Curse

Aria Frost · Feb 24, 2012, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm still deeply skeptical about Vital Weapon. Even if it's used well, it appears hard to slot into a team. ST Rits are by nature typically unnecessary, and it's not easy to squeeze damage from their bars either, unless I completely replace the SoGM (which I am loath to do).

It could be slotted in SoGM too. Though I never tried it before.

Chthon · Feb 24, 2012, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I can't see the point in Lava Arrows; I dislike the skill because of its short range.

Lava Arrows was buffed to full range ages ago.

As compared to Immolate:

12 less damage on the primary target (@18 fire)
no burning on the primary target (probably irrelevant since the SF-mimicry guy is causing longer burning)
hits 2 extra foes in nearby range
twice as spammable
5e cost instead of 10e (irrelevant unless EA+FA are stripped, since net cost is 1e for both 5e and 10e spells)
projectiles can be stopped by walls

Again, I'm looking at this for the EA build only. Lava Arrows would only distract the SF-mimicry guy from casting SF.

Quote:

How's this look to you as a UA replacement (not Invoke)?

I run UA so rarely it's hard for me to say.

Quote:

I was considering Gaze of Fury + Restoration somewhere, but I really have no idea (not tested) how well heroes use Gaze to kill Restoration for res.

Not that it fits in this discussion, but you mentioning Restoration gave me an idea. This would be a fantastic rez for a ST build. Just recast it to kill the first spirit.

Jeydra · Feb 25, 2012, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Lol, I'm an idiot. I'll try out Lava Arrows. Being spammable may not be an advantage though, if the AI winds up casting it more often than it does (say) Rodgort's.

Tried using the 3rd Mesmer, the difference between the EA Fire and the third Mesmer is noticeable, although not very big, in general. So it's not a complete replacement - forcing 7 points into Command means you have to fail the breakpoint on Fast Casting, as well.

Chthon · Feb 25, 2012, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol, I'm an idiot. I'll try out Lava Arrows. Being spammable may not be an advantage though, if the AI winds up casting it more often than it does (say) Rodgort's.

Before the last AI update, it would use Lava Arrows (and just about anything else) before it would even think of using Rodgorts. (See my first post i nthis thread.) Post-update, the skill usage seems acceptable.

Plutoman · May 01, 2012, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Just came back recently to play a bit of GW with the advent of the beta, and was looking for an adequate replacement. It was very obvious off the start that invoke lacked its initial power.

I've not really found anything successful; anything fire related tend to be weak against large groups of mesmers. I'm not initially sure of what the difference is, as invoke is a 1s cast, chain is 2s, l-orb is 2s.. The lack of adequate utility slots while maintaining a fairly spammable chain of damage on a fire ele is frustrating, too. Just the swap to a fire ele or two caused immediate wipes against Wind Riders in EotN (assuming no micro, if I set up properly it was simple enough - but the point is in the comparison, not the fact) while invoke ele's, even post-update, served just fine against at least 1 group.

Invoke had the unique spread of a solid spike damage, a nearby AoE (while limited, it was more than enough for most situations and served as a single-target spike, too), an additional two damage skills for more spike support, and easily 3-4 utility skill slots with 8-10, sometimes 12, ranks in the utility attribute. 12, assuming a skill such as BiP is used (standard in my own team).

Have yet to find a good replacement for it - it was the rounded finishing point to a team, where you could fill any niche required without losing damage.

Jeydra · May 02, 2012, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Wind Riders are nasty, especially if you ball up into their stacked Cry of Frustrations. Invoke Eles are just as vulnerable though. Not sure what's causing your wipes.

Anyway I've more or less come to the conclusion that the best replacements for Invoke Eles are the E/P EA Fire template and some strange hybrid N/P bar. This is what I have at the moment (that is, equipped on my hero):

11 Death Magic
11 Soul Reaping
8 Command

Icy Veins [E]
Deathly Chill
Masochism
Putrid Bile
Deathly Swarm
"Fall Back!"
"We Shall Return!"
Signet of Sorrow

Stack up on the Minors and Majors and Superiors however you want to. I dislike the dual spec on the damage skills, but no choice: Discord, while decent, needs to be used more by heroes + it's conditional. At least Masochism buffs both damage attributes, and high Soul Reaping means the hero will always be able to use "Fall Back!". Some variant of this is probably the best cold damage replacement for an Invoke Ele.

It's very possible that this bar can be improved, in particular skills like Blood of the Master, Death Nova, "Stand Your Ground!", "Never Surrender!", an Animate spell, Signet of Return and even Res Sig are all possibilities. But it's a hero I use rarely, even more rarely since I barely use my heroes at all these days, so yeah.

Elsewise the E/Me Mimicry bar is great for damage (balled mobs die noticeably faster with two Mimicry Eles) but I generally never have the room to use it.

Premium Unleaded · May 02, 2012, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Wouldn't 11/10/9 be better for FB's breakpoint?
And which skill would be the one to swap out if putrid exploson were to be taken?

Gabs88 · May 02, 2012, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Jeydra is probably using 11+1+3 and 11+3 runes there to top off the damage. In that case missing FB's breakpoint is not too importaint.

Plutoman · May 02, 2012, 09:39 PM // 21:39

The Necro bar has a few interesting possibilities. I would most probably run with a /Mo and go secondary protection myself, but that's merely a personal preference. Half the time I'm vanquishing I'm rolling a conset just for the sake of it anyways, so FB is not usually the most important part.

IV has some potential there, so I'll give it a try. I'm disliking the lack of extra slots on the Fire EA bars, as I've generally run them as mixed utility and the lack of adequate spots for those utility skills is frustrating. The only skill with a recharge that's manageable is fireball, annoyingly enough. No armor penetration, either. Mainly, though, the lack of utility slots is the killer as that's where I've stored a chunk of my protection skills. Dual-backline w/ BiP & shelter + 2 invoke/prot's, and a triple mesmer base w/ e-surge/, dom/ill mixes, dealt a heck of a punch against most anything.

Wind riders; I'm nigh positive it's the reduction of utility skills that's causing the general fault. I was running several fast-cast protection spells, and having to cut back to just one or two on each ele hurt dramatically.

When it comes down to it, adding fourth, sometimes fifth, mesmer is usually the best bet I'm finding, but that necro bar has potential. Great e-management, too. Doubt I'll ever bring back an MM, though. Maybe another rit.. I could always throw in an SoS or SoGM bar *shrug*

In the meantime, I'll run my few vanquishes, keep my modding of skyrim up (nice little past time..) and just see how the heroes go. Also see how the next ele update goes, too.

Jeydra · May 03, 2012, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Wouldn't 11/10/9 be better for FB's breakpoint?
And which skill would be the one to swap out if putrid exploson were to be taken?

You really don't want to copy that build because it is completely experimental ... I mean it works, but its exact skills are very likely subpar. The first skill to drop is probably Signet of Sorrow, "We Shall Return!" isn't too good either. As for Putrid Explosion, I really want to use it too but doesn't it conflict with the MM?

I have 8 spec on Command because I already have two 9-spec Commands and the third Fall Back only needs to cover a few seconds of downtime. It's still better to have 8 Command over 3 because every now and then I hit "Fall Back!" and the hero with it isn't in range of me, so I trigger the next one, etc.

What exact teambuild are you running Plutoman?

Another idea I could use is both "Incoming!" and "Fall Back!", compensating for the lack of useful Death elites, and then spec out the third Fall Back for something else. Not very confident about that, though.

Morte66 · May 03, 2012, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Another idea I could use is both "Incoming!" and "Fall Back!", compensating for the lack of useful Death elites, and then spec out the third Fall Back for something else. Not very confident about that, though.

I tried that. If you use them they cast both at once, so you get the sum of their healing rather than the sum of their durations. It's no help for perma-speed, assuming that's what you're after.

Plutoman · May 04, 2012, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Replacing something like this;

Sort've an approximation, I've been away for a while. Reverse Hex could be swapped with Remove hex if needed, but energy's not too much of an issue.

Thinking I'd be best off swapping in some more mesmers with some utility tacked on, or trying out that necro bar. Might be able to rework the fire ele bar a bit, take 5 core skills, ele attune + 4 damage skills, and roll 3 utility, but I haven't really tested anything.

Guess I'll give a few things a try and see how they work. Haven't worked on these bars in a long time.

Edit: Not too bad, invoke's horrid on the exhaustion though. Ran Raisu @ 12:05 with wrong runes (all the wrong skills had superior runes.. no attributes over 12), wrong equipment, no speed boosts (including FB), no skipped mobs, and stopping to pick up holiday drops. Had everything set up for the AFK GoM runs, wasn't going to spend the cash or time to switch it back. Definitely needs an alternative, though, energy management was horribly inefficient with the exhaustion.

Gabs88 · May 04, 2012, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Ehm, just to comment on that teambuild, since there's so much I don't like I'm just gonna comment on the parts i think is plain wrong:
5x ress = too much
3x Mistrust = Too much in my experience, 2 is the sweet spot.
Invoke Eles = Don't use em, they stop casting once their exhaustion builds up a bit, if you wanna do air use Elemental Attunement instead, they can handle 1x Chain Lightning Alright
Spiritual Pain and Unnatural Signet = Great skills!
Hex removal is nice but unnessesary for casters.

Plutoman · May 05, 2012, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Ehm, just to comment on that teambuild, since there's so much I don't like I'm just gonna comment on the parts i think is plain wrong:
5x ress = too much
3x Mistrust = Too much in my experience, 2 is the sweet spot.
Invoke Eles = Don't use em, they stop casting once their exhaustion builds up a bit, if you wanna do air use Elemental Attunement instead, they can handle 1x Chain Lightning Alright
Spiritual Pain and Unnatural Signet = Great skills!
Hex removal is nice but unnessesary for casters.

Beyond the fact that I haven't played much...

1) 5x rez is definitely not too much considering 80% of my play is in areas when I lose if I wipe.

2) Depends on how they are used. If consistently calling targets, it can be a bit overwhelming - still useful, though. Better than many other skills. If left to their own devices, it goes on multiple different enemy casters (heroes will lock on single targets via standard AI priority, if not called). However, it's a good point and considering something like an unnatural signet could be better.

3) Been away for a while. Notice the first line - I'm trying to replace them.

5) Again, area-dependent.

I usually change skills on entering most areas. It's only an approximate framework for a build. I rarely just load and play.. builds were the reason I enjoyed this game. I always look at the enemies I face and load up on blind, hex removal, hexes, daze/interruption, depending on what the dangerous enemies in an area are. You get the idea.

Anyways: Not to get all defensive (guess I have, a bit), but play-style determines a build more than anything else. There's definite reasons I've chosen most of the skills (spirits, minions, intentionally avoided, for example). Builds based more defensively, but a similar concept, completed the DoA foundry HM as an ele primary running invoke, without cons. :P

Now, on to my issue. An adequate replacement for the ele's. Air is not an adequate line without invoke being used; thunderclap and blinding surge are sometimes useful, but only in more niche situations when I need the conditions (an ineptitude often covers blind). The rest of the air line is very weak, involving only two reasonably good skills. Fire is obviously the next possibility; earth lacks damage and casting time, water lacks damage extensively. Fire has weaknesses; namely, lack of armor penetration, lack of immediate spike damage, adjacent AoE on many spells. Less utility slots, as I need 4 skills to maintain a set of damage line-up.

In choosing a fire replacement for the invoke ele line-up; what's the preferred replacement? Preferably, in a manner to maintain the defensive protection line-up, with an appropriate attribute spread. 4 fire skills, ele attunement, 3 prot skills/para skills? 3 fire, glyph of ele power, ele attunement, 3 others? Should fire attunement be used alongside ele attunement? The skills are higher energy, and protect skills are energy-intensive, but a BiP backs them also.

What about that necro bar? Enough damage on the death magic line-up? IV requires a hefty investment into SR, while DM contains most of the damage spells - this of course immensely hurts any secondary potential, but an 8-spec could be ran with some appropriate runes. They'd be runed high to keep aggro off the BiP and ST (as the mesmers are). I'm considering this off the top of my head, finals next week and my circuits final is worth 40% of my grade, not to mention Diff EQ... so not much time to test out other combinations.

Swingline · May 05, 2012, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Don't put a rez on a healer unless its UA. If another hero is taking spike damage while the healer is stuck in a 4 sec rez cast its going to get bad.

My current team setup is:

Plutoman · May 05, 2012, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Don't put a rez on a healer unless its UA. If another hero is taking spike damage while the healer is stuck in a 4 sec rez cast its going to get bad.

It stays disabled on healers, micro'd if needed.

If you were to open up two slots on each ele, which skills would you remove? I'm going to give it a try with AoR and FA removed, though I do like AoR. The extra heal can be substantial on high energy spells.

Swingline · May 05, 2012, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

If you were to open up two slots on each ele, which skills would you remove? I'm going to give it a try with AoR and FA removed, though I do like AoR. The extra heal can be substantial on high energy spells.

AoR is useful beyond its heals and energy, its a good cover enchantment for FA and EA. I wouldn't drop FA or AoR because it works too well for me.

Plutoman · May 06, 2012, 03:02 AM // 03:02

That would thus imply dropping two damage skills. FA's a rap, it's not needed for e-management. Probably keep AoR and drop a damage skill. Been running leg survivor's at the GoM and haven't done anything else.

Tess80 · May 07, 2012, 11:31 AM // 11:31

I've been running a Water necro lately:

Water Trident
Blurred Vision
Deep Freeze
Maelstrom
*optional
*optional
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Water Attunement

With 12 water magic and 10+1+1 soul reaping, this leaves enough for a secondary attribute. Water has a few solid skills though (Steam if your team causes fire, Rust for AoE damage and signet hate, Ice Spikes for an AoE and snare), so I usually bring those, but good options are also in the curses/blood trees, and even bringing Blinding Flash is viable at 8 Air Magic.

Also, you can replace Water Trident with Shatterstone, but I find Water Trident to be more effective, and the knockdowns trigger often, especially when enemies are snared.

Gabs88 · May 07, 2012, 11:57 AM // 11:57

If you're gonna be running something like that it's better to make a build for a primary ele. It's significantly more damage.