Curse

MelianCeleh · Oct 06, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Hello,

I've been running a build like this lately. I would like to hear honest your opinions about the barrage/pet ranger to trigger MoP with splinter.

!NEW! Testing this build on the ranger atm: OgkjcpZsJSnSOGPGghybWY4a8a
(Also BiP on the team so no energy problems either.)

I'm not much of a build maker so the bp ranger build is probably kinda terrible and I really don't know if the ranger's worth it except in places with lots of huge mobs that can easily be balled up.

Criticism related to the other builds (which are mostly copypasted off pvx/forums) feel free to post it too!

EDIT: The last slot is kinda optional. I've been running without a mm lately tho.

AndrewSX · Oct 06, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Umh let's see....

-I'd swap sig of creation for GolE, looks more reliable for compensate the 2 hexes (well, in this way becomes just the EFGjack's ST, but w/e...)
-Change patient too. heroes always use it followed by another heal (cause hp from it isn't immediate) leading generally to overhealing/energy waste. Sig of rejuv is a nice one, but not the only one. possible to invest some points in Prot too, if you want to use some stuff from there.

-You asked about Mop+Ranger. Well, my personal opinion is that Mop isn't THAT powerful in a human+7hero setup, mostly for balling/reliability of his dmg. Is too conditional.
Btw, if you want to stick with it (is still nice if lands enough times) i'd change the Ranger build from barrage+pet to a Volley(same thing, less range: but with splinter up doesn't matter much) + Bow attacks with Expert's dexetery as Elite (almost perma IAS and marks buff). Pet isn't worht it anyway, expecially for mop triggering.

-I'd ditch another copy of FB somewhere, and swap painful bond for bloodsong (not trust sos hero using properly).

Last but not least: looking the team at his whole... i'd use
a)2x Ranger, kicking Ele, using volley+splinter for dmg/mop trigger/adren machine, so a couple of para shouts fits very well. b) 2x Eles, and get rid of Splinter and mop c) trow in a Bip nec for e-management (you can drop a skill for ene on Mes and UA) and another hero of choice. just some imputs.

Quaker · Oct 06, 2011, 03:26 PM // 15:26

I'd add Poison Tip Signet in place of one of the pet attacks and replace Lightning Reflexes with something else - maybe Whirling Defences or some spirit that's useful in the particular area (taking the points out of BM and putting them in WS), but I tend not to use pet attacks for damage. Instead I use pet attacks that do something like poison, interrupt, knock-down, etc, that don't require points in BM.

I find that an IAS (such as Lightning reflexes) isn't all that useful on a Hero because of the way they use their skills. They don't tend to use an IAS and then spam Barrage (or Volley) like a human would. Instead they use various skills and basically waste the IAS.
Personally my Ranger heroes use mostly an interrupt build based around Broad Head Arrow, Distracting Shot, and Disrupting Lunge (with Volley, Poison Tip Signet, a rez, and a pet, plus an optional skill such as a spirit or Whirling Defences) - or a Splinter/Barrage build (less often)

MelianCeleh · Oct 06, 2011, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Umh let's see....

-I'd swap sig of creation for GolE, looks more reliable for compensate the 2 hexes (well, in this way becomes just the EFGjack's ST, but w/e...)
-Change patient too. heroes always use it followed by another heal (cause hp from it isn't immediate) leading generally to overhealing/energy waste. Sig of rejuv is a nice one, but not the only one. possible to invest some points in Prot too, if you want to use some stuff from there.

-You asked about Mop+Ranger. Well, my personal opinion is that Mop isn't THAT powerful in a human+7hero setup, mostly for balling/reliability of his dmg. Is too conditional.
Btw, if you want to stick with it (is still nice if lands enough times) i'd change the Ranger build from barrage+pet to a Volley(same thing, less range: but with splinter up doesn't matter much) + Bow attacks with Expert's dexetery as Elite (almost perma IAS and marks buff). Pet isn't worht it anyway, expecially for mop triggering.

-I'd ditch another copy of FB somewhere, and swap painful bond for bloodsong (not trust sos hero using properly).

Last but not least: looking the team at his whole... i'd use
a)2x Ranger, kicking Ele, using volley+splinter for dmg/mop trigger/adren machine, so a couple of para shouts fits very well. b) 2x Eles, and get rid of Splinter and mop c) trow in a Bip nec for e-management (you can drop a skill for ene on Mes and UA) and another hero of choice. just some imputs.

Thanks for quick answer.
The ST is pretty much EFGJack's. (Atleast according to some topic) I've tested some other ST builds too but this one really outshined the other one as it can keep the shelter up alot more due to it having less spirits. I will change it to GoLE, didn't even think of it.

I've noticed heroes seem to use patient spirit at bad times so I guess it's a good idea to change it.

My main problem here is that I don't really know what else should I run instead of AP/MoP. I've been trying to figure out a good build for a necro but I've had no luck. I'd like to let the heroes handle the minions so that's out of question. That's why I'm trying to have atleast one hero triggering MoP alot. I did some testing and sometimes it basicly destroyed the whole group in like a second but if the foes weren't balled up nicely enough it was kinda useless.

I will try the Volley instead.

Also the ele usually runs second copy of FB, forgot to add it there.

I will try the build with the changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I'd add Poison Tip Signet in place of one of the pet attacks and replace Lightning Reflexes with something else - maybe Whirling Defences or some spirit that's useful in the particular area (taking the points out of BM and putting them in WS), but I tend not to use pet attacks for damage. Instead I use pet attacks that do something like poison, interrupt, knock-down, etc, that don't require points in BM.

I find that an IAS (such as Lightning reflexes) isn't all that useful on a Hero because of the way they use their skills.

I wouldn't add any conditions other than dazed/blind as the mobs usually die way too quick for them to deal any damage.

AndrewSX · Oct 06, 2011, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelianCeleh

My main problem here is that I don't really know what else should I run instead of AP/MoP. I've been trying to figure out a good build for a necro but I've had no luck. I'd like to let the heroes handle the minions so that's out of question. That's why I'm trying to have atleast one hero triggering MoP alot. I did some testing and sometimes it basicly destroyed the whole group in like a second but if the foes weren't balled up nicely enough it was kinda useless.

Well, in Campfire there's a Nec section, take a look there. Even PvX could give you some ideas (but don't just copy/paste: isn't rare find crap there).

Btw, generally speaking, ignore Blood and focus on Curse, maybe Death for creating builds in pve. FoC is a option, SS a classic, OotU is the only way to use MM imo (the thrill of getting killed by sac for dmg.. aahhh.), some use FD (mes elite) on nec too (is good, but w/o FC i find it kinda slow...still good stuff, no ene worries). AP can be used not in combination of mop anyway.

MelianCeleh · Oct 06, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Well, in Campfire there's a Nec section, take a look there. Even PvX could give you some ideas (but don't just copy/paste: isn't rare find crap there).

Btw, generally speaking, ignore Blood and focus on Curse, maybe Death for creating builds in pve. FoC is a option, SS a classic, OotU is the only way to use MM imo (the thrill of getting killed by sac for dmg.. aahhh.), some use FD (mes elite) on nec too (is good, but w/o FC i find it kinda slow...still good stuff, no ene worries). AP can be used not in combination of mop anyway.

I wouldn't touch blood that's for sure. I've been trying to find a decent curses build but there seems to be no good (for a human player atleast) curse elite. SS is pretty terrible in my opinion. The damage isn't that great if my mesmers pretty much shut down the whole group and it also feels really slow. I don't know about FoC but it doesn't seem a very good skill for a human player. (Long recharge, not so huge damage afterall and small area)

Death magic on the other hand has too many skills that deal cold damage (especially the area of effect ones) so I haven't found a useful death magic build either. (Won't touch minions that's for sure

)

I haven't tried any FD builds. Been thinking about trying one but I'm not sure if it's gonna be that useful either with the mesmers shutting everything down anyways.

AP can be used with something else but I can't think of anything else other than mop.

HigherMinion · Oct 06, 2011, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I don't know what others have advised but:

1. Locust Fury sin is pro for triggering MoP!

2. Life is meh, Shelter is meh and barrage without Great Dwarf Weapon is meh. Invoke, also Meh. Illusion line is meh.

3.Instead of meh, try another dom hero (esurge) a Minion Bomber instead of invoke, SoGM rit or a nec with some resto stuff/curses. Also drop Life for Bloodsong (Painful Bond is nice with saoGM rit too)

4. Barrage is bad because you're focusing on getting optimal usage out of MoP, which is only on one foe; you gain no advantage to hitting all of them.

Maybe look at this: http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Locustway

Premium Unleaded · Oct 06, 2011, 04:19 PM // 16:19

MoP is a waste with only that ranger as the physical triggerer. I'd drop the last 3 for 3x volley or spear paras; 1 com, 2 motis.

AndrewSX · Oct 06, 2011, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I don't know what others have advised but:

1. Locust Fury sin is pro for triggering MoP!

Meele crappy hero AI says hi

(oh, and those bars have pets also, which are even more stupid than a meele hero)

Quote:

2. Life is meh, Shelter is meh and barrage without Great Dwarf Weapon is meh. Invoke, also Meh. Illusion line is meh.

Life isnt' optimal, but fill a slot and provides party heal. Invoke maybe is "meh" only when there are more then 3 mobs clumped (and when there's only one anyway), Illu is situational but works. Matter of opinion/needs is guess.

I can't see how you can call Shelther meh tbh tho. Expecially cause you're suggesting to go w/o any kind of prot. Which in HM (and looking at bars is what he's trying to do i guess) is nearly a suicide.

Quote:

3.Instead of meh, try another dom hero (esurge) a Minion Bomber instead of invoke, SoGM rit or a nec with some resto stuff/curses. Also drop Life for Bloodsong (Painful Bond is nice with saoGM rit too)

I'm the first to say Invoke can be swapped.But dual Dom mes usually leads to overlapping and counteracting. Sogm rit isn't bad (even if not great...) but isn't worth losing the only prot source.

Quote:

4. Barrage is bad because you're focusing on getting optimal usage out of MoP, which is only on one foe; you gain no advantage to hitting all of them.

Barrage (or volley) + splinter makes hitting mop target quite sure. Single target, even if theorically superior (your sins) isn't in the hands of AI.

MelianCeleh · Oct 06, 2011, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I don't know what others have advised but:

1. Locust Fury sin is pro for triggering MoP!

2. Life is meh, Shelter is meh and barrage without Great Dwarf Weapon is meh. Invoke, also Meh. Illusion line is meh.

3.Instead of meh, try another dom hero (esurge) a Minion Bomber instead of invoke, SoGM rit or a nec with some resto stuff/curses. Also drop Life for Bloodsong (Painful Bond is nice with saoGM rit too)

4. Barrage is bad because you're focusing on getting optimal usage out of MoP, which is only on one foe; you gain no advantage to hitting all of them.

Maybe look at this: http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Locustway

Point of barrage is to trigger lots of splinter hits which will trigger MoP. It is quite a huge spike with both splinter and MoP. I like ill mesmer as it handles all the melee really well and even the casters do wand sometimes.

I don't like melee AI, they seem to do stupid stuff.

I like shelter, it provides really nice defense even if some ele boss managed to cast stuff like rodgort's.

The last slot is optional and I sometimes use a minion bomber.

I don't want a huge amount of spirits, the damage is really nice vs single target but if I constantly move they won't always be there. I was running 3x rit before and it was slower than 2x rit 2x me 2x ele + monk. I would only use 3x rit if facing dhuum etc. + There's no way I'm gonna drop ST rit for SoGM as like Andrew said it'd be pretty suicidal.

Invoke is not meh when using an AP caller. I find it rather nice as it helps kill the AP'd targets quickly. PLUS most of the time the groups are so small/not balled up that it wouldn't hit over 3 targets anyways so the limit is not a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

MoP is a waste with only that ranger as the physical triggerer. I'd drop the last 3 for 3x volley or spear paras; 1 com, 2 motis.

One splinter won't be enough for 3x paras and also I don't think they'll drop AP'd targets that quickly.

Lanier · Oct 06, 2011, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Meele crappy hero AI says hi

Melee AI isn't nearly as bad as it is made out to be. I use melonni in my hero physway builds, and she has no problems at all with targeting, or anything else really. I have observed her pretty closely compared to the barrage rangers (which I also occasionally run in physway builds), and I have seen no problems with her AI at all.

Physway builds are, in my opinion, the most powerful 7H builds available. Heroes are good at using physical buffs like orders, the curses skills, rit weapon skills, etc. and the damage can stack up really fast and reliably if you have two physicals and minions in the party. If I were you, I would focus less on the mesmers/Invoke and more on getting more damage in the party through another physical and some more buffers (necroes probably - they can bring orders and curses and can run support skills from the rit or monk lines on the side). I also highly suggest using ER prot over ST + shelter. Heroes use monk prots far more efficiently than the communing spirits.

FoxBat · Oct 06, 2011, 05:42 PM // 17:42

As you correctly pointed out, the point of Barrage is big splinters. I'd consider a 2nd splinter weapon as buffing your damage output more than any curses. Just get someone to 10 channeling and it's good.

MelianCeleh · Oct 06, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

As you correctly pointed out, the point of Barrage is big splinters. I'd consider a 2nd splinter weapon as buffing your damage output more than any curses. Just get someone to 10 channeling and it's good.

I usually micro splinter before battle and the rit will cast it during the battle. Should be more than enough to kill the group excluding maybe a foe or two -> second splinter wouldn't be that great.

@Lanier
I'll try ER prot later but the good thing about st rit is that the heroes actually use it before getting hit -> it will protect while er hero uses it after unless microed.

Lanier · Oct 06, 2011, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelianCeleh

@Lanier
I'll try ER prot later but the good thing about st rit is that the heroes actually use it before getting hit -> it will protect while er hero uses it after unless microed.

True, but heroes use it immediately after the initial hit, so prot spirit still comes up on the target almost as soon as the target is hit. Plus, an ER has access to spirit bond, shield of absorbtion, aegis, and other prots (i also throw infuse on mine - heroes are good at using infuse to catch spikes). I never micro my ER and he works extremely well at keeping my party alive.

MelianCeleh · Oct 06, 2011, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

True, but heroes use it immediately after the initial hit, so prot spirit still comes up on the target almost as soon as the target is hit. Plus, an ER has access to spirit bond, shield of absorbtion, aegis, and other prots (i also throw infuse on mine - heroes are good at using infuse to catch spikes). I never micro my ER and he works extremely well at keeping my party alive.

I'm not saying it's bad or anything. I just like ST rit and don't micro it either. I will try ER later. :]

AndrewSX · Oct 06, 2011, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Melee AI isn't nearly as bad as it is made out to be.

Possible, but i wouldn't use something (mop) that rely only on that source of dmg...they're still, if you think not that crappy....desperately dumb.
Well, Dervs are enough OP atm that even a hero can be useful, that's true.

But if your aim is abuse of physical dmg, i would use Rangers heroes anyway: no lack of positioning problem, range, some aoe (mostly using splinter + volley/barrage).

itiscurtains · Oct 06, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Agree with Lanier here - while melee heroes are idiots, they do have the wherewithal to shadowstep to a called target and to start wailing away on it. And really, with a dual-mes midline and an SoS + ST backline, you can pretty much fill in the rest of the party with whatever you'd like. Whenever I run my N/A, I usually include a couple of VoS Dervs in my retinue (although I have been testing out the LF sins lately).
But it doesn't really seem as though the op is looking to make a physway build. Personally, I'd drop the pet and make the Ranger into a P/R with Soldier's Fury, Volley and Command shouts. More utility, better IAS, less pet-related mishaps.

WarcryOfTruth · Oct 06, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelianCeleh

Hello,

I've been running a build like this lately. I would like to hear honest your opinions about the barrage/pet ranger to trigger MoP with splinter.

http://static.gwcom.de/pawned/7de29f2e79176937.jpg

I'm not much of a build maker so the bp ranger build is probably kinda terrible and I really don't know if the ranger's worth it except in places with lots of huge mobs that can easily be balled up.

Criticism related to the other builds (which are mostly copypasted off pvx/forums) feel free to post it too!

EDIT: The last slot is kinda optional. I've been running without a mm lately tho.

As a necromancer you have endless possibilities of greater damage capabilities than... that thing... you have equipped now, I don't even know what to call it.

On topic: I think it's fine, but it probably won't trigger as often as you're hoping for.

MelianCeleh · Oct 06, 2011, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

As a necromancer you have endless possibilities of greater damage capabilities than... that thing... you have equipped now, I don't even know what to call it.

On topic: I think it's fine, but it probably won't trigger as often as you're hoping for.

I would like to see some of these possibilities you talk about

Oh yeah and it surely won't trigger as often as I'd like. Hence the splinter + ranger.

The pet build is long gone. I'm testing this atm:
Sundering Attack
Penetrating Attack
Distracting Shot
Volley
Signet of Return
"Go for the Eyes!"
Keen Arrow
Expert's Dexterity

Also @ Lanier, I tried ER, didn't like it at all. I'll stick to ST Rit.

Wenspire · Oct 06, 2011, 08:55 PM // 20:55

RE your ranger, you may want to bump his Expertise up a bit to help reduce EN use (unless that isn't a problem). Not sure what runes you are running but my hero usually manages to get 13 exp, 12 marks and 9-10 in BM.

May also want to toss out Savage Shot since you have a Mes dedicated to shutdown. If not, maybe replace it with Disrupting Shot since it a longer recharge. It would help with his EN management.