Curse

Daesu · Jun 26, 2012, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radian

Thanks again guys.

Daesu, I returned to PvE and made a characer 6 days ago after taking many years off. I do not know what Frostmaw is but I will try some EoTN dungeons in HM when I get to them.

Ok, try it out and let us know how it goes. Here is the information on the Frostmaw's Burrows Dungeon at EoTN:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Frostmaw%27s_Burrow

I picked Frostmaw because it is one of the harder dungeons in EoTN and I think that would be a test of your team's defenses. But like you said, your team is unique in the sense that it has many damage mitigation in the form of offensive interrupts so it would be interesting to see how it performs there.

My Player Person · Jun 26, 2012, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

By the way: YOUR ER PROT HASN'T GOT INFUSE.

This is so true, take off remove hex (obsession with hexs) or the res (at least use rebirth over res chat...) and put infuse.

Scrap Fmaw, go test it in the Domain of anguish... Try gloom first.

Radian · Jun 26, 2012, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Thx for the adivce Player, I just read your post now. I have attempted Frostmaw and had a hard time. I felt like the build did well but the dungeon didn't seem to be for heroes. There were many enemies that killed my team with AoE. I tried flagging and spreading my team out but it is tough with 7 heroes and not 7 flags. There were also groups of 9 Chromatic Drakes on the second floor which seemed to be a bit much. It was also problematic that none of my heroes had runes or any weapons other than the starter stuff. Or I could just be a bad player which is likely as well.

Here is a screenshot of my state of being on the third floor.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Daesu · Jun 26, 2012, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Thanks Radian. I suspected as much.

Without a second healer your heroes would succumb to hexes and degen which Frostmaw has many of those. On top of that, you don't have paragon defenses like "Stand Your Ground!" or "Save Yourselves!". In short, I don't think you would have enough defenses for many of the HM elite areas.

The build I use consists of 2 healers, 1 prot, and 4 mesmers (or 3 mesmers + 1 SoGM rit in certain areas).

http://www.gwpvx.com/User:DarkSpirit...ter_characters

HigherMinion · Jun 26, 2012, 11:58 PM // 23:58

You can always just swap the ER prot for an ST rit. Solves most survival issues.

Relyk · Jun 27, 2012, 01:04 AM // 01:04

frostmaw is a terrible place to test builds

Daesu · Jun 27, 2012, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

frostmaw is a terrible place to test builds

Actually it is a great place to test a build such as his to reveal its weaknesses. Otherwise in most pve areas his build should survive well. PvE is generally easy.

HigherMinion · Jun 27, 2012, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Actually it is a great place to test a build such as his to reveal its weaknesses. Otherwise in most pve areas his build should survive well. PvE is generally easy.

General PvE doesn't have the kind of disruption and shutdown you see in Fmaw. Slaver's is a nice place because of the balanced mobs; as is WiK. Not so much for WoC because mass-mobs; similar to BLA. You wouldn't test a build there unless it was specifically for that mission.

Daesu · Jun 27, 2012, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

General PvE doesn't have the kind of disruption and shutdown you see in Fmaw. Slaver's is a nice place because of the balanced mobs; as is WiK. Not so much for WoC because mass-mobs; similar to BLA. You wouldn't test a build there unless it was specifically for that mission.

I can't think of a WiK area that he should have a problem with. Yes, I also don't like to ask someone to test their builds on BLA because not everyone can do that quest. I have already done BLA for all my characters so I can't test any build there myself.

I could be wrong but I don't think the build would have much of a problem with Slavers either. However it can be interesting since Forgewight has high degen.

Radian · Jun 28, 2012, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Thx for the suggestion, I'll try to add in some more defense. Idk what BLA is and I haven't started WiK yet. In my experience, I have found this build working well for me in most HM missions but I do not think that it will survive some of these HM dungeons or elite areas such as domain of anguish. I haven't actually done domain of anguish before though. I assume that many of these elite areas may require a build focused specifically for that area in order to survive.

Jeydra · Jun 28, 2012, 01:32 PM // 13:32

You're really brave Radian, uploading a screenshot of yourself failing at a certain build. Good for you, you deserve better then. Here're several concrete points on what your build fails at, and what you can do to improve it.

1. Illusion Mesmers are basically antimelee Mesmers because you can't make a good Illusion bar without using Ineptitude, Wandering Eye or Clumsiness. I don't like them, although they have their place. Still using one Illusion Mesmer is not necessarily bad. Using two, however, is overkill. You weaken your teambuild against anything that doesn't attack. Individually, I'm deeply skeptical of Channeling because you generally don't want your Mesmer within range of monsters for it. If you find you need the energy the Inspiration line isn't short of options - Waste Not, Want Not is probably the best replacement.

2. You're using three Dom Mesmers whose only damage on demand skill is 2x Energy Surge. Yes, there are other skills there that deal damage but they're all reactive. You can't get damage on demand, so you can't kill anything on demand either. Incidentally, you have multiple stacked hexes such as Empathy. Since casting two Empathy's on one target doesn't make Empathy more powerful, this is a waste. Also you have Panic + plenty of interrupts but also Backfire, which is bad because interrupted spells don't trigger Backfire.

3. You're using Elementalists as your mesmers, which is definitely not a good idea. Elementalists can only cast Dom spells at 12 Domination Magic, way worse than the 16 Dom that Mesmers cast at. This applies to your build as well. You cast your spirits at 12 Channeling, which is way worse than the 16 at which a primary Ritualist will cast. It doesn't help either that you've got spells with long cast time (Energy Surge, Mistrust, Empathy, Backfire) on those Elementalists who necessarily cannot have Fast Casting. Unless you have very strong reasons to use the secondary - Ether Renewal is one such possible reason, as is Soul Reaping - you are much better off using your primary skills.

Don't get me wrong. Dom Mesmers are top tier heroes, and rightfully so, but you're not using them right.

4. Finally you're trying to run with one healer. The ER Ele isn't a healer, because he doesn't have heals (only prots). I've tried hard to make builds with only one healer work, but against the more difficult areas they're not safe. Yes, it is possible to make them work if you micro like a madman, but you WILL see your team's party bars go up and down a lot, which is always a danger because once that happens deaths aren't that far away. In this case the problem is not with your specific bars, but with the concept itself. I've tried all sorts of builds with only one healer. Even with a very powerful healing build (Monk with Healer's Boon, or N/Rt with pure heals only), it does not work. Exact reasons I don't particularly know. Maybe when you do take damage the healer cannot outheal the damage even if he has the energy, maybe he was KDed, maybe he was interrupted, etc.

In any case I strongly suggest using two heroes with bar push. You don't need to have strong healers - these days I run with one Kaolai, one Spirit Light, one Mend Body and Soul, and 2x Divine Healing (backed by UA) as my healing skills. But you need them on two different heroes.

5. Five resses is not good, especially the resses you're using. In general the best resses in PvE are UA, Death Pact Signet, and Res Sig, in that order (Res Chant has a place as well, but you can really only use it on a Mesmer). That's because if you're dying, you really need to avoid taking more damage. Flesh of my Flesh pushes you further down the road to wiping, many other resses don't put your resurrected guy back to high health, etc. Flesh of my Flesh does have a place once you know what you're doing, e.g. if you're microing it it works just fine, but until then I suggest against it.

How to fix this build:

Use something from the Assassin line on the player. If you don't want to go to melee, spec something from Deadly Arts. Note: if you do go into melee, the rest of your build must change to accomodate it. I suggest asking Relyk then, because I'm no melee expert.

Assuming you stay ranged, then cut one Illusion Mesmer for something else (minions are great, as are spirits - there's a reason why just about everyone are using them).

Assuming you switch off SoS, use a SoS Rit. The standard SoS template is the most powerful hero out there right now for all ranged players.

Cut your two Dom Eles for something else. If you want to keep the Dom Magic skills, I would replace the Panic Mesmer and, using the free Mesmer switched over from Illusion Magic, use two Dom Mesmers (i.e. two Dom Mesmers + 1 Illusion, no Panic). If you don't want to use Dom Mesmers, then you can spec your Eles as real Eles (the EA Fire template is good), or you can try dabbling with Necro bars (if you're not already using a minion master, seriously consider one).

Put some bar push on your ER Ele. Infuse is good; if you don't use Infuse then you'll have to spec into Healing Prayers and bring some healing spells.

Good luck!

Radian · Jun 29, 2012, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Jeydra, thanks for the response. I can now see the lack of synergy that my build has presented. The interupt skills make backfire less useful. The long casting times are tough for an elementalist.

I think I want to switch back to a 123 assassin using "Save Yourselves!" and then I can just put an SoS hero in my place. This shout seems to be very overpowered. I think here is what I'll try:

1. me (123 assassin)
2. SoH monk hero with healing burst and some heals
3. n/rt healer
4. e/mo protter with infuse
5. SoS rit hero
6. dom hero with esurge
7. dom hero with esurge
8. illusion hero

Does this look good? I tried putting in two healers as you suggested. Is a minion master needed?

Net The Nabi · Jun 29, 2012, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Healing burst is decent but less than optimal at this point of the game. Swap that for UA or WoH. You can swap the emo out for a basic MM with 3/4 prots and you should be fine in most areas. AoTL, Bone Minions, BoTM, Taste of Death,(whatever you want your 4 base skills to be), SolS/shielding Hands, Prot Spirt, Aegis, Shield of Absorbtion.

Having a MM + SoS is good because the SoS can utilize AR better with minions.

I suggest swapping the E/Mo for MM because they don't work awesome together if you choose to run infuse, and MM's can use prots pretty well. You rocking SY! is also much like a prot and thus you wont NEED the emo. yopu cover up for when the MM must recast minions or whatever.

I'm a HUGE fan of not having a dedicated hero but a multifaceted one.

For Example -
My SoS bar usually looks like this. SoS, Bloodsong, Spirt Siphon, Splinter, ARage, MBS, PWK, Spirit Light. Very basic/meta, but why waste a hero spot on 2 full heals when n/rt + half works just as well?

If you choose to do this, you can drop the Healing Burst Monk for a N/mo. Go curses for the physical buff, and no SoH at 12 isnt as good at 16, but its not a HUGE drop off, and the utility is almost too good to pass up.

Radian · Jun 29, 2012, 02:51 PM // 14:51

I like your reasoning for using a necro minion master over an ER protter. I will bring one. I'll also try for a curse n/mo with SoH. Maybe I can use that sabway bar with SS, barbs, enfeebling blood, rip enchantment, etc. Is this build enough healing? Jeydra was suggesting two healers. This build would now have only a n/rt healer and a n/mo minion master with prots. The n/mo SoH might have a few defensive smite skills. Other defense would come from "SY!", minions, spirits, and the mesmer hexes.

Daesu · Jun 29, 2012, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radian

Is this build enough healing? Jeydra was suggesting two healers. This build would now have only a n/rt healer and a n/mo minion master with prots.

He was also suggesting that the SoS rit can bring restoration skills, so that you would have 2 healers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I'm a HUGE fan of not having a dedicated hero but a multifaceted one.

For Example -
My SoS bar usually looks like this. SoS, Bloodsong, Spirt Siphon, Splinter, ARage, MBS, PWK, Spirit Light.

His suggestions make sense to me. I usually bring a MM with prots or a ST rit with Shelter and Displacement. The MM shines most in the 4/6-man areas, you can also use him in most 8-man areas. The ST rit is useful in many 8-man areas and requires less micro.

Radian · Jun 30, 2012, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Ok thx I understand.

Here's what I have now:

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Flashing blades does feel like a bad elite but there's not really another elite that I can think of as an A/W that fits in this build. The closest other elite I can think of would be to put in a few points in deadly arts and put in Assassin's Promise and then use that with "By Ural's Hammer!" if I am ever in trouble.

Net The Nabi · Jun 30, 2012, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Spiteful Spirit doesn't work so well with the rest of your build. You have 3 mesmers that shutdown enemies, so SS isn't an effective elite. Go with Pain of Disenchantment or Lingering Curse. I like LC for the 20% heal "effect" of it, and because I usually run Enchant Removal on my mesmers. PoD is good too though, or IV as both will help you more than SS at this juncture.

The N/rt healer is good, but I would change one thing, drop the elite for IV. If you choose IV on both Necro's its decent damage output and considering how my next piece of advice adds ANOTHER weapon spell to the build you will be overwriting yourself like a MOFO. Also consider dropping life for Recuperation, it works wonders for me.

As an alternative to the above would be drop the SS all together, use a Smiting monk with either RoJ or UA as the elite, and go /P for another copy of Fall Back. You can then fit the curses skills on the N/rt healer. Enfeebling Blood and weaken Armor are the most important ones.(drop the res and weapon of warding for those skills, and seeing as they work fine at a very low spec, like 5, you're not losing out on anything)

As far as the SoS goes I would drop Painful bond for Splinter weapon because as a melee, it can add damage to your build like nothing else, Especially with Channeling at 16.

The Mesmer with remove hex should just have shatter hex.

The illusion mes should have sig of clumsiness over accum pain imo.