Curse

AndrewSX · Feb 20, 2012, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Not arguing about the speed or effectiveness...but putting 2 meeles + splinter in a Necro human team and having the nec running gimped (r12 chan, r0 SP) spirits instead of Mop abuse.... especially if you're so good at pulling and balling with heroes and looking for speed/effectiveness... looks (forgive my words) plain stupid.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Fair call, it does, but it's been the most effective so far (although I haven't tried anything other than what I listed in that old thread). I don't even remember the reasoning behind this SoS bar tbh, something to do with running offensive communing spirits elsewhere, and having a slot left to PI ae guys trying to nuke my spirits... I think this bar has zero spirit conflicts with the best SoGM bar? The dps is about 30 lower than a proper SoS bar iirc. It was saved in my folder as 'mobile sos' so maybe that has something to do with it. I guess I just loaded it up to test the team build and kept going back to it since it worked best. Could definitely use some looking at now, thanks

Actually, watching how effective panic has been lately makes me want to rethink that illusion bar too!

Anyway, couple images from the rest of that run, playing normally (i.e just running in), rather than trying to pull with hero:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/gw027oi.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/gw022e.jpg/
First one is not a good shot to show what happened, but I took two steps right and they all balled up as melee mobs do. I wiped again on the pull after that second shot, and I can't blame the laptop for that, I noobed out fighting the guys under the bridge thing (directly ahead in the shot) and pulled the guys from above as well.

BTW it's about 15-16 mobs aggroed in the second shot, 11 or 12 of which are clumped on me, and as you can see, they're getting raped. Pulls of 8+ aren't all that rare imo, unless you're being careful for whatever reason. I would certainly try to aggro as few as possible in forgewright or foundry for example. Not that I'd take this team to foundry, learned that the hard way :P

And it looks like an allnighter for me. 6:40am now :P

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 11:32 PM // 23:32

It's easy to ball those monsters because they're all melee. It's like saying you can ball 30+ Raptors outside Rata Sum and therefore you ball 30+ monsters in general. Those screenshots can be representative, but you must make them so: in Rand, take screenshots of the first mob to the last, and count how many mobs you actually do ball + how many monsters there are each ball.

You will not get 10-15 monsters per ball. In the same way, you can see 10-15 monsters in the third room of Foundry, but you can't ball them without dying (or without a specific tank build).

Like I said, do Duncan. A lot can come out of that screenshot. You face a mixed mob that comes immediately after entering the area. Since you can ostensibly ball with a hero, you can bring Deep Freeze yourself at no cost (you're not the one doing balling, so what's the difficulty?). After you're done balling, cast Deep Freeze or any other in the area AoE spell you want, and get all eight Dwarves. Take the screenshot with /age. Post it, it'll be revealing.

I used the numbers 50 for Deep Freeze and 100 for Chain Lightning because you used them first. They are definitely untrue. The difference in damage is not so large. It doesn't matter though. Chain Lightning easily outdamages Deep Freeze (in my case at least) thanks to the imperfect balls, monsters dying, shorter recharge and the fact that Deep Freeze, like Shatterstone, cannot be stacked without micro. You might wonder why I mention the last point - answer is because Invoke Eles were my artillery damage characters, and I like having two of them. So even if one Shatterstone Ele is decent, there still needs to be a second source of Cold damage to fully fill the niche.

If you have a specific bar with spec + all eight skills to recommend, post it. Elsewise, I'll have to unlock Zei Ri to be able to comment more on the 3rd Dom Mes / Channeling Rit.

LexTalionis · Feb 21, 2012, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Personally, I've tried all sorts of weird stuff (and I mostly play casters) with Water Magic since the patch, and the only thing which I've found even remotely reasonably good at enemy balling is EBAS and Mirror of Ice - and even with that, you won't ball enemy casters and there's still weird enemy splits thanks to wonky aggro. Deep Freeze tended to be too slow with that 2 second cast to help ball things up (enemy group splits all over by then) - unless they were already balled up to begin with. Going into water magic, I often got better results speedwise with Water Trident than Shatterstone, which doesn't bode too well for Shatterstone.

Personally, I think rangers may show some promise - the energy issue is far from unsolvable and you only ever need 12 MMS at maximum anyway. They also have insane elemental resists. Going to tweak them and see.

Azazello · Feb 21, 2012, 04:34 AM // 04:34

In Rand, almost every pull has 6+ guys, even when you only pull one group at a time. Since deep freeze outdamages invoke at less than 6 guys, you're really clutching at straws now Jeydra, and I think you know it. Sticking to the 'you have to ball with heroes just because you said you could!' shit, even though it's completely irrelevant to whether deep freeze does more damage per cast than invoke. Telling me I have to run deep freeze on my necro, for whatever wonderful reason you have in your head. Ignoring the 9 mixed mobs balled in the first pic. Pretending that melee pulls aren't 'representative', as if only mixed pulls exist in the game. Who started with the 'unrepresentative' pics btw, with a shot of a 4pull in a VQ you could afk through?

You were wrong, just like I was about vapor blade, try to deal with it like an adult.

IF I get around to it at some point, I will post the pics you're asking for, but since most of what you're asking for is utterly irrelevant, it's not exactly a priority. Right now, I'm gonna go mow my lawn :P

Gabs88 · Feb 21, 2012, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

You were wrong, just like I was about vapor blade, try to deal with it like an adult.

Sorry but someone bringing derv heroes and talking about balling with heroes should not be sprouting such utter BS. You've been grasping at straws for two pages now and with no idea what you're talking about.

Shatterstone sucks
Vapor Blade really sucks
And Deep Freeze has a 15 sec cooldown, higher energy cost, issues because of the hex component which means you can't bring multiple copies and lower damage per target which means it's worce for any AP build. Most importaintly though, chain lightning has a 6 second cooldown which means you can cast it 2 times before you can recast Deep Freeze, you can bring multiple copies with no stacking issues, it has a significantly lower energy cost.

But most importaintly of all, chain lightning could when it was viable be combined with invoke lightning. And also had other strong single target damage spells and cracked armor.

So in other words, it's time for you to shut your trap and go cry on the floor while crouched up like a ball. Concider it time better spendt then embarrassing your self further here.

Azazello · Feb 21, 2012, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Look at the pic and tell me again how bad derv heroes are. Better yet, post up your own times for those runs in that old thread. Ad hominem only 'works' if you've got a target. Hell, invoke lightning does less dps than burning, and it hits less targets. You're talking to me about embarrassing yourself?

AndrewSX · Feb 21, 2012, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Personally, I think rangers may show some promise - the energy issue is far from unsolvable and you only ever need 12 MMS at maximum anyway. They also have insane elemental resists. Going to tweak them and see.

Take a look at this, has very good ideas for a ranger team.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/e...t10473192.html

The only issue is...that hasn't anything to do with Eles. I mean, running 3 Rangers as Nec, for mopping, or Rit, splinter, is very good: but with Eles + Rangers there aren't much points of sinergy.

Jeydra · Feb 21, 2012, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

In Rand, almost every pull has 6+ guys, even when you only pull one group at a time. Since deep freeze outdamages invoke at less than 6 guys, you're really clutching at straws now Jeydra, and I think you know it. Sticking to the 'you have to ball with heroes just because you said you could!' shit, even though it's completely irrelevant to whether deep freeze does more damage per cast than invoke. Telling me I have to run deep freeze on my necro, for whatever wonderful reason you have in your head. Ignoring the 9 mixed mobs balled in the first pic. Pretending that melee pulls aren't 'representative', as if only mixed pulls exist in the game. Who started with the 'unrepresentative' pics btw, with a shot of a 4pull in a VQ you could afk through?

You were wrong, just like I was about vapor blade, try to deal with it like an adult.

IF I get around to it at some point, I will post the pics you're asking for, but since most of what you're asking for is utterly irrelevant, it's not exactly a priority. Right now, I'm gonna go mow my lawn :P

Call it what you want. Without considering the snare Deep Freeze is weaker than pre-nerf Chain Lightning. It's not waaaaay weaker the way Flare is relative to Rodgort's Invocation, but it is still weaker, although it's worth pointing out one more time that Flare does more DPS than Rodgort's Invocation. Don't feel like arguing further.

I might give Water Eles a run sometime in the future, but only when I find the motivation to do so (at the moment I have no reason to go kill Destroyers, so I don't go kill them).

@AriaFrost - took a close look at that teambuild. I think it's subpar. You have nothing to hold aggro with, so you'll be taking damage on your mass casters; that is not likely to be good even with a ST + SYG. Running Shatter Hex on the E/Me bars is also likely to be a big energy sink on a bar that already suffers strong energy drain when Elemental Attunement isn't up. I don't know how the energy situation is like at 16 Energy storage, but I'm still skeptical of using two Superiors. Does the hero maintain Vital Weapon, or does he only use it when the target starts taking damage? If the former, he'll be losing energy constantly and might not be able to juggle the energy on that bar; if the latter, it might be too late and the target get spiked dead.

I have tried using three Fire Eles in VQs and it's brutal against balled mobs, but the Dom Mesmers serve a crucial function in harder areas and there's a very noticeable difference between having two Dom Mesmers and one. At the moment, I think committing three character slots to an Invoke replacement is overdoing it in general; even before Invoke was nerfed I sometimes had to use only one Invoke Ele. One of the EA Fire and another of the E/Me SF Ele seems the ideal; I'll have to find somewhere else to slot a third "Fall Back!", though.

Azazello · Feb 21, 2012, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Agreed. The recharge alone makes it worse. It was the flat refusal to acknowledge any of its advantages, or those of any other skills, that has been bothering me throughout the thread. It's going to do less damage over time, simply because of the recharge, but that shouldn't automatically exclude it from being considered.

Oh, and although it's a bit pointless now, I said I would:
http://imageshack.us/f/85/gw061n.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/545/gw066m.jpg/

Xenomortis · Feb 21, 2012, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Your screenshots show a ball of melee enemies next to a hero ball.
That is by no means surprising.

Azazello · Feb 21, 2012, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I'm not seeing the problem though. Melee enemies exist. Hero ball is fine in most places. Shame I didn't take a SS of the 10 choking gas rangers on the way there. They ball up fine, they all just park their backsides as soon as they get in range of the casters.

Wenspire · Feb 21, 2012, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Typically, all the enemy casters like to ball together. There are those exceptions in certain groups where some start kiting (like seen in slaver's at times).

Jeydra · Feb 21, 2012, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Go ball the mixed mob in Duncan HM. Also those weren't the screenshots I was looking for. Ugh.

Deep Freeze has no advantages apart from the snare, which you never mentioned (and stuff like the ability to break Hex Breaker and draw hex removal, but that's really quite minor). Once mobs get so large that you can hit 5+ of them reliably with AoE spells, you're better off running Fire / Earth.

IchibanK · Feb 21, 2012, 11:51 PM // 23:51

If you check the numbers and analyse the dpsc (damage per cast time - i.e. which spell is the most effective to cast at any given moment) you will find:

1. Deep Freeze actually requires 7+ targets to be better than Invoke Lightning at AL60 rising to 8+ targets at AL100.

2. Searing Flames (for example) requires 4+ targets to be better than Invoke Lightning at AL60 and AL100

Deep Freeze provides only 18% bar uptime, Invoke 30% and Searing Flames over 60%.

If you are using an element other than fire for your AoE damage then it should be because the conditions or effects that it brings outweighs the loss in damage.

Azazello · Feb 22, 2012, 01:28 AM // 01:28

One cast of searing flames will do more single target damage and more AE damage than one cast of invoke at AL 80 or more. The recharge allows it to replace both invoke and CL by itself, so you only need one more spell to replace lightning orb, or two longer recharge ones. Perhaps make it an AE spell to make up some of the damage loss subsequent casts of SF have compared to CL (on packs of 3 or less). Obviously SF eles have no trouble carrying [email protected] Seems to fit the 3 criteria, better single target, better ae, carries fallback. Unfortunately it doesn't fit the unlisted criteria requiring that mobs die in less than 3s, since the first SF cast takes 7s to do its damage, so SF has been out since page 2. SF is the spell that originally raised that objection.

Here's a horrible old idea that actually solves the problem though: glyph of immolation. Now SF is 'damage on demand', deals around the same single target damage as invoke (if you include 1 second of burning it's 3 less @AL 60, 5-6 [email protected] 80, of course it's more if the target survives longer than 1s), and more ae than invoke (although the AE still takes 7s I don't think that's been the issue). Plus it hits more targets (if the targets are there). As bad as it is, SF+GoI does more damage than invoke+CL. Can't really carry GoLE, but running out of energy occasionally is apparently fine. With the first second of burning from GoI added in there are quite a few spells that outdamage orb for the third spell too, but I'd use fireball, just in case the enemy happens to ball now and then. Replace shock arrow with glowing gaze and GoLE with whatever you like, throw on fire attune and AoR, done.

Of course that's a terrible build and you'd be better off with something else, but it does meet and exceed the criteria, including the fourth 'must not run out of energy too quickly', fifth 'must compress its damage into sub 3s packets', and sixth 'must deal its damage from normal spell range'. Same single target damage, more ae damage, can carry fall back. Seems outright superior to invoke. However it doesn't carry cracked armour and still leaves the issue with burning immune and fire resistant enemies. I don't think the improved damage output is going to make up for those problems, so I guess even with the obviously overpowered GoI, SF fails at the seventh criteria, 'must not use burning or fire damage', since there was a build that did that already in the OP.

@Jeydra, I mentioned the secondary effect on the previous page, and I am aware you didn't ask for that screenshot, I said I'd provide it since you didn't like the last one.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2012, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Very rarely do I agree with Gabs88, but in this I concur:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

[Azazello], it's time for you to shut your trap and go cry on the floor while crouched up like a ball. Concider it time better spendt then embarrassing your self further here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Personally, I think rangers may show some promise - the energy issue is far from unsolvable and you only ever need 12 MMS at maximum anyway. They also have insane elemental resists. Going to tweak them and see.

Although I love rangers and wish they could be worthwhile heroes, I'm really dubious.

Stripping the old Invoke+CL hero down even more than Jeydra already did, you're looking for damage that's (1) big, (2) AoE, and (3) ranged. Let's take those in reverse order: OK, you've got #3. What about #2? You're forced into Barrage, Volley, or Incendiary Arrows(+Ignite Arrows). Now, what about #1?

Barrage is going to average in the low 40's per hit against 60AL. Compared to the 100+ that seems to be the goal, that's not too good. You can sacrifice a character slot to run Orders to bring it up by another 17, or a PvE skill slot for EBSoH to bring it up by 15, or both, but you're still only reaching the low 70's per hit. Sure, you can spam Barrage as fast as your bow recycles (although hero AI doesn't like to spam Barrage and there's no good IAS options for a hero ranger), but that's DPS rather than spiky punch. If DPS alone were the goal, everyone should be going gaga over my totally unoriginal SF builds. And they aren't.

Volley is strictly worse than Barrage.

Incendiary Arrows+Ignite Arrows can potentially do more damage if the monsters are clustered tightly, but it causes scatter and isn't spammable.

Of course, what you're probably thinking of is having your SoS cast Splinter on the rangers. That's some potentially big damage, but it's on a 5sec recharge. That's already somewhat worse than chain-casting Invoke+CL, and, more importantly, you're going to need to spec a second caster high into Channeling to get a second copy of Splinter to support a second ranger. Where are you going to find the space for that?

Finally, there's the AoE radius issue. None of the Ranger options except Incendiary Arrows(+Ignite Arrows) has a radius bigger than adjacent. THis makes it inferior to options like Rodgorts that can hit more spread out mobs. More importantly, the AoE from SPlinter does nothing at all without adjacent foes. If Rodgort's hits just one guy, you get no AoE, but at least you still hit one guy for 100+; If Splinter just hits one guy, it does nothing.

Azazello · Feb 22, 2012, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Why is that? GoI+SF does more damage than invoke+CL, seems inoffensive enough, it's just facts. The point is that I could throw out dozens of random crap builds that deal more damage than invoke, but they're only going to get shot down because they're not invoke, just like every other suggestion that people have made. Perhaps we should clarify exactly what we're looking for instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

1. Ability to spec 9 points or more into a second attribute, e.g. Command Shouts.
2. Ability to bring heavy damage on demand to a single target.
3. Ability to output AoE damage as well.

Ogliowm88LuZ4sdMAAAAAAA

Swingline · Feb 22, 2012, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Invoke was good because with 3 IL heroes + your IL it could spike down 1-3 targets incredibly fast. Before the update this was far superior to any other ele spell. 40/40 sets made it even more brutal but now its a relic of the past. SF and EA fire are the champion Ele builds of today.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2012, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Why is that? GoI+SF does more damage than invoke+CL, seems inoffensive enough, it's just facts. The point is that I could throw out dozens of random crap builds that deal more damage than invoke, but they're only going to get shot down because they're not invoke, just like every other suggestion that people have made.

1. GoI+SF doesn't work. Without GoLE it will get into a hopeless energy hole unless you do the silly mimic thing Jeydra suggests. Unless you've got some brilliant plan to work more e-management in there somehow.

2. GoI only half solves the problem Jeydra has with SF. It makes it more reliable that you're going to get damage rather than burning out of SF, but (1) you might consume GoI too fast if you have non-SF offensive skills and change targets, and (2) you don't get the effect on collateral targets, so there's no guarantee you'll get damage rather than burning, so you lose the valuable AI confusion that the monster healers suffer when confronted with big AoE.

3. SF without GoI is a perfectly fine build (IMO), but it's not exactly a replacement for Invoke+CL in that it's more DPS oriented and not nearly as spiky.