Curse

Chthon · Feb 18, 2012, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Throwing this in the mix:

Heroes now use AP with some degree of effectiveness. I'd say they have about 85% reliability with AP at rank 9.

Obvious builds are Churning Earth + Eruption + Wards and Searing Heat + Tenai's Heat.

AP+GoLE+Attunement keeps them better than OK on energy.

Hero AP bars do need something they can spam when AP misses or they turn to deadweight.

So... any ideas for AP builds that are comparable with the other top contenders?

LexTalionis · Feb 18, 2012, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Throwing this in the mix:

Heroes now use AP with some degree of effectiveness. I'd say they have about 85% reliability with AP at rank 9.

Obvious builds are Churning Earth + Eruption + Wards and Searing Heat + Tenai's Heat.

AP+GoLE+Attunement keeps them better than OK on energy.

Hero AP bars do need something they can spam when AP misses or they turn to deadweight.

So... any ideas for AP builds that are comparable with the other top contenders?

The problem with Hero AP is - if I'm not wrong, like other hexes, AP doesn't stack on the same target, so you'd only use one AP hero at best.

Sorry, this doesn't answer your question. I'd say go with fire.

Xenomortis · Feb 19, 2012, 12:32 AM // 00:32

AP stacks; there's no issue with using multiple copies of AP on the same target.

Chthon · Feb 19, 2012, 01:49 AM // 01:49

AP stacks just fine. The bigger questions are:
(1) Is the performance gap between what you get spamming high-potency, high-recharge spells and what you get from the current top contenders big enough to justify the terrible performance when AP misses?
(2) How much hedging can you do to make these builds not turn to complete deadweight for 45sec when AP inevitably misses?

Gabs88 · Feb 19, 2012, 02:08 AM // 02:08

What about Churning Earth, Eruption, Stoning Spammer? Lots of KD, blinds, AOE, decent energy management and can bring Wards. Relatively good performance during AP downtime as well

Actually thinking about it:
Earth Attunement
Obsidian Flame
Ebon Hawk
Glowstone
Eruption
Churning Earth
Assassins Promise
+Ward

Might be an okeyish bar. Seeing how heroes stop casting exhaustion spells when it reaches a certain level bringing obs flame shouldn't be a problem.

Chthon · Feb 19, 2012, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

What about Churning Earth, Eruption, Stoning Spammer? Lots of KD, blinds, AOE, decent energy management and can bring Wards. Relatively good performance during AP downtime as well

Actually thinking about it:
Earth Attunement
Obsidian Flame
Ebon Hawk
Glowstone
Eruption
Churning Earth
Assassins Promise
+Ward

Might be an okeyish bar. Seeing how heroes stop casting exhaustion spells when it reaches a certain level bringing obs flame shouldn't be a problem.

1. Don't like Ebon Hawk when someone else can just bring EB.
2. If energy holds up and someone else brings EB, prefer Stoning over Ebon Hawk and even ObbyFlame.
3. Stoning + ObbyFlame is nice single-target damage.
4. GoLE over Glowstone. The hero AI does shockingly well with AP+GoLE.
5. Now, does it have enough damage output in practice to rival things like dual SF or EA-Fire, or the crazy SF-mimic-EA-Fire thing?

Gabs88 · Feb 19, 2012, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Well, it benefits from EBSOH which is interesting by it self. For a primary ele I think it might. But for a nec / mes / monk I highly doubt it. Especially since you also have to put it up against mesmers still. And then there's the AP think making it somewhat unreliable over time I guess

Azazello · Feb 19, 2012, 04:39 AM // 04:39

I'm not understanding the problem with water magic. Shock arrow/glowing ice, lighting orb/vapor blade, invoke lightning/shatterstone, chain lightning/*, aor/aor, attune/attune, gole/*, fall back/fall back.

You miss cracked armor so you need to get that from somewhere else, plus deepfreeze/rust/ice spikes etc aren't great replacements for chain lightning (I'd even use blurred vision and increase the offense elsewhere), but otherwise it seems to fit the three criteria. Missing the 25% armor pen on glowing ice isn't too bad, vapor blade it's a little bit of a problem, but shatterstone does over twice as much single target damage as invoke before armor pen, so a small gain there.

It's not what I'd use, but it seems to do what you want.

BTW, it's entirely possible that invoke was nerfed for pve as well as pvp because it was felt to be too strong in both, so your endless energy nonscattering aoe spammers with great single target damage are going to be a bit weaker than before.

Gabs88 · Feb 19, 2012, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

I'm not understanding the problem with water magic. Shock arrow/glowing ice, lighting orb/vapor blade, invoke lightning/shatterstone, chain lightning/*, aor/aor, attune/attune, gole/*, fall back/fall back.

Glowing Ice has no armor penetration and needs a hexed target with water magic, Shock Arrow just an attacking target (which heroes are real good at)
Vapor Blade = Half Damage if target is enchanted and ofc no cracked armor or armor penetration
Shatterstone deals no AOE damage if target dies while under the effects of shatterstone (which is the point when playing AP)

Azazello · Feb 19, 2012, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88

Glowing Ice has no armor penetration and needs a hexed target with water magic, Shock Arrow just an attacking target (which heroes are real good at)
Vapor Blade = Half Damage if target is enchanted and ofc no cracked armor or armor penetration
Shatterstone deals no AOE damage if target dies while under the effects of shatterstone (which is the point when playing AP)

Glowing ice is also a very easy criteria to fill with two *s and shatterstone. You will lose some aoe damage if the target dies under shatterstone, it's true, but you'll make some of that up through the higher single target damage on targets that do survive for three seconds along with hitting everything nearby rather than only 2 extra targets. Vapor blade = 30% higher base damage makes up some of the armor pen problem, mentioned that you would have to get cracked armour from elsewhere. If you do have cracked armour somewhere else, it should typically do more damage than orb. I have no idea how much armour mobs have since the HM change though.

It fits the criteria, although it may be weaker (can't tell without trying, and I'm not going to bother since I would use neither build, not that I think invoke is bad but it doesn't fit my playstyle), but then, that's the point of nerfing skills right?

Another suggestion would be to look at more pbaoe builds like DwG or blood magic.

Gabs88 · Feb 19, 2012, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Sorry but that wouldn't work either. Heroes don't cast DWG before the foe is in adjacent range and that's hardly the role invoke filled in the first place. And blood magic simply lacks utility

Azazello · Feb 19, 2012, 07:14 AM // 07:14

The bar only carries cracked armour for utility. I'm pretty sure blood can do better than that. Nor are they the only two pbaoe heavy att lines around. Star burst including burning is 175 damage to touched and all in the area while restoring energy, double dragon does 96/192 damage in the requisite 3 seconds without factoring burning, etc.

We're kinda getting to a point now where the criteria are shaping up as:
Should not exploit corpses.
Should not use fire damage.
Must not be a mesmer.
Must require no micromanagement of skills.
Must deal damage from bow range (definitely no melee).
Must carry cracked armour.
Must never run out of energy.
Must carry fall [email protected]
Must unload its damage in <3s.
Must do as much single target damage as old invoke.
Must do as much 3 target damage as old invoke.

In other words, what you're looking for is old invoke. That list is every single thing it did. You can't have a build that does exactly what old invoke did, plus more, or you would have been running that build instead. You can have some of it, and some other stuff, that's all. I hear each build has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Like water magic. Better single target, aoe hits more targets, damage vs first 2 extra targets is lower, relies on target surviving 3 seconds, no cracked armour. Or blood, more utility, less spiky, takes longer to get into position. Star burst, more damage, bigger area, more spiky, more bar compression, requires touch range, fire sucks in some areas. DwG, better single target, better aoe, aoe requires micro for full effect, less effect from 40/40, etc, etc.

I could say 'just run sos' and I already know that I'd hear 'I am', 'Too slow', or 'My rits are being used elsewhere', and I'd have a few more things to add to the criteria. All the objections boil down to: 'if it's not old invoke, I don't like it!', no matter what advantages the suggestion offers over old invoke, in this case, shitting all over its dps. The exact niche that build filled is gone, deal with it.

Jeydra · Feb 19, 2012, 11:31 PM // 23:31

The three hallmarks of the old Invoke bar that I really want to keep are in the first post. The others aren't that important.

But Water really isn't a replacement for Invoke. We're looking at:

Lightning Orb > Vapor Blade (not only must you factor in Cracked Armour, there's the armour penetration - higher base damage does NOT compensate unless the target is already 60 AL)
Glowing Ice > Shock Arrow (it's more reliable to get a hex in for sure)
Invoke Lightning >>> Shatterstone (more damage, more reliable AoE, lower recharge, heroes stack it against a target and will keep stacking it until the target dies)
Chain Lightning > Deep Freeze / Ice Spikes / Rust (more damage, more reliable AoE, less energy cost)

It really isn't much of a comparison. If you have personal experience with the build and feel it can be recommended, say so, and I'll try it out myself. Otherwise I can see no reason to kit out a Water Elementalist; there are simply better options (such as Fire).

Also I know that the exact old Invoke is gone. I said so earlier in this thread. Doesn't mean I can't look for replacements to it. Finally I doubt Invoke was nerfed because it's too strong in PvE; I'm like one of the only people to use the bar.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 12:18 AM // 00:18

While you individually may know that Jeydra, everything invoke did has been raised as an objection to someones suggestion in this thread.

Some of your shatterstone complaints seem fairly groundless, such as lower damage. If the target lives 3s, it's more damage, and it's not even close on large packs. Vapor blade will do more damage than orb to targets with less than 120AL if you're carrying cracked armour, etc etc. I've already addressed them and really can't be bothered going over it for the second or third time.

So while the three main ones might be most important, you've also spent the entire thread sticking on the 'must unload its damage in less than three seconds (no surge/shatterstone/etc)'. I'd suggest adding it to your original post.

You're also sticking on a few others there (for example, this thread wouldn't exist if you were willing to run a build that runs out of energy occasionally, you ruled mesmers out in your OP, and so on). Maybe you should go through the list I posted and have a bit of a think about it. I'm gonna throw in 'just run sos' so you can add in your objections to that too. Unless you wanna just run sos of course.

Once we have the full list of things that old invoke did that you're unwilling to let go of, we have a better basis for coming up with something.

Swingline · Feb 20, 2012, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Only good thing about Water is Ward Against Harm. This comes from someone who tested water extensively.

The best build for Water I had was centered around making WAH last the longest with Ice Spear as the only damage because it can be spammed. Of course damage wasn't my main concern and I made the build in the hopes Ice Spear would get a buff in the future. It did pretty well though. 60-80 damage a pop @ 20 Water Magic against WoC HM foes while protecting the party from 40 or so mobs shitting on me and my heroes. I ended up completing the mission as well.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Some of your shatterstone complaints seem fairly groundless, such as lower damage. If the target lives 3s, it's more damage, and it's not even close on large packs. Vapor blade will do more damage than orb to targets with less than 120AL if you're carrying cracked armour, etc etc. I've already addressed them and really can't be bothered going over it for the second or third time.

Vapor Blade blows half the time because of its second mechanic. Shatterstone is an ok skill now but the rest of the Water Magic line holds it back. If your not up against fire resistant mobs then just go fire.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 12:31 AM // 00:31

I'll throw in another suggestion: combine two of your own. IV/putrid bile does pretty satisfactory aoe, I used to follow it up with a putrid explosion to clear shrines in AB, so if you're not running a MM that's also an option. I did that on a N/A assacaster btw, so running command still shouldn't be a problem, although the single target damage probably wouldn't be comparable. Don't know if they fixed heroes usage of signet of sorrow, if not, I wouldn't recommend it.

Also if you're having trouble with vapor blades half damage vs enchanted, rethink your whole team. Blood might be exactly what you're looking for.

Swingline · Feb 20, 2012, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Also if you're having trouble with vapor blades half damage vs enchanted, rethink your whole team. Blood might be exactly what you're looking for.

I can do better by just running a fire build or EA Air.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Although not against enchantments, high armour, destroyers, etc etc etc. I wouldn't run ANY of the builds in this thread, including old invoke. I prefer to do more damage outright than be able to switch and spike targets.

I'm trying to help you out finding a build that does most of the things it did plus a few new tricks. Seems more like I've stumbled into a huge 'QQ old invoke r gone!' thread than a genuine attempt to replace that slot. If you only look at what a build doesn't do, you're unable to see what it does do.

MithranArkanere · Feb 20, 2012, 01:18 AM // 01:18

There's a type of builds heroes can easily use and abuse anywhere with no or few enemies that have enchantment removal.
I used this a lot before Nightfall, but after the last elementalist update, the +2 elemental attribute made me try it again, and I was gladly surprised when I saw the result. A type of build that I know call "Infinite-20 + variant name".

Elemental Attunement, attunement of the element chosen, Aura of restoration, glyph of elemental power, and then the 4 most expensive and fast recharging skills you can find.

For air, that would be Binding Flash, Lighning Orb, Lighning Hammer and Chain Lightning.
Along a +3 air rune in headgear, this gives the user 20 air magic.

When I use that, I do 90...170 damage every 2...3 seconds to level 30..33 enemies in HM, while healing myself for 48...100+ with each spell, and producing more energy than the energy spent, which keeps my energy maxed just in case the occasional enchantment stripping removes one of the three enchantments.
Heroes won't stop spamming the spells, and will blind all over the place like crazy, and perfectly maintain the enchantments.
So I call this variant "Spiker".

This can be replaced with any element.
For fire, use Incendiary Bonds, Fireball, invication of rodgord and then lava arrows, phoenix, liquid flame or meteor shower. Or instead fireball, mark of rodgord + lava arrows.
This variant I call "Nearby Nightmare". Not as good as the air one with single enemies, but along some Weaken armor in a necromancer, it's makes hordes of enemies disappear in seconds. And there's no place to run like when you use DPS AoEs.

For water, water spikes, vapor blade and rust. Then maelstrom or deep freeze.
This I call just "Water". Not as good generally, but against fire-based enemies like fire elementals and fire titans, it does wonders, specially if you strip the enchantments elementalist fire elementals usually have.

For earth, stoning, churning earth, and ebonhawk. And then earthquake or eruption. Or just the 3 of the 4 wards plus ebonhawk.
These I call just "earth" and "warder".

When I use this in heroes along a mesmer with stolen speed, the enemies go down so fast that I don't get to do anything, which can be rather boring.
Luckily, this doesn't work so when when enemies have lots of enchantment removal like in WoC and WiK and many higher-end areas.
Otherwise they would have to nerf the thing to oblivion.

By the way, Cynn has a fire build similar to this one in Prophecies and factions, without the elemental glyph. So she has only 18 fire magic.

Azazello · Feb 20, 2012, 01:58 AM // 01:58

So far we have:
Must run [email protected]
Good single target damage.
Decent aoe damage.

Invoke and/or chain lightning - runs out of energy.
Searing flames, lightning surge, shatterstone - don't do their damage fast enough.
Fire magic in general - areas where it sucks, we're looking for solutions for those areas.
DotAoE - doesn't do its damage fast enough, requires balling.
Minions - some areas lack corpses.
Rangers - energy restrictions won't allow them to bring fall back.
Mesmers - taken.
Mercs - no.
Melee, pbaoe - not enough range.

Channeling rit is looking good. The aoe is clunkier, but the damage is better, and it doesn't run into any of the objections people have thrown up so far.