Curse

Aria Frost · Feb 20, 2012, 11:30 AM // 11:30

@Jeydra

I tried the extreme SF/EA mimicry setup equipping my 2 SFs heroes with dual superior runes and compensating the health cut bringing a ST hero with Vital Weapon (the AI is smart enough to cast Vital Weapon firstly on heroes with lower health). With this setup I've quickly completed the following WoC HM quests: Cleansing Rhea's Crater, Cleansing the Silent Surf, Cleansing Morostav Trail and Intercepting the Am Fah. Now, Tracking the Corruption quest has stopped me, but I should try swapping staves and wands with spears and shields to avoid Chaos Storm on my party. Also I should note that the first heroes to fall weren't the SFs but the two having an hard res on their bar.

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

While you individually may know that Jeydra, everything invoke did has been raised as an objection to someones suggestion in this thread.

Some of your shatterstone complaints seem fairly groundless, such as lower damage. If the target lives 3s, it's more damage, and it's not even close on large packs. Vapor blade will do more damage than orb to targets with less than 120AL if you're carrying cracked armour, etc etc. I've already addressed them and really can't be bothered going over it for the second or third time.

So while the three main ones might be most important, you've also spent the entire thread sticking on the 'must unload its damage in less than three seconds (no surge/shatterstone/etc)'. I'd suggest adding it to your original post.

You're also sticking on a few others there (for example, this thread wouldn't exist if you were willing to run a build that runs out of energy occasionally, you ruled mesmers out in your OP, and so on). Maybe you should go through the list I posted and have a bit of a think about it. I'm gonna throw in 'just run sos' so you can add in your objections to that too. Unless you wanna just run sos of course.

Once we have the full list of things that old invoke did that you're unwilling to let go of, we have a better basis for coming up with something.

You're looking at it the wrong way. On its own, Shatterstone might do more damage than Invoke Lightning, but in the entire template, it does not. The reason is the same as why Flare outdamages Immolate. You can cast three Flares for every Immolate and so deal more damage. Why aren't people using Flare then?

In the same way, during that three seconds before which Shatterstone does more damage than old Invoke, you can cast Chain Lightning / Lightning Orb, and you deal more damage. You might point out that you can cast a Water spell during that three seconds as well, and you would be right, but name some worthy Water skill to compare with Chain Lightning / Lightning Orb (for example). Vapor Blade loses outright, Ice Spikes / Deep Freeze / Rust deal way less damage. Let's not forget as well that if a called target lives longer than 3s, something is wrong.

I find it very hard to believe that Vapor Blade does more damage than Lightning Orb to targets that have less than 120 AL after Cracked Armour. Please prove it with numbers. You also assume Cracked Armour already on the target. That typically means you have someone else casting Weaken Armour when he could equally be using (say) Unnatural Signet for 79 damage. Is it worth it? You tell me.

Thing to note about Shatterstone Eles is that the build, like the Earth Eles, didn't get off the drawing board. I never kitted out one Water Ele. Maybe I can give it a passing mention, but I'm hard pressed to find the motivation to edit the OP.

I'm willing to use a build that runs out of energy occasionally. Show me the build. I'm not willing to use Mesmers. My Mesmers are already occupied. I can't run SoS. I already have one.

I've given you the full list of things old Invoke does that I'm not willing to give up on. Read the OP.

Quote:

Invoke and/or chain lightning - runs out of energy.
Searing flames, lightning surge, shatterstone - don't do their damage fast enough.
Fire magic in general - areas where it sucks, we're looking for solutions for those areas.
DotAoE - doesn't do its damage fast enough, requires balling.
Minions - some areas lack corpses.
Rangers - energy restrictions won't allow them to bring fall back.
Mesmers - taken.
Mercs - no.
Melee, pbaoe - not enough range.

Lightning Surge - doesn't do damage fast enough and it isn't AoE.
Shatterstone - doesn't do enough damage and it isn't AoE and is stuck in an attribute line that can't provide it the support it needs when it's on cooldown.
Minions - already using them, difficult to use two MMs at full potential in many areas.
Channeling Rit - can only use one without skimping on SoS or SoGM, both of which are extremely powerful templates I'm loathe to give up. Damage also appears to be worse. There isn't much AoE damage available. Spirit Rift isn't damage on demand, Clamour of Souls has long cooldown + doesn't do much damage. DWG appears to be the best option, but apparently heroes don't use it very well. Single-target damage appears to be OK, up to a point. It doesn't have the oomph Invoke did with 95 damage / 1s cast, but it's decent still.
Third Mesmer - something I will try out. It has potential.

If you got ideas or (preferably) testimony with individual builds, I'm listening.

PS: I just ran a test. Vapor Blade vs. AL 80 dummy @ 16 Water did 101 damage. Lightning Orb vs. AL 100 dummy @ 16 Air did 106 damage. So no, Vapor Blade does not deal more damage even after Cracked Armour (against certain monsters at least).

@MithranArkanere - tried that. Air variant runs out of energy. It shouldn't, but thanks to the spiky nature that Invoke Eles are supposed to be, Lightning Hammer often fails to finish casting and that kills energy awfully fast. Fire variant is very worth using and fast becoming a staple with my builds. Can't see the point of the Earth and Water variants, which leaves the problem as it stands.

@above - oh, Vital Weapon. The dual Superiors threw me off at first. I'll take a closer look at the teambuild later.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Less than is not equal to. Vapor blade does exactly what I said it does. Fretting about the lack of other viable skills in water is nonsensical when you're only running 3 spells from air plus shock arrow, water can provide that. Complaining about the lack of damage on your third spell when you're making a gain on the other two and getting a secondary effect from the 'low damage' third is also silly. Deep freeze is not low damage anyway. Hitting every target in the area for 50 damage is more damage than hitting 3 targets nearby for 100. The real issue is that shatterstone takes 3s, and that's fine, but you should have said so in the first place. BTW, if you're willing to run a build that runs out of energy, run invoke.

Channeling rit damage is higher than invoke damage, but the aoe is clunkier. 138 @ 20% penetration (channeled strike) > 105 @ 25% (lightning orb). Arage is less reliable aoe than invoke/chain lightning, but the damage is higher, and DwG outdamages both put together, but like I said, it's clunkier. Once again, you can't have everything invoke did plus more, or you would have been running that build over invoke in the first place. You can have all the things it did and more, or all the things it did and higher damage, but you're going to have to accept that there are drawbacks to those advantages.

Update your OP to indicate exactly what you're looking for, or post it here. Don't ask for 3 things and when you get given a build that does those 3 things and more, complain that it doesn't fit some other criteria that you never named.

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 12:38 PM // 12:38

You said:

Quote:

Vapor blade will do more damage than orb to targets with less than 120AL if you're carrying cracked armour, etc etc.

I checked it and found:

Quote:

PS: I just ran a test. Vapor Blade vs. AL 80 dummy @ 16 Water did 101 damage. Lightning Orb vs. AL 100 dummy @ 16 Air did 106 damage. So no, Vapor Blade does not deal more damage even after Cracked Armour (against certain monsters at least).

Vapor Blade does not do what you said it does.

Deep Freeze is low damage. Hitting every target in the area for 50 damage is less than hitting three targets for 100.

I'm willing to use a build that runs out of energy occasionally. You used that word yourself, you must know. Unfortunately post-nerf Invoke does not run out of energy occasionally. It runs out of energy all the time, and it takes longer than normal to replenish that energy, thanks to exhaustion.

I'm not going to discuss Channeling Rits in more detail until I try them.

I have given you the three things I'm looking for. You say you've given me a build. What is it? Give me the spec and all eight skills.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I guess you typically pull 5 or less mobs? I typically pull about 10-15, so I understand why you consider deep freeze to be less damage than CL, do you understand why I consider it more? 500>300. You're right about vapor blade, it only breaks about even at around 100-110 AL, and falls behind slightly the further you get from that. Again, no idea how much armor HM mobs have now.

I did not realise invoke ran out so quickly, so that opens up some space. The build can run out of energy, so long as it doesn't run out too quickly, criteria #4 I guess?

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 02:25 PM // 14:25

You get perfect balls off every mob? My hats off to you then, you are the best player I've seen in the game.

Since you are so good please advise about this:

Quote:

I have given you the three things I'm looking for. You say you've given me a build. What is it? Give me the spec and all eight skills.

I'm still looking for the same three things. Running out of energy or not is not a criterion, or if you're really pedantic, I'll add the word "sustainable" to two of the three criteria.

PS: one would think that the more armour a target has, the greater the advantage Lightning Orb has over Vapor Blade.

Doug4130 · Feb 20, 2012, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Would bringing a blood necro be enough to offset invoke's energy drain?

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 02:32 PM // 14:32

That's why it's possible to cope with "running out of energy", but not to cope with "running out of energy due to exhaustion" @_@

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 02:33 PM // 14:33

The gap increases as armour decreases too, due to the 60 minimum on cracked armor. The advantage of deep freeze is that you don't need a perfect ball, not even close. Heroes can ball them enough for 'in the area' spells.

Anyways, you wanted a bar, add a third mesmer, give him skills, problem solved.

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Here's what my screen looks like right now. Please advise on how to ball 10-15 monsters.

PS: Of course the gap in damage decreases as armour goes down. I don't understand why you're implying it the opposite way, by using monsters with high AL of 100-110.
PPS: Dom Mesmers can't easily run Fall Back @ 9 Command. 7 Command is possible but the sacrifice in Inspiration and Fast Casting is obvious. If you have a working bar, please post the spec + 8 skills.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Really? Mine looks like this, please advise?

It would also be good if you could let me know how you got that implication from what I said.

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I went to DoA like you and all I got is this:

Please advise. Maybe I should get my MM to raise 11 minions and then kill him? Then 11 + 6 = 17 monsters for me to ball with heroes! Maybe the fact that my MM is a hero is how you ball 10-15 monsters with heroes! All I need to do is get him to kill himself!

And it's really obvious. The numbers I got were for hitting an AL 100 target with Vapor Blade after Cracked Armour and Lightning Orb. You then went on to cite AL 100-110. What gives?

PS: Stop being silly, and I might take you seriously. 10-15 monsters. Yeah. Right. At that rate it's better to use Fire Magic against Destroyers than pre-nerf Invoke. If you persist in quoting this number, thank you very much for your sage advice, but you're too much above my level so I prefer to listen to worse players. Happy farming DoA NM!

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Go 2 rooms further and repost what you see. Sorry I didn't want to take 10 minutes getting there so I could take a HM picture for you, another time perhaps. Anyways, right now I'm doing some slavers (in HM wewt im so awesome!!!) so I'll post you a pic once I get in if you like?

Your pic reminds me, you might be missing one essential detail about water magic. You want something to use against fire resistant enemies, which would include destroyers right?

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Show me a ball of 10-15 monsters 2 rooms further achieved using heroes to ball (i.e. no player SF balling) and I'll eat my words. If you can't, shut up.

FYI, I can also tell you off the top of my head that the first mob you face in Duncan HM has 8 monsters.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Ok, I'll post you a pic in a sec. Not going to Duncan first though, hope that's ok by you boss. Btw, 8x50 > 3x100.

Jeydra · Feb 20, 2012, 03:32 PM // 15:32

I'd love to see you post a ball of the first eight monsters in Duncan HM achieved using heroes, too. Actually, that would be the best. Go ball them, and then cast Deep Freeze yourself. If you can get 8x damage numbers vs. Dwarves (sacrificing yourself so the MM can raise 10 minions doesn't count), then you prove your point. I think it's doable, but you are going to have to tank yourself and you said something about "Heroes can ball them enough for 'in the area' spells", idk.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Yeah, no. I'm not going all the way to Duncan tonight, it's 3am here. I'm not using deep freeze on my bar, and you're missing that deep freeze does extra damage against the fire resistant enemies you're looking to damage. You're also ignoring that 7 enemies in a space the size of a ward is enough to outdamage invoke with deepfreeze even if deepfreeze only did half of invokes damage to each target, which it doesn't. Against destroyers, it does just as much damage per target as invoke, and hits more targets. Anyways, I'll post you a pic in a minute, had to go back to town, forgot to load FS :P

And now my stupid laptop froze and I wiped in Thommis

Post it up tomorrow sorry, 3:30 am here. Oh hang on, I forgot you get to res here, I'll pull now. Eh I missed :P Only got one group.

Melonni pull.
http://imageshack.us/f/404/gw012co.jpg/
9 mobs in the area, but one's dead and two are minions.
http://imageshack.us/f/4/gw015en.jpg/

I would have preferred to post the room before, as the corner pull is less likely to be complained about than the choke pull, but between the 2 groups there were 3 healers and 2 warders, so it got messy, heroes and mobs running all over the place :P Of course, the 'corner' pull is actually a small enough area that deep freeze will cross the whole room, so it's no different I guess.

I'll post some up from the start of Selvetarm tomorrow if these are unsatisfactory evidence that deep freeze can do more damage per cast than invoke. Of course Selvetarm kinda works in my favour too, as does HM veil, will those be fine? Otherwise you can suggest something else or wait till I get around to Duncan. I can even run Thommis again and get better shots, I haven't done slavers in like a year, and screwed up all 3 of the big pulls before this one, partly due to trying to get good shots. I won't be pulling 2 groups in forgewright btw, in case that's what you're thinking :P

EFGJack · Feb 20, 2012, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I bet that Jeydra can kill the mob in the time it takes to ball them with a hero, heh.

Jeydra isn't looking for a build that does big numbers on paper, he's looking for a build that gets the job done as fast as possible, and no matter how amazing a build is, it can still be slowER than what he's running atm if the amount of time required to execute a ball' 'n' nuke with a hero baller is greater than the time it takes to kill them the old-fashioned way.

AndrewSX · Feb 20, 2012, 05:38 PM // 17:38

@Azazello:You seriously have 2 Dervs in team as Nec, and you're playing a gimped SoS instead giving it to a primary hero rit and go AP-mop abusing? Just saying.

BTW: balling more than 6-7 mobs in HM is beyond a rare occasion, and when that happens, DF won't blow up them. Maybe dealing 50 dmg to all of them, maybe keeping them in place for 10 secs, but not killing.

Also, your reasoning is wrong at the base: is better to kill 3 mobs out of 10 (with invoke hitting only those 3) and others full hp rather than hitting all with weak stuff like DF but having all of them alive.

About OP: atm, i think there isn't a build able to achieve what old Invoke were able to. Maybe with upcoming changes to non-elite ele skills, but who knows.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 05:39 PM // 17:39

All I did was flag forward, flag back when I saw the red dots start moving. I forgot about the secret code that deep freeze doesn't work unless you use a hero to pull though. Still, I was held to my hyperbole, as I should be

@Andrew, you seemed to like it last time. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...472179p18.html

AFAIK, the only things that have changed since I posted that is using IV instead of preservation since IV actually does something in HM now, and grenth instead of dwayna. Oh, and I've cleared a lot more areas with it.

BTW, I've watched mobs running for the backline turn around and ball up with the rest on the dervs since I started playing again in the last few days. Don't know if something changed there, but they're doing better than ever. The only thing that really distracts mobs now is my spirits.