Curse

Azazello · Feb 22, 2012, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Exactly Chthon. But it fits the three criteria listed. BTW Swingline, are you sure we're talking about using 3 bars to do what 3 invokes did? I hadn't seen that mentioned, but there's plenty of ways to do that.

Wenspire · Feb 22, 2012, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Actually, 3-4 barrage rangers attacking the same target (and group if there are enemies near target) does quite a bit of spike damage pretty quickly and even-more-so if Orders and/or ESoH is up. Considering recharge time of Barrage and bow attack speed, it holds it's own fairly well, IMO. Unfortunely, bow/melee users are hurt more by a larger number of hexes/conditions than casters.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2012, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Exactly Chthon. But it fits the three criteria listed.

Forget the 3 criteria listed and look to the actual criteria. Jeydra and I already had a long discussion in which I was the one defending SF -- and I at least posted real, viable builds in support of it. The upshot is that SF isn't as spiky as Invoke+CL was, and that's reason to want something different for a Invoke+CL replacement.

The alternative is to run a different team configuration that pulls some spike power from somewhere else and relies on those two builds more for DPS. That's fine. That's what I do with my ele for 7H right now. It's just not replacing Invoke+CL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Actually, 3-4 barrage rangers attacking the same target (and group if there are enemies near target) does quite a bit of spike damage pretty quickly and even-more-so if Orders and/or ESoH is up. Considering recharge time of Barrage and bow attack speed, it holds it's own fairly well, IMO. Unfortunely, bow/melee users are hurt more by a larger number of hexes/conditions than casters.

3-4 Barrage rangers (which is really 4-5 counting the Orders) do not fit on a 7H team. You're going to be kicking off stuff like Panic and spirit/minion walls to make space for them, and that's not a very good trade.

Azazello · Feb 22, 2012, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Forget the 3 criteria listed and look to the actual criteria. Jeydra and I already had a long discussion in which I was the one defending SF -- and I at least posted real, viable builds in support of it.

How did that work out? You missed the fact that this is a QQ thread, not a search for viable builds. A new criteria will be added as a new build is suggested. Some quotes:

@Dervish + other melee - forgot to say a hallmark of Invoke Eles is that they deal damage at range. Dervishes do not.
@Searing Flames - this skill doesn't provide damage on demand. If I call a target, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s + 2.75s (EBVAS + AP + Lightning Orb).
@Discord - being conditional is a big strike against it as well because it forces me to AP
@Minions - already using them, difficult to use two MMs at full potential in many areas.
@Death magic - there aren't many good non-minion skills in Death Magic
@Curses - there're a few direct damage Curses spells, but they are all plagued by long recharge. Damage on demand isn't available.
@Icy Veins - if Death Magic and its array of damaging spells does not work, what good is Icy Veins, Signet of Sorrow and Angorodon's Gaze?
@Rits - I only have two Rits and they're both occupied too
@Mesmers - The drawback is the smaller spec in Command, and the fact that Dom Mesmers can use every point in Dom, FC and Inspiration
@Rangers - the spec for Rangers is difficult because you need 14 Expertise.
@Invoke - they don't get zeroed out, sure, but they stop casting Invoke. At some maximum energy the AI stops using Exhaustion spells.
@Fire - The big drawback with this is of course there are plenty of areas where monsters have absurd armour vs. Fire.
@Invoke vs shatterstone - more reliable AoE, lower recharge, heroes stack it against a target and will keep stacking it until the target dies
@Earth - Asking Earthquake and Dragon's Stomp to replace Invoke Lighting is like asking Koss to gather aggro like EFGJack. Single-target damage isn't spectacular either and mostly relies on projectiles

So we have ruled out warriors, assassins, and dervishes. We have ruled out soul reaping (on the basis that they can't put points in any other att for some reason), curses, and death necros. We have ruled out rits, rangers and mesmers. We have ruled out earth, water, fire, and air magic, so eles are out. Working with the 'actual criteria', if the new hero had not been added, all that is left are blood necros, monks, and paragons. Feel free to design a good AoE paragon build.

Do you see now why I think it's past time to clarify exactly what we want from the build?

The only real option left is the channeling rit, since we did get a new hero. Personally I think the att spread on a dom mesmer or emanagement on a ranger is doable, and I don't understand the objection to IV since it can sub death as I suggested, but apparently they're out.

LexTalionis · Feb 22, 2012, 07:07 AM // 07:07

@Chthon

You post very many valid points against rangers which I actually do wholeheartedly agree with, but I was more thinking something along the lines of abusing the fact that pets have been quite significantly buffed though, akin to the petway teams. It makes a refreshing change from Necromancer Minions. Beast Mastery worked by removing AR from the targets the pet attacked, IIRC, and now that everything is at AR 60-77, a BM of say, 8 would be -40 = 20 armor vs a 60 AR target (I may be wrong on this!). Combine with the pet 33% damage buff and it might actually be quite interesting.

Of course, Melandru's Assault is still horribly bugged, but I was thinking something more along the lines of MoP abuse.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2012, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Chthon

You post very many valid points against rangers which I actually do wholeheartedly agree with, but I was more thinking something along the lines of abusing the fact that pets have been quite significantly buffed though, akin to the petway teams. It makes a refreshing change from Necromancer Minions.

You'd basically need a whole petway team to have enough pets to make a wall.

Quote:

Beast Mastery worked by removing AR from the targets the pet attacked, IIRC, and now that everything is at AR 60-77, a BM of say, 8 would be -40 = 20 armor vs a 60 AR target (I may be wrong on this!).

What?!? Either you are explaining you meaning poorly or you totally misunderstand the mechanics. Please try to clarify what you mean.

LexTalionis · Feb 22, 2012, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

What?!? Either you are explaining you meaning poorly or you totally misunderstand the mechanics. Please try to clarify what you mean.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Beast_Mastery

Negates armor rating on targets attacked by an animal companion. Up to a threshold rank of Level/2+2, five points are negated per rank, thereafter two points.

Jeydra · Feb 22, 2012, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Cthon your post about Rangers hit almost all the important points. I'll add that you can't spec 9 Command without skimping on Expertise or Marksmanship, both of which have severe consequences. Ranger damage is also affected by line of sight, which is a pretty major drawback. Roughly ~80 damage after armour should be good enough though.

Thing about the E/Me Mimicry bar is that if the hero chooses not to use SF, his other spells are all strictly damage-oriented (and in the case of Rodgort's Invocation, actually does more damage than SF). I think it's a worthy bar. It doesn't have Fall Back, so it's not a complete Invoke replacement even without considering monsters with huge armour vs. Fire, but it's possible to shift points around elsewhere and bring Fall Back on other heroes.

I've not seriously considered pets. I hear they suffer quite a bit from pet AI; the other big problem of course is that they're melee. AoE damage may also be lacking as well. A weird hybrid Incendiary Arrows bar with pets might work, but the spec is going to be hard - four attribute lines, unless the AI will use Incendiary Arrows even if it has no spec in Wilderness Survival (does it?).

Do you have a preliminary pet bar?

Gabs88 · Feb 22, 2012, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Pet bars I have like no clue about, but using a Strike as One pet bar could be pretty hillarious. Pets move instantly to their targets then

Jeydra · Feb 22, 2012, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Must not forget though that committing the elite slot on a Ranger is a significant investment - it means you give up on Incendiary Arrows, Rampage As One, etc. If pets don't run fast enough it's probably possible to kick them there faster with Fall Back.

Elsewise I just unlocked Zei Ri, and now taking a look at all possible useful spells in Channeling Magic:

Agony - from experience it's not that strong but it's usable
Ancestor's Rage - likely stacks well, probably worth mainbar
Bloodsong - already used
Channeled Strike - if holding DWG or maybe Cruel was Daoshen this skill is probably going to be core, unless it pwns the hero's energy
Clamour of Souls - can't see it as worth it. 69 damage, even in an AoE, is just plain low
Cruel was Daoshen - basically this vs. DWG, depending on whether the elite is necessary
Destruction - nice animation, but from experience it's not that good
Destructive was Glaive - 20% armour penetration is going to be sweet, but according to Wiki the hero takes micro to actually use DWG. No idea if he actually drops it
Essence Strike - poor man's energy management
Gaze of Fury - probably worth mainbar
Lamentation - probably worth mainbar
Painful Bond - have this hero cast it instead of SoS and save an extra skill slot there?
Signet of Spirits - already used
Spirit Boon Strike - if Painful Bond ends up on this hero, this will likely take its place on the SoS
Spirit Burn - might be able to provide more burning for SF, not much use otherwise
Spirit Rift - I'm deeply skeptical of the cast time + delayed effect, although AoE cracked armour is great despite being only adjacent
Spirit Siphon - as always top tier energy management
Splinter Weapon - heroes cast this on minions apparently, but I don't notice it very often. I've seen Razah cast it on Vanguard Assassin as well, but very rarely.

That's it for Channeling Magic. There don't appear to be enough good skills around. A lot will depend on how good the spells are after armour penetration from DWG or Cruel was Daoshen. Spawning Power is quite barren and so is Communing. The rest of the bar might go to Rit heals or Command shouts; in the first case though the hero directly competes with N/Rt healers - actually worse, because it can't hold PwK.

Looks like I theorycrafted myself into a Rt/P hole ...

EDIT: DWG hero AI is ridiculous. I'm not sure this idea is worth pursuing. If it's going to take micro every minute, I might as well run two E/Me Mimicry Eles and micro Mimicry.
EDIT #2: Lex about Rupture Soul since you say heroes use it well - what's the point? Unless you've got Gaze of Fury to kill a spirit near enemy monsters (and even then it only works if the mob has spirits) I don't get the idea behind Rupture Soul.

Gabs88 · Feb 22, 2012, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Must not forget though that committing the elite slot on a Ranger is a significant investment - it means you give up on Incendiary Arrows, Rampage As One, etc. If pets don't run fast enough it's probably possible to kick them there faster with Fall Back.

I said hillarious not good

Personally I've settled on 3 Mesmers, 2 esurge and 1 panic, 2 with shatter enchantment, 2 with mistrust, 2 with cry of frustration. All have Spiritual Pain (3x spiritual pain is fking brilliant as it's just enough to pretty much instapop hostile HM spirits in a huge AoE) and 3x Unnatural Signet. Gives a very good mix of interrupts, enchantment removal, AoE and single target damage. And esurgers have good enough energy management to keep 2x Fall Backs up. Can go 3x but i prefer to have ress on my panic hero instead of fall back.

Rest of team is Discord/resto, SoS/resto, SoGM (With earthbind, so i can KD KD immune mobs or watch asura golems self KD them selves) and the last slot is usually AoTL with ST prot in corpse light areas.

Completed all of NM and HM EoTN with this and done good times all the way. And I love beeing able to simply drop an esurge mesmer to make room for another human player. Only bar im really concidering to change is the Discord/resto but not sure what i'd change it too. Perhaps a channeling/resto rit.

LexTalionis · Feb 22, 2012, 03:14 PM // 15:14

@Jeydra

Enemies usually end up balling around my spirits which are bodyblocking them. When this happens, heroes will hit them with rupture soul, blinding all of them for about 11 seconds while doing a lot of burst damage. Ironically, this keeps my other spirits alive for longer, because without rupture soul, they'd melee my spirits to death pretty quickly.

I'd like to point out the AoE effect is pretty large and the blind duration is ridiculously long. Turning every single spirit you have into a 110ish damage AoE shouldn't be underestimated - you also left out Explosive Growth, which really isn't that bad if you're minmaxing spike damage.

It also lets me use Vampirism as a PbAoE nuke if I wanted, but that's just silly.

Heroes do use Incendiary at 0-2 Wilderness Survival. Done that many times on Anton, who runs a pet >_> 0-2 is actually good for me because it triggers fragility more. Pets are quite unlike minions, they're obnoxiously difficult to kill in HM (80 AR, 33% Universal damage resistance) and they don't suffer from DP. Even at 0 BeastMastery, I'd still bring one in PvE.

I do silly builds.

Azazello · Feb 22, 2012, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Agony is fairly decent. Including recharge times, @16 channeling and 10 spawning power it's 14-15 dps, assuming 2+ targets in earshot range. It gets pretty obnoxious with stuff like soul twisting or rit lord (not that heroes can use it), going up to 50ish dps if there are 5+ targets. You can get over 80 dps from it in theory, if not practice (10+ targets + soul twisting with no other spirits). The problem is that no matter what you do with it, it's pressure, it doesn't compress, it's not the damage on demand that you're looking for. You won't see big chunks go missing from red bars due to agony, it will just quietly tick away.

Similar damage on demand problems with arage and rupture, and pretty much all the high powered rit aoe actually. You can't just pick any target and blow him and everyone near him to bits. However, if you're now debating moving fall back onto other bars, there's all kinds of stuff you can do. Likewise if you're considering replacing two bars instead of just one, and especially if you're going to run 2 new bars neither of which has fall back.

Wenspire · Feb 22, 2012, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Beast_Mastery

Negates armor rating on targets attacked by an animal companion. Up to a threshold rank of Level/2+2, five points are negated per rank, thereafter two points.

Is that new? I don't recall ever seeing that mentioned before. If that still hold true even after the new enemy AR drop, that's pretty nice.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2012, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Beast_Mastery

Negates armor rating on targets attacked by an animal companion. Up to a threshold rank of Level/2+2, five points are negated per rank, thereafter two points.

It seems that you are the victim of an idiot wiki editor.

Let's try to set this right:

Beast Mastery functions exactly like weapon mastery, where the pet is a no-req, ~17-29 weapon. (Or ~15-25 for hearty; or ~20-32 for dire.) (All figures are potentially off by +/-1 due to possible rounding errors.)

That text from the wiki sounds like a mangled description of beast/weapon mastery. The increase ramp is correct, but the effect is wrong. Increasing mastery increases a variable usually called "baseline." Armor gets subtracted from baseline during the damage equation, so you could say that it "negates" armor, but that's misleading and leads people to interpret it the way you did -- as a subtraction from armor. It's not. Unless you invent negative armor, treating it as a subtraction from armor is going to give the wrong answer whenever you would hit zero armor. More importantly, it misled you about the fact that, just like weapon mastery, you need 12 points in beast mastery just to get base damage.

The 33% PvE pet buff is a straight multiplier applied after all buffs -- just like the old AScan.

I don't have a hero pet-based bar, and I'm not sure the AI problems are surmountable, but the obvious choice is to abuse the PvE pet buff by stacking lots of bonus damage. Good candidates would be SoH, GDW, Enraged Lunge, and Brutal Strike.

@Rupture Soul:
Silly player bar: Rt/Me; Channeling -> Cruel Was Doashen -> Boon of Creation -> Explosive Growth -> Soul Twisting -> Destruction -> Spirit Siphon -> Rupture Soul
Not sure if you could (or should) try to replicate that on a hero.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 23, 2012, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Searing Flames gives slower instagib damage, but makes it easier to spike targets later in the fight (or even targets after the initial target in many cases).

Expertise/Marks Rangers give stupidly high on-demand single target DPS, but lack any AoE component (excluding Splinter Weapon in the party somewhere).

Mind Blast and Ele Attunement Ele's give a good combination of both.

Now, shift the rest of your party to accommodate whatever your choice of the above builds doesn't do very well. Invoke isn't getting completely replaced; it's a testament to the fact that Guildwars has many, many unique skills (which is ultimately a good thing!)

Aria Frost · Feb 23, 2012, 10:46 AM // 10:46

@Jeydra

Vital Weapon is being applied when aggroing. Generally, such ST build is not heavy on energy, because shadowsong and anguish spirits last longer than union/displacement (allowing shelter to be resummoned more likely with ST up), and because each VW lasts long enough to not require frequent spamming (50s, during combat it's usually applied to at least half party).

Have you already tried the EA mimicry combined with Invoke+CL+Lighting Orb? Unless the energy issues are also due to heavy exhaustion, it could be a solution to keep up the blue bar. Also, Shock Arrow could be replaced with Glowing Gaze or Glowstone which have easier conditions to meet.

Chthon · Feb 24, 2012, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

This template feels like a good starting point:

16 Fire
13 Energy Storage

Searing Flames [E]
Arcane Mimicry
Immolate
Rodgort's Invocation
Glyph of Immolation
Liquid Flame
Fire Attunement
Aura of Restoration

+20% enchant weapon is essential, and even then there's downtime on Elemental Attunement.

An interesting observation on this build: You would think that you can't run this along with an ER ele since the hero might copy ER instead of EA. However, for some unknown reason, the herowill always pick EA over ER.

For the build itself, needs more e-management; suggest Glowing Gaze over Immolate. (I see you already did that in the kappa thread.) Also, I really question if Liquid Flame deserves a spot at all -- you're dedicating a skillslot to doing slightly more damage than SF, with conditional AOE, once every 15 sec. I'd rather see something else... maybe AoR to make it resilient as heck.

I'd also like to see Lava Arrows on the non-SF bar, but the hero will never use Rodgorts if it has Lava Arrows. (At least it wouldn't before the AI update. I need to check again.)

I'd also like to try to sneak Earthen Shackles in somewhere.

Overall, while I need to do some head-to-head testing in the same zones, this feels like it has more punch than two SF. Now, where to relocate the Fallback?

AndrewSX · Feb 24, 2012, 08:54 AM // 08:54

OK. Did some test, and i've found out that,if you play meele, Doublecast skills are quite awesome.

Take a standard old invoke bar, trow in Gust and go nuts.
Same for DDragon, put it in a SF bar.

MoI have always the issue of having worst non-elite skillset atm, but the elite works quite good if you're looking for a snare.

SSheat: haven't tested too much cuz is a overkill defense when you have already a ST/ER and aegis+PS, but shouldn't have problem to fit in a UG+stoning bar.

If you're a caster Energy Boon could take place of the Bip maybe; but haven't tried anything yet on the field about this one.

About caster looking for dmg (old invoke) you'll have to drop something that invokers were abel to do prolly. SF hasn't FB and spikish dmg on demand, for example.

Researc must go on..

Jeydra · Feb 24, 2012, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aria Frost

@Jeydra

Vital Weapon is being applied when aggroing. Generally, such ST build is not heavy on energy, because shadowsong and anguish spirits last longer than union/displacement (allowing shelter to be resummoned more likely with ST up), and because each VW lasts long enough to not require frequent spamming (50s, during combat it's usually applied to at least half party).

Have you already tried the EA mimicry combined with Invoke+CL+Lighting Orb? Unless the energy issues are also due to heavy exhaustion, it could be a solution to keep up the blue bar. Also, Shock Arrow could be replaced with Glowing Gaze or Glowstone which have easier conditions to meet.

I'm still deeply skeptical about Vital Weapon. Even if it's used well, it appears hard to slot into a team. ST Rits are by nature typically unnecessary, and it's not easy to squeeze damage from their bars either, unless I completely replace the SoGM (which I am loath to do). Anyone else tried Vital Weapon, can post results?

Also post-nerf Invoke doesn't run out of energy in the sense that its blue bar drops to zero, but rather that it exhausts itself to the point that it stops casting Invoke. Elemental Attunement doesn't help. Glyph of Energy would, but who's using it?

@Cthon - yes, the bar needs Glowing Gaze. I can't see the point in Lava Arrows; I dislike the skill because of its short range. Definitely will not run Earthen Shackles; the time taken to cast the snare is not worth its effects.

Mesmers can carry one Fall Back, but the sacrifice in FC / Inspiration is quite big. SoS can also carry one, but you'll have to find somewhere else to compensate for the healing. SoGM can definitely carry one, as can the EA Ele. MM can as well, but you will need to find Prot Spirit space elsewhere.

How's this look to you as a UA replacement (not Invoke)?

16 Channeling
10 Restoration
9 Command

Clamour of Souls [E]
Ancestor's Rage
Death Pact Signet / Flesh of my Flesh / Signet of Return
Protective was Kaolai
Spirit Light
Mend Body And Soul
"Fall Back!"
Spirit Siphon / Essence Strike

I was considering Gaze of Fury + Restoration somewhere, but I really have no idea (not tested) how well heroes use Gaze to kill Restoration for res.