Curse

ArKaiN · Mar 20, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

First off, let's check your join date. September. Like me. Except... a year later. I've played this game since June 2005 and that was a good build before Halloween 2005. So please, YOU stop posting if you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Second, Assassins have energy problems? You obviously don't play one. A smart sin brings alot of crit attributes, that's one of the sin's trademarks compared to say a R/A. They just regain energy, sometimes as much as they spend.

Dervishes rely on enchantments but who strips them? At least in AB, RA, even TA. You people always claim enchants are a hassle? I'd like to see you doing something about removing them.

Don't even talk about HA please, because if you think HA/GvG are the only important forms of PvP, get a grip. Some guilds do hardcore TA and win 30 in a row, others cap AB, etc; everyone has their own taste in PvP, just because something works in a larger scale battle doesn't mean it will in a smaller, more compressed one.

It's obvious nobody uses Warriors in PvP for damage anymore, you claim they have the highest DPS, that's because their natural attacks deal more than the other classes. Even with some of the Warrior's skills they DO NOT compare to those of a BoA sin, or even something ridiculous like a Scythe wielding R/D.

I agree with a lot of this, but If you think D's and A's out DPS a good warrior in limited pvp, you're just wrong. A hammer wielding quarterback still kills squishies like nobody's business, and with kickass armor to boot.
It has to do with playing style. I've seen warriors with mediocre builds but good strategy/positioning take out whole teams in RA/TA.

Lord Natural · Mar 20, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

It's obvious nobody uses Warriors in PvP for damage anymore, you claim they have the highest DPS, that's because their natural attacks deal more than the other classes. Even with some of the Warrior's skills they DO NOT compare to those of a BoA sin, or even something ridiculous like a Scythe wielding R/D.

What game have you been playing? Not to put too fine a point on it, but you suck at warrior if you think they do no damage and don't compare to BoA or other gimmick crap. You want to compare a Scythe wielding R/D to a Warrior? Give me a break.

Let me guess, you play BoA sin in AB's and own up on hapless warriors who don't have a monk? Absolutely, you take a standard BoA sin and face him off against a warrior with no d chop, stances, or monk, and the Sin will probably win every time. The only thing this tells me about Guild Wars, is that AB's are a joke, not that a BoA sin is anything more than a gimmick.

Your arguments seem based on monkless encounters with no team support. A decent monk who can spot expose defenses coming will render a BoA sin essentially useless, all on his own. That's not even taking into account team support. You stop the spike, then basically have the luxury of forgetting about that sin until his combo is ready again. Facing an intelligent warrior (as a monk) you have to constantly follow his movements, getting ready to prot his targets. It's an entirely different thing than facing a sin.

Franco Power · Mar 20, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

lol at Wretchman: what makes me laugh is you telling Undressed that.

and

Quote:

I typically play an Eviscerate Axe Warrior for GvG because I bought a Sephis Axe, some 15k armor, and wanted to play with it on obs mode like any good PvPer. I'd also like to run Skull Crack, but my guildies won't let me. =( Originally, I was on Ranger, my preferred class, but we ended up putting an extra Warrior in the build and I could finally bust out that Sephis Axe. Also, with a Warrior you can just c-space while eating. That way my pizza won't get cold before I eat it.

or

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Warrior, mostly sword builds. I like to mix up my secondary profession for something new, and my latest addiction is Warrior/Elementalist. Silver Armor can do some nasty things when you use it to tank. Warrior/Assassin is my standby build, since Shadow Stepping and a few other Assassin skills often come in handy. My Assassin and Paragon also get a fair amount of playing time but still take a backseat to my main.

Warriors will never die.

My-way Ftw · Mar 20, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Let me guess, you play BoA sin in AB's and own up on hapless warriors who don't have a monk? Absolutely, you take a standard BoA sin and face him off against a warrior with no d chop, stances, or monk, and the Sin will probably win every time. The only thing this tells me about Guild Wars, is that AB's are a joke, not that a BoA sin is anything more than a gimmick.

Ive played Warr and Sin in AB, and the sin spikes faster, gets out quickly.

D chop.... why would that be a problem?
Stances? Meet 'Expose Defences'
Monk? Ill take him first then.

And fyi, BoA sin is a very capable build in many aspects of PvP, for its ability to shadowstep in, spike, then jump out pretty fast.

Not going to start an argument, but as far as pvp goes, my view is sin > warr.

moriz · Mar 20, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

let me just say this: 1 BoA assassin is NO THREAT to any decent monk. hell, four BoA assassins is NO THREAT to any decent monk. they are extremely easy to counter if they do not have caster support.

on the other hand, 1 shock axe warrior is extremely dangerous. from a monk's point of view, that 1 shock axe > 4 assassins.

Age · Mar 20, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Why do people compare warriors to dervishes and sins? Theyre apples and oranges really. Especially sins have almost nothing in common with warriors. Warriors have a thick skull and they can pump out damage without using any skills at all. As for tanking, tanks are useless/dull/insertrandominsult IMO. I finished the entire nightfall campaign with a hammer warrior and I wasn't disappointed. Knocking down running healer NPC's is just sexy. When I played a warrior in any PvP arena I quickly found out that dervishes don't do much of their insane damage anymore when they are lying on their butt. IMO warriors aren't dead. Do people use them in either GvG or HA very much btw? wouldn't know that since I dont do those too much.

The reason who can do the most amount of damage in either PvE or PvP.When I have played my Warrior all this time I have never played it as a tank only as a true Warrior to do massive amounts of adrenal damage.I have always used my weapon mastery and not strength.I wouldn't say the Warrior is dead just not so usefull anymore untill maybe another balance for the Dervish.

Swift Thief · Mar 20, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

So you want ANet to make PvE easier by making it so tanks and hold aggro better? Geez, PvE is already easy enough...

Marverick · Mar 20, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Warriors have never been of much use in PvE. They are inferior for damage dealing the same reason a Mesmer is inferior for shutting down casters - they can only target single enemies effectively. Warrior tanks don't work well in your normal PuG because most of them require Dolyak Signet to gain 40 armor, and bringing that in a PuG is just plain suicide. Without that a Dervish will outtank a Warrior anyday with his arsenal of superior self-healing and defense.

As for damage, as much as I don't like it, SF Elementalists and SS/MM Necros just have the best DPS possible in PvE. There's really nothing else to say here.

PvP, the warrior is far from dead. As said, if a Sin's chain gets interrupted he is left auto-attacking for damage worth half a rat's rear end. Dervishes are extremely vulnerable to energy denial, imo more weak to that than enchantment shattering. The Scythe also attacks slower and loses its inherent AoE because no one in organized PvP stands together (excluding RA here, I've tanked 3 warriors at once because they were kind enough to stand together :P). The slow attack rate especially hurts spiking power, and Scythes lack deep wound without utilizing one of their Elite skills.

Age · Mar 20, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Warriors have never been of much use in PvE. They are inferior for damage dealing the same reason a Mesmer is inferior for shutting down casters - they can only target single enemies effectively. Warrior tanks don't work well in your normal PuG because most of them require Dolyak Signet to gain 40 armor, and bringing that in a PuG is just plain suicide. Without that a Dervish will outtank a Warrior anyday with his arsenal of superior self-healing and defense.

As for damage, as much as I don't like it, SF Elementalists and SS/MM Necros just have the best DPS possible in PvE. There's really nothing else to say here.

PvP, the warrior is far from dead. As said, if a Sin's chain gets interrupted he is left auto-attacking for damage worth half a rat's rear end. Dervishes are extremely vulnerable to energy denial, imo more weak to that than enchantment shattering. The Scythe also attacks slower and loses its inherent AoE because no one in organized PvP stands together (excluding RA here, I've tanked 3 warriors at once because they were kind enough to stand together :P). The slow attack rate especially hurts spiking power, and Scythes lack deep wound without utilizing one of their Elite skills.

Quote:

As for damage, as much as I don't like it, SF Elementalists and SS/MM Necros just have the best DPS possible in PvE. There's really nothing else to say here.

I rarely doubt this part of it as I don't and never have played a tank. I can kill 3 targets faster than an SF Ele can or Nuke this is with both my sword and axe Warriors.The same can be said for an ss/mm Necro.

The Mad Man · Mar 20, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

I think the only problem with warriors is that the may be one of the most counterable classes in the game. Almost every condition and a ton of spells can basically rend you useless for twenty seconds. Sure, you can bring condition removal, hex removal, etc, but what does that lave you with? six skill slots to make a build? And dont even get me started on relying on others...
-Still alive, but crippled

Marverick · Mar 20, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I rarely doubt this part of it as I don't and never have played a tank. I can kill 3 targets faster than an SF Ele can or Nuke this is with both my sword and axe Warriors.The same can be said for an ss/mm Necro.

Meh, you contradict yourself in your own post. You "rarely doubt this part" so you must concur with it. Then you go on to say how warriors do better damage...

I highly doubt you can kill faster than an SS necro. AtB/Aecho/SS/Reckless Haste will drop two Bladed Aataxes with their 1000+ HP in 15 seconds or so. You can deal more than 2000 damage in 15 seconds with your sword/axe/hammer/weird scythe warrior?

As for eles, a lone ele doesn't do much and even ele groups before Nightfall don't do much. But Searing Flames really allows eles to synergize with each other and produce amazing DPS. Two of them with Mark of Rodgort causes around 150 DPS to everything in a nearby range. That gives around 450 DPS to 3 targets, which in no way two warriors can match.''

-Above person- Every class can be counterable, warriors don't really have the most counters. They have all melee counters but aren't affected much by e-denial and are affected by adrenaline denial, whereas Dervs/Sins could care less about adrenaline but do crap damage when they don't have energy.

Xiaxhou of Trinity · Mar 20, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

Warriors were the masters of melee back in the day, now they can't tank as well as Dervs (hell, I've seen ele/dervs tank ffs), Sins can just plain kill faster, etc.

I think what he was saying is that it seems Warriors are dead because there is no cookie cutter build for them now. They seem to be inferior as Hammer builds to RaO, BoA sins can just kill faster, etc.

I remember back when I could run a Warrior Ranger with Tigger's Fury and Axe skills to wipe someone out fast. Now it just doesn't compare to other builds. The only good Warrior build I see out in PvP lately is a Steady Stance warrior with Drunken/Desperate blow. Other than that, nobody has made popular use of them.

wow this is flame bait. if you're talking about gimmick builds or meta game builds for pvp, be creative. I myself hate to even use boa or rao, and I strongly disagree wtih the steady stance war remark. there are lots of builds, try them out and use them. and screw people in RA that flame you saying "haha you guys suck". guess what, i'm testing a build so go run your boa or rao crap in ha or somewhere else!!!!Anyways, imho, warriors have become balanced out just as most (yes only most) other classes are. (damn rit spike/spirit camp builds in arenas, im still stumped on how to make a versatile build that can take those kind of builds on)

Matsumi · Mar 20, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Yea, you need to stop "tanking" or whatever it is you think your doing. You're actually kind of useless to a team if you just use stance builds and stand there. Or invinci-builds are pretty much useless as well... do some spike damage, interrupt, knockdown, cripple, or whatever else and kill something. Like somebody mentioned earlier, "Stop tanking and go kill something"

As for BoA sins or other trendy builds, I have no problems taking those guys out in PvP with my warrior much at all. A couple of knockdowns, wild blow, and a plague touch here and there kind of wrecks their whole build. Hex breaker would probably work too, but I haven't even put much thought into it. They usually run away after the first knockdown and wild blow anyway.

Nilator · Mar 20, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

A warrior was never ment to absorb damage in PvP.

Marverick · Mar 20, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

BoA sins are just bad for any sort of organized PvP... One d-shot into their Twisting Fangs and they won't even kill some ele who took superior energy storage. In fact it can't even kill a monk without any prot on the monk at all if the monk goes full minors.

Lord Natural · Mar 21, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by My-way Ftw

Ive played Warr and Sin in AB, and the sin spikes faster, gets out quickly.

D chop.... why would that be a problem?
Stances? Meet 'Expose Defences'
Monk? Ill take him first then.

And fyi, BoA sin is a very capable build in many aspects of PvP, for its ability to shadowstep in, spike, then jump out pretty fast.

Not going to start an argument, but as far as pvp goes, my view is sin > warr.

The point of my argument is that AB's are not reflective of high level pvp, or even beginner pvp (RA), as even in RA there are monks good enough to spot and deal with Expose Defenses. BoA sins are just noob catchers (in most cases), nothing more. I've slapped Backfire on Flare Ele's and watched them kill themselves in a couple of seconds. That doesn't mean Backfire is the ultimate skill which makes the mesmer > everything x infinity, and all other forms of casters obsolete.

Nerf 3-4 skills and the Sin will be as useful as inspiration magic. Nerf 3-4 Warrior skills and it will still be the best melee class.

jrk247 · Mar 21, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Nerf 3-4 Warrior skills and it will still be the best melee class.

QFT.

The warrior stances got nerfed and the warrior is still one of the best melee classes. Warriors have been nerfed so many times and they are still the best melee class. They have good offense, defense, and even healing. So I don't get where people keep saying that they are dead.

Cathode_Reborn · Mar 21, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Let me guess, you play BoA sin in AB's and own up on hapless warriors who don't have a monk? Absolutely, you take a standard BoA sin and face him off against a warrior with no d chop, stances, or monk, and the Sin will probably win every time.

Eh, not really....most of a sin's damage is armor-ignoring, so a war can use Heal Sig pretty safely while being attacked by one. The common Mending Touch is a nice way to slap a BoA sin in the face. Warriors become hapless when they get targeted by a Curses nec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorath Of Krosa

...but aggro control is needed to keep warriors usefull imo.....
Well thats is for now.

...This is why warriors have a horrible rep...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mad Man

I think the only problem with warriors is that the may be one of the most counterable classes in the game.

All it takes is Price of Failure Or Blurred Vision on a sin...if they miss a hit in their combo....poof...They're screwed. Unlike a Warrior, a derv is vulnerable to disenchantment and e-denial.

Franco Power · Mar 21, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

I'm pretty sure he's comparing skills like Eviscerate, Critical Chop, Cleave, etc, and that the only 3-4 sin skills played much are the shadow prison combo, the stances you referring have no effect in DPS or PvP.

Oh and to people that say, oh my assassin is better because i win 1vs1 and ABs, please come out with some better arguements before posting that. If anyone thinks the DPS of a warrior "suck", I suggest reading the thread "Why Nuking Sucks?" from Ensign [iQ], if actually playing a Warrior is out of the question.

Alanus · Mar 21, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

I believe what Wretchman meant is Warriors can't kill as fast as the other lame cookie cutter builds, aka BoA sin, etc. And the Bunny Reaper remark wasn't a stupid one, I've tried one (not good energy management wise), but I was able to whip off more damage than a warrior most of the time.

Warrior's aren't dead, but nobody knows a true use for them at times. No cookie cutter for them, poor things.

And I remember the Tiger's Fury warrior... That is no joke, we won more than 15 consecutive in TA once with one of those... It was the beginning of exploiting true DPS...