Curse

October Jade · Jul 01, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Two ideas which seem prevalent on these forums...

1) Strength is a terrible primary attribute.
2) It is inexcusable not to carry Flail in PvE.

Now my question to you: how much strength is needed to make the IAS stance worthwhile? Up to this point I've been maxing axe mastery and tactics, leaving strength with only the remainder. I'm still clinging to Healing Signet, "Watch Yourself!" and an occasional defensive stance. I dunno...I like my tactics, but alas: the times, they are a-changin'.

iridescentfyre · Jul 01, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Personally I PvE with a lot of Strength.. like 13 or so. For one, the skills linked to it are quite useful, and I personally like Sentinel armor. It also lets you break reliance on Healing Signet since you can use Lion's Comfort instead, which has some advantages. Strength lacks blocking stances, but has a lot of armor buffs and other survivability alternatives.

As for the Strength attribute itself, I don't really think its *that* bad, being able to ignore 13% of the targets armor on every autoattack isn't such a bad thing. I find it strange that the armor penetration from Strength is so unpopular here, when you look at the demand for Sundering weapon mods.

As for Flail, since its Adrenaline-based, you can get away with using it at very low levels of Strength... Even at 0 Strength it lasts 5 seconds, more than most other IAS stances without their linked attribute. And at 33% faster attacking, 5 seconds is plenty of time to rack up another 4 strikes of adrenaline.

Stormlord Alex · Jul 01, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

As for the Strength attribute itself, I don't really think its *that* bad, being able to ignore 13% of the targets armor on every autoattack isn't such a bad thing. I find it strange that the armor penetration from Strength is so unpopular here, when you look at the demand for Sundering weapon mods.

WRONG. Strength only procs on attack SKILLS, which is what makes it so damn useless.

And the majority of people buying sundering are clueless idiots who want it because a) it costs a lot, therefore *must* be good (lawl) and b) they li3k teh big numberz, cuz it pwnzorz noobz... And 20/20 does *look* bigger than 3

Even though vamp owns the crap outta sundering ESPECIALLY in high-end PvE - sundering actually deals less damage vs. higher armour.

Anyho, on topic : Yeah, Strength is pretty darn useless as is - you really need to be using strength skills. If Flail is the only one you're using, you can quite happily 3+1 Strength, as Flail has a decent duration at low levels. Then you could put them points elsewhere, buff up Healsig by 7 health

Personally? I'm running 9+1 Strength, for the 3 adrenaline breakpoint on Enraging Charge, for PvE.

Div · Jul 01, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Running a lot of strength is pretty nice because between flail and your spammable attack skills, those AP bonuses trigger a lot

farmpig · Jul 01, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Apart from using frail and enraging charge i dun really see the need for heavily investing in strength.

BTW i run a build with 9+1 strength and 9+1 tactics.

spyke136 · Jul 01, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

i run 14 str (for protection against weakness, i have sentinel's armor) i use this for enraging charge + flail + power attack and dolyak. let's me constantly do +30something damage using a zealous weapon. also allows me to tank with dolyak.

iridescentfyre · Jul 01, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

WRONG. Strength only procs on attack SKILLS, which is what makes it so damn useless.

Whoops, I had that backwards. My bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

nd the majority of people buying sundering are clueless idiots who want it because a) it costs a lot, therefore *must* be good (lawl) and b) they li3k teh big numberz, cuz it pwnzorz noobz... And 20/20 does *look* bigger than 3

Even though vamp owns the crap outta sundering ESPECIALLY in high-end PvE - sundering actually deals less damage vs. higher armour.

Agreed wholeheartedly, sundering sucks, blah blah blah... Doesn't change the facts of the market though, and it still looks like a double standard to me. ~10% Armor penetration on every attack skill from Strength is usually a whole lot more damage over time than 20/20 Sundering.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 01, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

I find it strange that the armor penetration from Strength is so unpopular here, when you look at the demand for Sundering weapon mods.

The majority of the pve crowd has always been unskilled and ignorant about the more complex mechanics in the game. A 20/20 hilt is currently the most expensive weapon upgrade....if you know how sundering works and seen the numbers, you'd know that right there shows how clueless people are, like Alex said. Swords are the 2nd worst weapon to put a sundering mod on (1st being daggers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

10% Armor penetration on every attack skill from Strength is usually a whole lot more damage over time than 20/20 Sundering.

That depends on the player. More attack skills = strength will trigger more. Even if you do spam attack skills, Strength is a very weak attribute.

Age · Jul 01, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I alway use 9+1 in strength as I use sprint and a few other skills at time if farming I use doylack signet instead of any high cost energy spells.

I do use flail as well at times if not frenzy and it is ok in pve more than ok.I use the shock/frenzy against the Ruby Dijnns with searing flames.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jul 01, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

If you have a decent idea on how to run a Warrior well, you can get away with running [skill=text]Frenzy[/skill] in some areas (obviously not HM or elite missions). I still run 9 strength (8+1), leaving me with enough points for a +20 [skill=text]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill]. Either way, I'm often more than willing to lower strength or tactics for a nice [skill=text]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill].

phool · Jul 01, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by October Jade

how much strength is needed to make the IAS stance worthwhile?

0 strength, if it's the only adrenal skill on your bar. But that's pretty unlikely on a w/x. I'd recommend 7 - 12+x+1 weapon, 11+(1-2) tactics, 6+1 strength for a solid 10 seconds while still getting a very nice watch yourself, soldier's strike and whatever else you may want from the line.

WY is basically the only reason to go tactics over strength in general pve though. 3-13% AP is pretty poor but it's still a little better than nothing and enraging charge is a very strong pve skill combined with flail. If someone else has got WY already then you're not really losing anything.

6am3 Fana71c · Jul 02, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

As for sundering mod mentioned above, I know it isn't anything special, but what sword prefix is? If you are looking for suffix mod, then fortitude will probably be #1 choice. But prefix mods are just stupid for general purpose (furious is good for adrenaline builds, but I'm not always using those, zealous is good in some situations but not all of them, etc.)

RotteN · Jul 02, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

regular 14/16 mastery / 11 tactics / 9 str does just fine for every strengthskill that's even worth considering (except enraging charge, since they changed the adrenaline gain breakpoint, need 10 str now QQ )

As for sundering : claiming it's completely worthless is just as moronic as claiming it's fsckin' godlike. It is a damageboost without negative condition, and when you just want to beat stuff in PvE without having to weaponswap, it's still a nice mod.

Marverick · Jul 02, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Vampiric does more damage than Sundering, so Sundering has very limited uses. At least Furious is decent with Dragon Slash, Zealous is good for spamming Protector's Strike or something.
Sundering is good as a weapon swap for when you're chasing kiters or if you're hexed with anti-melee crap and can't hit often enough.
If you're too lazy to weapon swap, there's a button in the Add/Remove Programs in the Control Panel that will solve your problem.

I run 12+3+1 weapon mastery, 10+2 tactics, and 8+1 Strength normally. Occasionally on some builds like a Dragon spammer I run 12+3+1 weapon and 12+2 strength since I will be using either Dragon Slash or Sun & Moon Slash every hit so every hit will have 14% armor penetration. I only use this if there is already a copy of WY! on the team, though.

T N Player · Jul 03, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

i just put str 8+1, i only use enraging charge and flail, the rest of skills in my option arent really helpful. i rather have more points in tactics for a better heal for heal sig

Rain Slip · Jul 06, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

u don't need fail in fact i never use it my build that i have now is perfect for the way i play and i end up hitting +43 etc every shot.

Muk Utep · Jul 08, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I PvE with 13 strength. I still haven't needed the armor from Watch Yourself! enough to warrant spending a bunch of points in tactics, and if I really need a self-heal, I'll bring Lion's. Flail is a must-have for me and it gets better with high strength. I run a Dragon Slash build that chains high-damage sword skills so I do get a decent benefit from strength.

If your hero setup isn't particularly defensive, and if you run a build without excessive use of attack skills, you might want to consider using tactics. Flail is usable without a big investment in strength. If you don't seriously need Watch Yourself! though, I'd recommend just going with strength.

The way I see it, strength and tactics both have nice skills. While the armor penetration from strength isn't particularly impressive, tactics gives you nothing if the skills aren't an integral part of your build.

Muk Utep · Jul 08, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

As for sundering : claiming it's completely worthless is just as moronic as claiming it's fsckin' godlike. It is a damageboost without negative condition, and when you just want to beat stuff in PvE without having to weaponswap, it's still a nice mod.

True, to an extent. It's a minor damage boost with no negative conditions, and you can go through all three campaigns just fine with a sundering weapon. Sundering is fine, but you can almost always get something slightly better. I think most adrenaline-based builds will benefit more from a furious weapon, an energy-based build will probably require a zealous weapon, and vampiric yields a (marginally) higher damage output.

Risa · Jul 08, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c

As for sundering mod mentioned above, I know it isn't anything special, but what sword prefix is? If you are looking for suffix mod, then fortitude will probably be #1 choice. But prefix mods are just stupid for general purpose (furious is good for adrenaline builds, but I'm not always using those, zealous is good in some situations but not all of them, etc.)

An "adrenaline" build? What sword bar doesn't carry adrenaline skills? Furious is a good for standard use, as is vampiric. And to the thread starter. Ever since EC was slightly nerfed, I've been running strength at 10, along with tactics, and my weapon mastery at 16. (18 armor on "Watch Yourself!" saddens me though.)

Muk Utep · Jul 08, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

An adrenaline build is one that focuses solely on adrenaline, gaining it and using it to the best effect, and manipulating it as much as possible. Dragon Spam is a good example of an adrenaline build, whereas a build using something like Conjure X, Whirlwind Attack, Hundred Blades and Sun and Moon Slash isn't really an adrenaline build despite using one or more adrenaline skills.