Curse

HigherMinion · Oct 07, 2011, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

1.Meele crappy hero AI says hi

(oh, and those bars have pets also, which are even more stupid than a meele hero)
2.Life isnt' optimal, but fill a slot and provides party heal. Invoke maybe is "meh" only when there are more then 3 mobs clumped (and when there's only one anyway), Illu is situational but works. Matter of opinion/needs is guess.
3.I can't see how you can call Shelther meh tbh tho. Expecially cause you're suggesting to go w/o any kind of prot. Which in HM (and looking at bars is what he's trying to do i guess) is nearly a suicide.
4.I'm the first to say Invoke can be swapped.But dual Dom mes usually leads to overlapping and counteracting. Sogm rit isn't bad (even if not great...) but isn't worth losing the only prot source.
5.Barrage (or volley) + splinter makes hitting mop target quite sure. Single target, even if theorically superior (your sins) isn't in the hands of AI.

There really is nothing wrong with melee. Pets are meh and very unresponsive, though. Life is slow because the hero will use it on recharge and lag behind if your team is fast. You really don't need both Life and PwK.

Invoke is always meh. It's elemental damage. Armour ignoring damage is always better in HM; esurge or FoC. Nothing wrong with dual Dom mesmers; heroes don't overlap Mistrust and rupts, they chain them. SoGM rit just makes Painful Bond more worthwhile.

Just to be clear; I wasn't advocating a 0 prot team; all Minion Bombers have prot.

Barrage is fine; the player can run what he likes, but I would have taken Triple Shot and Dualshot for more concentrated MoP triggers.
p.s. I swear I wrote this before...

Premium Unleaded · Oct 07, 2011, 01:01 AM // 01:01

The player is ap mop.

Lanier · Oct 07, 2011, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

The player is ap mop.

I think the point being made is that the player bar is incompatible with the hero build. While he is running a good physway player bar, the heroes are more of a traditional casterway team. I brought up the idea of making the team more physwayish, but if he wants to use a caster-based damage build for his heroes, then a change of player bar would be recommended (maybe a minion master build?)

Slowpokeking · Oct 07, 2011, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Anyone tried Barrage with Order of Pain+ Order of Vampire? It's also pretty amazing.

Chthon · Oct 07, 2011, 03:16 AM // 03:16

OK. Barrage is not going to do a great job of triggering MoP. Only 1 arrow is going to hit the MoPed target, so you're basically getting triggers at bow speed. Bleh.

If you want to design a hero team around AP-MoP, I suggest you consider the following:

1. Yes, melee hero AI sucks, but you can work around it to some degree, and they are absolutely the best at pushing out physical packets. I run 2x VoS dervs when I want heroes for AP-MoP, since I find they pack the most punch on their own, in addition to kicking out lots of packets to trigger MoP. Higher Minion's whimsical LF sin will kick out more packets than anything, but it's virtually worthless whenever it's not getting boosted by MoP/Barbs/Orders/etc.

2. The other way to go is to put bows/spears on everything. Bows/spears do not do a great job of generating packets (the few multi-packet bow attacks are all crap b/c of their recharge (or being Forked Arrow)), but you can get a reasonable effect by having multiple people attacking. The ranged nature of bows/spears usually makes the response time faster than melee.

3. Minions. Even though they're not going to follow orders, a swarm of minions usually manages to hit whatever you want hit at least a few times. Since ST has become a more standard backline fixture, I've moved away from minion bombers and towards minion masters (as best the hero AI can manage it) in order to avoid burning out Shelter on Bone Minions.* As an added bonus to MoP/Barbs, Bone Fiends attack faster and at range.

(* Explanation: Set aside the monsters' AoE damage abilities for a minute. A single-target hit directed at a minion is a hit that's not getting directed at a party member, so the cost to Shelter is going to be the same as long as the hit would trigger Shelter in either case. Bone Minions burn out Shelter to the extent that things that wouldn't trigger Shelter if they hit a player would trigger Shelter if they hit a Bone Minion because their AL and max hp are so much lower. With Masochism bringing Death Magic to 18, Bone/Vamp Horrors and Fiends have warrior and caster grade armor, respectively, and hp that's almost on par with a player.)

Toraen · Oct 07, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

The point of the bow is that Barrage when buffed with splinter will trigger MoP multiple times for a spike, much like VoS or HB with Whirlwind attack will generate multiple MoP triggers. The only reason you'd use a splinter barrage though, instead of a melee like VoS, HB, or Locust's, is that the hero doesn't need to position at all and will generally be targeted less due to it.

Essence Snow · Oct 07, 2011, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

Anyone tried Barrage with Order of Pain+ Order of Vampire? It's also pretty amazing.

Quote:

Elite Enchantment Spell. Enchants all party members (5 seconds.) These party members steal 3...13...16 Health with each physical damage attack. Party members under another Necromancer enchantment are not affected.

seeing that both are nec enchants....well u get the picture

Slowpokeking · Oct 07, 2011, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

seeing that both are nec enchants....well u get the picture

Oh ok, but even with 1 is good.

MelianCeleh · Oct 07, 2011, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

OK. Barrage is not going to do a great job of triggering MoP. Only 1 arrow is going to hit the MoPed target, so you're basically getting triggers at bow speed. Bleh.

If you want to design a hero team around AP-MoP, I suggest you consider the following:

1. Yes, melee hero AI sucks, but you can work around it to some degree, and they are absolutely the best at pushing out physical packets. I run 2x VoS dervs when I want heroes for AP-MoP, since I find they pack the most punch on their own, in addition to kicking out lots of packets to trigger MoP. Higher Minion's whimsical LF sin will kick out more packets than anything, but it's virtually worthless whenever it's not getting boosted by MoP/Barbs/Orders/etc.

2. The other way to go is to put bows/spears on everything. Bows/spears do not do a great job of generating packets (the few multi-packet bow attacks are all crap b/c of their recharge (or being Forked Arrow)), but you can get a reasonable effect by having multiple people attacking. The ranged nature of bows/spears usually makes the response time faster than melee.

3. Minions. Even though they're not going to follow orders, a swarm of minions usually manages to hit whatever you want hit at least a few times. Since ST has become a more standard backline fixture, I've moved away from minion bombers and towards minion masters (as best the hero AI can manage it) in order to avoid burning out Shelter on Bone Minions.* As an added bonus to MoP/Barbs, Bone Fiends attack faster and at range.

(* Explanation: Set aside the monsters' AoE damage abilities for a minute. A single-target hit directed at a minion is a hit that's not getting directed at a party member, so the cost to Shelter is going to be the same as long as the hit would trigger Shelter in either case. Bone Minions burn out Shelter to the extent that things that wouldn't trigger Shelter if they hit a player would trigger Shelter if they hit a Bone Minion because their AL and max hp are so much lower. With Masochism bringing Death Magic to 18, Bone/Vamp Horrors and Fiends have warrior and caster grade armor, respectively, and hp that's almost on par with a player.)

The point is to trigger MoP with splinter. At the moment the ranger is running Volley to trigger it + single target skills to drop the AP'd foes quickly. (Volley hits 3 targets. 3*53 + 3*42 = 285 damage with "one" skill that is pretty spammable.

The minions are usually slightly behind and when I need shelter which is in the beginning of the fight the minions are not usually there to eat my shelter. Shelter provides protection if any foe manages to get anything off in the beginning and the minions will tank most of the damage after that. I will try MM (not a bomber) but I'm not sure how well it's gonna perform without AotL. (Need BiP)

Chthon · Oct 07, 2011, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelianCeleh

The point is to trigger MoP with splinter.

That's not going to work reliably with hero AI in charge of the Splinter. It's just not going to get prioritized over everythng else on its bar. And it also rules out using spears on anyone since the AI will give them even priority with the bow. Even if you microed Splinter all the time, you'll still probably have issues with recharge. (AP and Barrage can go a lot faster than Splinter.)

MelianCeleh · Oct 07, 2011, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That's not going to work reliably with hero AI in charge of the Splinter. It's just not going to get prioritized over everythng else on its bar. And it also rules out using spears on anyone since the AI will give them even priority with the bow. Even if you microed Splinter all the time, you'll still probably have issues with recharge. (AP and Barrage can go a lot faster than Splinter.)

The rit keeps on casting it on the ranger on recharge. Also if I micro it before the fight and the rit casts it once during the fight it's usually enough to take most of the foes down and at that point splinter is kinda useless.

AndrewSX · Oct 07, 2011, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Let's put this way:
If those where a 3/4 human party, it would work pretty good. Like a manly spike, actually.
Splinter on physi dealers, a baller, a mop caller etc.

But cause you're using a 1 player + 7 heroes party (and the player is the mop) you HAVE to do some compromises. And generally speaking those depends mostly on preference of the player, so there isn't a RIGTH teambuild, but lots of variants for it.

Change te physi dealers, 2x dom or dom+illu, ER vs. ST, 2x rangers or eles, 3x paras, you get the point.
My first post (second int thread) was trying to give advices on improving the teambuild w/o changing the team in composition too much for that reason: there are tons of ways to abuse of mop/splinter/physi dmg. Too much ways.

HigherMinion · Oct 07, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Let's put this way:
If those where a 3/4 human party, it would work pretty good. Like a manly spike, actually.
Splinter on physi dealers, a baller, a mop caller etc.

But cause you're using a 1 player + 7 heroes party (and the player is the mop) you HAVE to do some compromises. And generally speaking those depends mostly on preference of the player, so there isn't a RIGTH teambuild, but lots of variants for it.

Change te physi dealers, 2x dom or dom+illu, ER vs. ST, 2x rangers or eles, 3x paras, you get the point.
My first post (second int thread) was trying to give advices on improving the teambuild w/o changing the team in composition too much for that reason: there are tons of ways to abuse of mop/splinter/physi dmg. Too much ways.

You don't need a baller in 7h. If you need a focal point for luring better, you throw PS and ball as a caster, then call.

Daesu · Oct 07, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Here is an old screenshot of an experimental MoP necro using 3-heroes:

You want faster attacks, not barrage, and if you use minions, fiends would work better.

Slowpokeking · Oct 07, 2011, 04:07 PM // 16:07

So nobody likes OoP or OoV?

Calista Blackblood · Oct 07, 2011, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

So nobody likes OoP or OoV?

There is no reason to take either.

Slowpokeking · Oct 07, 2011, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood

There is no reason to take either.

+19 armor ignoring damage/lifesteal per hit for the whole team, not bad.

AndrewSX · Oct 07, 2011, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Unless using at least 3x physicals, i don't see any reason. Well, you're going to take only 1 of those 2 anyway, but to help a single ranger doesn't make sense.

MelianCeleh · Oct 07, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

+19 armor ignoring damage/lifesteal per hit for the whole team, not bad.

It is when you have 7 casters.

Anyways I don't know if it's fast but I did Raisu Palace in 10:01. I haven't completed it too many times so I'm sure I could get maybe a minute off it or so. Maybe more, no idea really. Don't really know what could I skip etc.

I was running a slightly modified build of the one on first page. The MoP+Splinter sometimes took whole mobs down really quickly. Going to do some more testing + build modifying :]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Here is an old screenshot of an experimental MoP necro using 3-heroes:

You want faster attacks, not barrage, and if you use minions, fiends would work better.

I don't need faster attacks, they make the group run around and it won't do much. A single spike from Volley ranger with splinter from Rit & MoP on the target will do a lot of damage. That plus all the other heroes is enough to take them down quickly.

Calista Blackblood · Oct 07, 2011, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

+19 armor ignoring damage/lifesteal per hit for the whole team, not bad.

It is when you need a necro with 18 BM to achieve,an attribute line well known and versed for being utter crap. The only other skill worth even considering would be Dark Fury,but if you need it,you have worse problems than adrenaline. Notably lack of ablity.