds, without orders.

So, if we take the first number, 160, and subtract the second, 126. We get the average DPS added by an Order of the Vampire necromancer at 19 attributes. Under perfect circumstances.

160-126 = 34.

After that, I tested SoGM ritualist with 4 spirits, Pain, Shadowsong, Disenchantment and Anguish. At 15 attributes cause I didn't have +3 rune on this acc. With a channeling ritualist also at 15 attributes, with only painful bond on his bar.

DPS to beat is 34.

Average DPS over 180 seconds, done by 4 spirits, SoGM and Painful bond alone: 109.

And keep in mind that unlike the Orders necromancer + assassins, where both sins and me was locked on master of damage for the entire time. Spirits have single target damage and can't be locked on target, so they loose recorded DPS because they keep attacking the targets on the sides. In other words the SoGM ritualist does even more damage then 109 DPS.

Also, in a real situation you will have other utility on the orders bar. Spirits will miss, be out or range, there won't always be painful bond. Assassin heroes will miss, they will run between targets, get hexed, snared, bla bla bla.

None of this changes the simple truth though.

ORDERS IS CRAP!

SoGm ritu does more damage but it to has the flaws and while your using hero melee why not buff them its okay to have a cushion effect but mass AoE will wipe the spirits out while orders have enchant stripping etc I still say if your using more then 2 melee bring orders. PS depending on your orders bar I usualy have mine nec/P with spear shouting gfte find there weakness etc to bring up the damage packet also blood bond says hi to relieving healing a bit which takes pressure off the monks nec rits or who ever is healing

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Don't need hyperbole

OoTV is crap, and if you wanna object to that simple fact, provide some numbers or a build to back it up with. And it's not 1 skill, it's 3. OoTV, Blood Renewal and Awaken The Blood

But, if I wanted to use Hyperbole I could. So here it is:

In practice, this bar will outdamage an OoTV necro with the 3 basic skills on his bar. Provided it has 11 fast casting and hits an average of 3 foes, and thats without a 40\40 set or even a staff.

Tadaaaaa

Yeah, single esurge every 10 sec hitting an average of 3 foes deals more damage then OoTV with 3 physicals. And way more reliably too

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 03:44 PM // 15:44

But you don't have esurge. I listed the skills you have that can do more than 34 DPS, feel free to show me any I may have missed. SF can also do more, but after that the aoe DD spells that can do more than 34 dps start getting pretty thin on the ground surprisingly.

BTW, if you do want to talk about hitting multiple targets, instead of using 3 physicals, use a single derv and you'll see more than 34 dps. Add a second derv and a paragon and things start looking a bit different. I don't run orders, but saying it's crap just makes you look like a fool.

mortenya · Apr 04, 2012, 03:58 PM // 15:58

i feel that orders is better when you give all your casters spears. generally i don't feel it is worth the investment if you are only running 2-3 physicals. might as well just use brutal or nightmare weapon.

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Hmm, I'v been using a 2 melee hero physway for quite awhile and, well, I think you went a little overboard on the defense. That said, I still use dervs (which are sturdier than assassins), so that may account for the difference...

The 5 hero supporting cast that I use is:
SoS channeling/resto rit
curses/resto
MM/prots
Orders/channeling (for a second splinter copy + arage)
Tease smiter

Iv got the same number of resto heals and monk prots as you. In fact, the only difference is that I use SoA over shield guardian.

The "excessive defense" opinion comes from the fact that you are using an imbagon, a panic, and several more spirit bodies on top of the prots and heals. Thus, I am highly skeptical that being an imbagon or bringing panic is necessary.

Also, why no SoH? It increases physical damage big time.

Didn't actually notice this post the first time. Others had flashier pictures.

This build is an attempt to make a fast build for a paragon. Something I have previously believed to be impossible apart from the Dagger Spam (P/A JDF Spammer) shout approach. Which basically made the Paragon a physical character in line with the rest of them. And a worse one then a primary assassin, ranger, warrior or dervish.
Instead of building upon the actual strengths of the paragon and transforing the increased defence it can provide in to offence.

Testing WoTA sins I managed to get 74 DPS vs Master of Damage, and they also give armor ignoring AoE damage on top of this. While the different dervish builds only provided a maximum of around 50 DPS. That said they did include deep wound and of course hitting multiple targets, but the AOE part of this build is well covered by the double splinters @16 attribute points.

I am also quite aware that SoH is downright amazing, but incorportaing it in to the build would recuire swapping out or changing either the Panic or UA/Channeling bar. And I'm not convinced a single smite monk would be able to outperform the Panic, nor am I convinced that the single target damage it would provide would compensate for the loss of the second splinter copy.

The alternative to this would be to test Cracked Armor on the mesmer or MM, or Anthem of Envy on the Paragon since that works on spirits too. If I figure I need more single target damage.

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 04:05 PM // 16:05

That actually reminds me, is two splinters enough for 3 physicals and a mm? I run two with two physicals and no minions yet still have a fair bit of downtime on it. One copy would do similar dps to your entire 8th bar (discounting painful bond

) if you have enough downtime for it to be cast on recharge, although it would be much lower single target obviously.

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

But you don't have esurge. I listed the skills you have that can do more than 34 DPS, feel free to show me any I may have missed. SF can also do more, but after that the aoe DD spells that can do more than 34 dps start getting pretty thin on the ground surprisingly.

BTW, if you do want to talk about hitting multiple targets, instead of using 3 physicals, use a single derv and you'll see more than 34 dps. Add a second derv and a paragon and things start looking a bit different. I don't run orders, but saying it's crap just makes you look like a fool.

Esurge is what I would replace the SoGM with if I was to replace it. And using a dervish would loose me 25 DPS single target per assassin and the double copy of splinter weapon makes the extra AoE damage useless.

If you wanna keep whining about how amazing Orders is, please make your own thread. Or at least post a frigging build that includes other skills pushing the Orders DPS up a bit. Because in this thread the only thing that flies is numbers or good arguements in the cases where numbers can't easily be provided. Aka builds that can't be tested effectively vs Master of Damage because he simply just stands there doing nothing. Examples would be interrupt based builds or action based builds such SS necros on Empathy. (Which yes, are bad)

If I can't come up with a reasonable way to prove a build is effective, I don't use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

That actually reminds me, is two splinters enough for 3 physicals and a mm? I run two with two physicals and no minions yet still have a fair bit of downtime on it. One copy would do more dps than your entire 8th bar if you have enough downtime for it to be cast on recharge, although it would be much lower single target obviously.

No need to have splinter weapon up on more then 2 characters at any given time. If they both attack the same group it will be dead within 2-3 seconds anyhow. So single target damage is way more useful.

Azazello · Apr 04, 2012, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I'm not whining about how amazing it is, like I said, I don't even use it. I'm telling you you're embarrassing yourself when you try to say it's crap. Keep at it, by all means.

mortenya · Apr 04, 2012, 04:22 PM // 16:22

if i can get groups to ball up a bit, i always like orders when running 2-3 barrage heroes with my ranger.

loopysnoopy · Apr 04, 2012, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Here's 2 of my typical order builds that I use when bringing me-lee

1st straight up Nec/P

Attributes 12+4 in blood,Soul reaping 8+1,Command 10

Cultist's Fervor|Dark Fury/ Mark of Fury|Order of Pain|Blood Bond|Find their Weakness!|Go for the eyes!|Sols/or anything|Awaken the Blood

2nd Hybrid Rit/Nec channeling 12+4,Spawning 3+1,Blood 12

less power from the orders but it suffices with the spirits and been a utility too.

Blood Bond|Dark Fury/Mark of Fury|OoP|SoS|Ancestors Rage|Splinter Weapon|Spirit Siphon|Awaken the Blood

Both heros have a spear with either focus or sheild

the numbers on these i'm not 100% sure as I cant login atm

Gabs88 · Apr 04, 2012, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

I'm not whining about how amazing it is, like I said, I don't even use it. I'm telling you you're embarrassing yourself when you try to say it's crap. Keep at it, by all means.

It is crap, and I have the goddamn numbers to prove it. And if people ran some actual tests themselves there is no way they could come to any other conclusion in relation to hero teams.

The only place where OoTV is good is in SoOSC and even there it's performance is questionable in comparison to both snows and RoJ-monks.

loopysnoopy · Apr 04, 2012, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

The only place where OoTV is good is in SoOSC and even there it's performance is questionable in comparison to both snows and RoJ-monks.

Are you just plainly daft SoOsc yes I understand OoTV its not just used there its used in FoW,UW,DoA many many dungeons and i'm talking about SC's which are not listed on the wiki

all I will say is if your going to flame any one that disagrees with you when there pointing out little things to help that 80% damage that heros do while been melee to up it slightly.

Good luck with your build