Curse

Jeydra · Dec 31, 2011, 09:29 AM // 09:29

The base build is this one:

16 Smiting Prayers
10 Divine Favour
9 Command

Unyielding Aura [E]
Reversal of Damage
Smite Condition
Smite Hex
Smiter's Boon
"Fall Back!"
Castigation Signet
Divine Healing

I want to keep:

1. Unyielding Aura - this skill is more powerful than all the other hard resses in the game put together. The only other res that comes close is Sunspear Rebirth Signet and to a lesser extent Res Sig ...
2. "Fall Back!"
3. Some bar push. Neither Smite Condition nor Smite Hex are necessary, but the hero must still be able to output some pure healing.

For the rest, I just want as much damage as possible.

What's the best way to go about this? With only Mo/P or P/Mo as options and Smiting Prayers absurdly terrible for damage, would a P/Mo spearchucker with UA + Motivation skills deal more damage than a UA Smiter? Physical support is largely unavailable except Splinter Weapon. Does this work?

15 Motivation
9 Spear Mastery
9 Command
10 Leadership

Unyielding Aura [E]
Ballad of Restoration
Aria of Restoration
"Go For The Eyes!"
"Fall Back!"
Blazing Spear
Holy Spear
Signet of Synergy

I can spare up to two Superior runes on a Paragon main if necessary.

Spiritz · Dec 31, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Look under smiting as you seem to have missed strength & honor which you would apply to any melee heros you have - it increases their damage output.
Someone else may be able to suggest over skills you may have missed - i rarely use monks in any of my teams.

Xenomortis · Dec 31, 2011, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

Look under smiting as you seem to have missed strength & honor which you would apply to any melee heros you have - it increases their damage output.

Strength of Honor isn't good enough to boost the effectiveness of melee heroes beyond 'merely viable'

The Smiter is more capable than the Paragon, I think. Divine Healing is far better than Aria and Ballad of Restoration combined and the extra cleaning is sort of nice. Depending on how much bar push you actually need, the Para may or may not cut it.
As for damage; well Para damage is pretty pitiful but I guess it'll be better than the Monk's, particularly when Splinter Weapon gets used.

Toraen · Dec 31, 2011, 01:06 PM // 13:06

If you aren't running melee (which I strongly suspect), I'd say smiting is pretty much a waste of time. Since not even RoJ is being used, why bother with smiting at all? An UA smite supporting nothing but casters is just a worse UA heal monk.

I'd be able to make better recommendations if I knew what kind of team this is trying to fit into, but if you're dead-set on having UA, Fall Back, healing and damage on the same character, it looks like you get to dust off General Morgahn. It seems like a really unfocused bar though, and I feel it would be better to distribute one or two of the roles to other characters if possible.

KotCR · Dec 31, 2011, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Yeah, on first impressions I can see even on those two bars, you could get alot of extra milage if you'd just drop Fallback and give it to someone else. Take the points off Command on the Monk, and give him Spear Mastery and a Spear Attack or two instead.

Same deal on the Paragon. To fit into your guidelines as close as possible, you'd be better off dropping Command and grabbing Healing Prayers instead for Gift of Health as a modest heal, or possibly Signet of Rejuvenation if it turns out energy was a problem (which, with that bar, it could well be unless you microed UA to only activate it when you needed it, 1 energy regen doesn't go too far and the Chants will still cost you 5 energy a piece even with Leadership). Ballad of Restoration really isn't that great either, the healing is triggering by the enemy and not by you making it unreliable and causing your team members to at times not benefit from it, and the AI is pretty dumb with it and will use Ballad of Restoration when it should use Song of Restoration, and Song of Restoration when it should use Ballad of Restoration. Without Finale of Restoration and Mending Refrain, and the means to take full advantage of them (see Paraway teams), you'll be hard pressed to get any solid healing from Motivation, so you might want to look at an alternate approach.

Which is, on the Paragon, going the other route and dropping Motivation all together for a stronger Command stat and use "Never Surrender!" for some strong party healing over-time (it's far better than any of the Chants, and will heal upto 3x - 4x as much overall over the Chant's 20 second recharge), with a few points dropped into Healing for Gift of Health or Signet of Rejuvenation again for a single target heal. Never Surrender is easier on the energy too, costing you zilch with 10 Leadership.

But the truth is, without a phys-way styled team you'll probably have a relatively difficult time getting any Paragon or Paragon-esque character to deal high damage with their Spear due to the weak attack bonuses on Spear skills, lack of AoE, and the high AL of monsters in HM. Once again, your best damage options as a Paragon once again come from Command with "Find Their Weakness" for large armour ignoring damage and a deep wound, and Anthem of Envy for some extra armour ignoring damage for attack skill wielding allies in the team instead (including Spirits), which tends to be why it's the attribute line people stick to for their Paragon heroes, other than the obvious application of access to Fallback!. Spear of Lightning might be okay because of the armour penetration, and Blazing Spear because the degen from burning is basically armour-ignoring too, but that's it for the spear line really.

I'm going to echo the others are say I don't realy see a point in going Smiting if you aren't going to use a Smiting Elite or Strength of Honour though. You'd probably be better off just speccing in Divine Favour, Spear Mastery and Command exclusively, seems as you want to maintain access to Unyielding Aura and Fallback!. Then using Unyielding Aura + Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight plus the possiblity of some other random Divine Favour healing skill (like Signet of Devotion or Divine Intervention), alongside Never Surrender! from Command, for Healing, with Find Their Weakness!, Anthem of Envy, Burning Spear or Spear of Lightning (once again, depends how you plan to manage your energy) on the bar for damage.

Chthon · Dec 31, 2011, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraen

Since not even RoJ is being used, why bother with smiting at all?

This at least I can answer. Starting from the premise that you really, really want UA, the goal is to make something useful out of the other 7 slots on the UA bar.

The first instinct is to use a redbarup healer. Unfortunately, (1) UA bars do not make very good redbarup healers (their popularity among certain idiotic PvE constituencies notwithstanding), (2) the energy problems inherent in the build are exacerbated by the hero AI, and (3) you don't want to be spending an entire party slot on rez+redbarup.

So the next place to look is smiting. Maybe you can get rez+redbarup+dmg. Well, it turns out that (1) the damage is not all that great numerically, (2) the damage is almost entirely undirected, and (3) the redbarup isn't that fantastic either.

So, on to Plan C, maybe paragon stuff. Yeah, I've got to say I'm not very fond of the proposed build. I also doubt there's anything there to find, mostly for the reasons stated by KotCR.

So, how do you make a worthwhile build that includes UA? Damned if I know. I'm half inclined to say that one doesn't exist. It may well be that the real cost of UA is a completely gimped character slot.

[edit: offhand thought: Judge's Intervention is kinda funny in the context of a minion bomber, but the hero AI doesn't spam it enough.]

Xenomortis · Dec 31, 2011, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Not entirely accurate. The main issue is that a dedicated healer is just not necessary; the UA hero is quite comparable to any other dedicated healing hero. You want some red bar, but not much.
Since I know Jeydra is comfortable with a low amount of defense past the spirits and minions, the rest of it might as well be damage. A smiting bar is the natural pick, but it's also a really bad hybrid option, as you said (which is weird, given Smiting Prayers is dedicated to that sort of role).

My immediate thought was to use a Rit hero; a Rt/Mo could slot in UA as the elite and simply go as a Channeling/Resto hybrid; it's not great with the burned elite slot but it's probably better than the Smiting alternative. The main problem is the limitation to two Ritualists and lets face it, the SoGM and SoS bars take precedence.

Daesu · Dec 31, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraen

If you aren't running melee (which I strongly suspect), I'd say smiting is pretty much a waste of time. Since not even RoJ is being used, why bother with smiting at all?

There is some truth in this. I don't use a smiter with my casters unless I am going into an area with lots of undead and if I am, I'll be bringing RoJ.

The damage aspect from a typical smiter build just works better with melee, even for spells like Smite Hex/Smite Condition. There are the obvious Strength of Honor and Judge's Insight. For smite damage, I also like Balthazar's Aura even though it is expensive, but as you can see these skills favor melee more than long range casters.

Chthon · Dec 31, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Not entirely accurate. The main issue is that a dedicated healer is just not necessary; the UA hero is quite comparable to any other dedicated healing hero.

I agree that a pure healers is not necessary (at least not in the context of what Jeydra usually runs), but I also think that's UA's just not very good at that role in the first place. Either is reason enough to be dissatisfied. I guess it doesn't matter which reason you find more compelling.

Quote:

My immediate thought was to use a Rit hero; a Rt/Mo could slot in UA as the elite and simply go as a Channeling/Resto hybrid; it's not great with the burned elite slot but it's probably better than the Smiting alternative. The main problem is the limitation to two Ritualists and lets face it, the SoGM and SoS bars take precedence.

The other problem is going to be energy. My Channeling/Resto hybrids tend to rely on Siphoning off SoS. Take away those free spirits and replace them with -1 e-regen and I'm rather worried about its energy management.

Xenomortis · Dec 31, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Since there's no reason to maintain UA it should be disabled and simply used as 1/4s res when needed (a simple mouse click is easy enough as micro). Further energy costs depend on what you ask of the template and the circumstances it's put into.

Chthon · Dec 31, 2011, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Since there's no reason to maintain UA it should be disabled and simply used as 1/4s res when needed (a simple mouse click is easy enough as micro).

Good point.
(12 chars)

But we're still missing the SoS+Siphon goodness.

Xenomortis · Dec 31, 2011, 10:09 PM // 22:09

If you haven't got Mercs, yes, and that's what'd stop me pushing that template. I guess you could go Mo/Rt and forgo the runes, but that'd be clutching at straws.

Kaida the Heartless · Dec 31, 2011, 11:14 PM // 23:14

@ Jeydra:
Unfortunately, that is the "top of the line" Mo/P bar. The sustained damage is crap, but for 99% of PvE, upfront burst will net you the fastest times for VQ's. Any sustained DPS will be brought by the rest of your massively offensive party, which I know you like to run.

The largest issue is that you've locked in your secondary, which eliminates a large portion of your e-management options, in turn, nullifying Hero viability.

If you opened up your secondary and fit "Fall Back!" onto another Hero in your party, you'll gain access to either Ritualist or Mesmer e-management. Now you can run a more "Hero-proof" bar.

I'm thinking about experimenting with Zealot's Fire after the Ele update. With the reduced monster armor and Cracked Armor, I think it'll be able to put out some decent damage (as decent as the smiting line gets, anyways). I don't run a Channeling Rit in my party, so something like this is possible:
Unyielding Aura
Divine Healing
Smite Condition
Smite Hex
Zealot's Fire
Ancestors' Rage
Splinter Weapon
Spirit Siphon

There are 4 skills that are cast on allies (and minions!) to rotate in the Zealot's Fire damage. I normally run Spirit Spam on my Necro, so the Hero will constantly be pulling energy in from Spirit Siphon, which should be hitting different Spirits each time due to my Summon Spirits spam. May or may not switch Divine Healing for Smiter's Boon; I'm really not sure if it'll be worth it or not. Keep in mind though, this is untested thus far, I'm just looking ahead.

Also, with the update, I'll probably be fitting a Searing Flames Ele into my party somewhere, so a bar like this would be an option for me:
Unyielding Aura
"They're on Fire!"
Glowing Signet
"Stand Your Ground!"
"Fall Back!"
Optional Skill
Optional Skill
Optional Skill
(Anthem of Envy for spirit spammers and e-management, motivation skills for healing, spear skills for damage)

In short, you ARE running the best UA Smiter that a Hero can "intelligently" run. Freeing up your secondary might give you some more options.

I'll lose some credibility with this statement, but I would ALMOST want to put UA on the minion bomber if it would free up the slot we are debating to better (and more damaging) options. It just feels like we are wasting an entire bar just to fit UA in somewhere.

@Cthon:
Siphon still works /w the communing Rit, if Jeydra is running one in their party.

Jeydra · Jan 01, 2012, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraen

If you aren't running melee (which I strongly suspect), I'd say smiting is pretty much a waste of time. Since not even RoJ is being used, why bother with smiting at all? An UA smite supporting nothing but casters is just a worse UA heal monk.

I'd be able to make better recommendations if I knew what kind of team this is trying to fit into, but if you're dead-set on having UA, Fall Back, healing and damage on the same character, it looks like you get to dust off General Morgahn. It seems like a really unfocused bar though, and I feel it would be better to distribute one or two of the roles to other characters if possible.

This is the teambuild:

N/Mo AotL MM (AotL, Animate Bone Minions, BotM, Death Nova, Prot Spirit, Aegis, Putrid Bile, Masochism)
SoS Rit (SoS, Spirit Siphon, Painful Bond, Bloodsong, Spirit Light, MBAS, PwK, ARage)
SoGM (SoGM, Spirit Siphon, Pain, Anguish, Shadowsong, Disenchantment, Death Pact Sig, Fall Back!)
Invoke (Invoke Lightning, Shock Arrow, Lightning Orb, Chain Lightning, Air Attune, Aura of Resto, Fall Back!, GoLE)
Dom Mes x2 (ESurge, Mistrust, Shatter Enchant, Unnatural Sig, Power Drain, WNWN, Cry of Frustation, Spiritual Pain)
[Last slot]

I want the UA because UA is pretty damn strong indeed and (for me anyway) far and away the most powerful of the Monk elites. I also want Fall Back because I want three copies of it in the teambuild. With the Dom Mes bars crammed full already and already low on energy management, they cannot take a copy. An option would be to drop a Dom Mes for another Invoke with Fall Back, which works, but is slightly more fragile. Splinter Weapon support is available from the SoS Rit if needed. If UA has to go on a non-last-slot character, the person most capable of taking it is probably a Mesmer, but with energy already cramped it won't be cheap.

This isn't about VQs, because with VQs I just fill out the last slot with another Invoke Ele and let healing be damned.

What about:

14 Spear Mastery
12 Command
8 Leadership
10 Healing Prayers

"Never Surrender!"
"Fall Back!"
Heal Other
Unyielding Aura [E]
Blazing Spear
Holy Spear
"Stand Your Ground!"
Anthem of Envy

Energy might not work, might have to replace one of those shouts for "Go For The Eyes" ...

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 01, 2012, 09:04 AM // 09:04

If it's not for VQ's, what content are you planning to do with the setup?

Edit:
While I'm asking, why not change one Mesmer:
Shatter Ench --> Drain Enchantment
Spiritual Pain --> "Fall Back!"

You lose some damage, but I feel like the options gained for your last slot would more than make up for it (like a Dom Mes with UA or a Hybrid Necro with UA?)

Just a thought.

Amy Awien · Jan 01, 2012, 11:50 AM // 11:50

The SS/curses necro from sabway was always lacking an outstanding Elite to bring. It's curses bar could still be useful (don't see it in your bars) and if you want you can give it Unyielding Aura as it's elite.

loopysnoopy · Jan 01, 2012, 12:57 PM // 12:57

My UA smiter runs his bar like this:

Elite: UA

Skill2: Castigation Signet for a bit of energy management and some damage

Skill3: Divine Healing a cheap heal to cover

Skill4: Smite Condition

Skill5:Optional either Smite Hex or my favourite skill Hexbreaker Aria** costly on adrenalin but great if you can squeeze dark fury somewhere

Skill6: Optional again either "Can't Touch This", "Stand Your Ground" or to help on energy Blessed Signet or if melee Strength and Honour***

Skill7: "Never Surrender!" a cleaver spike heal if you get mobbed and your health drops below 75%

Skill8: "Fall Back!"

Template Code: Owkj4gQspOMEr/Fh6DAAA+4dMA

Runes as follows are:

Head: Divine with a superior rune on it 12+1+3
Chest: Survivor with highest vigor rune
Gloves Radiant with a minor Smiting rune
Legs: Survivor and Vitae
Boots: Either Radiant or Survivor and the rune either Vitae or Attunement

Weapon either a wand set a shield set or a high energy set up; note if using the high energy set up you won't need as much energy management.

***If using SoH on that bar change the position of the runes superior smiting for the head minor divine on the gloves lose some of the high powered UA and divine healing but you get an increase in the damage from the smiting stuff.

**Another note is if using Hexbreaker Aria a shield set up is best with a furious mod on the weapon of choice.

Lanier · Jan 01, 2012, 03:37 PM // 15:37

As a primary paragon, I can tell you that the paragon heals are absolutely terrible. They aren't worth using at all. Paragon spear damage isn't good either, unless you're planning to invest in a multiple-paragon team (which you arn't). You would get a lot more damage out of smite condition/smite hex/Reversal of damage.

Then again I wouldn't run UA either, unless you're in the DoA. 7H teams are too powerful to be dieing anywhere else. I use RoJ on my smiter in my all of my 7H builds.

Morte66 · Jan 01, 2012, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Try putting UA on your bomber in place of AotL, and replace the smiter with another hero altogether. I always used AotL by default, but I've come to like UA bombers rather a lot.

Energy will be OK if you micro Prot Spirit, which I believe you do. I was worried that they wouldn't recast UA because they're too busy spamming Death Nova, but in practice the bomber keeps it up as well as the smiter.

I do miss AotL a bit, it's not a brilliant elite but it's still an elite, but getting a whole Ele/Mesmer/whatever in place of a smiter I never liked much is a very good trade.

Jeydra · Jan 03, 2012, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

Try putting UA on your bomber in place of AotL, and replace the smiter with another hero altogether. I always used AotL by default, but I've come to like UA bombers rather a lot.

Energy will be OK if you micro Prot Spirit, which I believe you do. I was worried that they wouldn't recast UA because they're too busy spamming Death Nova, but in practice the bomber keeps it up as well as the smiter.

I do miss AotL a bit, it's not a brilliant elite but it's still an elite, but getting a whole Ele/Mesmer/whatever in place of a smiter I never liked much is a very good trade.

Tried that out, it worked fine. Only problem then is though, I still need a Rt/P or Mo/P for that last slot (for the Fall Back + heal combination), which means I'm still stuck with a Monk primary, considering that both my Rits are already occupied.

Maybe after the Ele update the second Ele hero is more appealing and he can take Fall Back with it, which leaves a hero with heals + damage and both primary + secondary profession free ...

@Amy Awien, I've tried making Curses bars lots of times and they never worked out. Curses as a whole sucks outside of physical support, and I'm not running with physicals.

@Lanier, I very rarely wipe, but I do take occasional deaths, and when I take those deaths it's very obvious what UA is doing to prevent the wipe. UA provides such a good protective blanket that one can confidently overaggro groups knowing that no wipe will happen. RoJ is the only other competing elite, and although it's certainly viable, I am not balling foes with anything other than minions, EBVAS and spirits, and it does have a 2s cast that can stress out a second healer (especially since the other healer in the team has 3 heals only, with offensive skills to boot). I will claim UA the strongest Monk elite out there for heroes, and want one in my team, especially since all the other hard resses are unappealing and I can't have only 2 Death Pacts.