Curse

Byron · Sep 11, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Here is an interesting thing - a warrior build that can pump out damage per second without the aid of the typical frenzy/sprint, build/spike mentality.

The premise of this warrior was interesting; observing the use of dragon slash on a sword warrior for near-constant combos, i glanced at other skills for possible support options to that build. But instead, I found Battle Rage, which to my knowledge is rarely used in PvP. Double adrenaline? Speed buff? So there the ideas sparked of how to abuse this skill.

This following was the result:

**Before flaming the build, please take a look at my video of its' performances:

(The first link is decent quality, size ~26 megs. The second is lower quality, size ~12 megs. The network that the files are stored in is a little temperamental, so please be patient with the downloads. You might have to try more than once to get the download prompt...my apologies.)

Rage Theory video, moderate bps (26 mb)

Rage Theory video, low bps (12mb)

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Profession: W/x
Name: Rage Theory

Type: Competitive/general PvP
Category: Damage

Attributes: 12+3+1 swordsmanship, 12+1 Strength

Skills Set:

Protector's strike (strength)
Sever artery (swordmanship)
Gash (swordsmanship)
(optional adrenal sword skill) [suggested: Sun and Moon slash]
(optional adrenal sword skill) [suggested: Standing Slash]
Battle Rage {elite} (strength)
Endure pain (strength)
Resurrection Signet ()

Equipment:

15^50 furious sword of fortitude (primary)
15^50 vampiric sword of fortitude
+30 health/-5 damage(20%) Strength shield

Full set of sentinel's armor (except for helm, of course.)

---

The real end of the build is to kill things consistently, without the aid of building up spikes and/or risking life with frenzy.

Protector's strike is your best friend, since the build has no knockdown or snares by design. However, with the 25% speed boost of battle rage, and the inherent armor penetration of protector's strike due to high strength spec, and the already considerable damage buff because of the skill itself, it will often land for 80-90 damage against a moving softie. Every three seconds, i might add, GG.

The adrenal chain is the killing power of the build, though. The application and re-application of deep wound is scary-effective. Building up the adrenaline for battle rage takes only 4 hits, and once triggered, every adrenal skill on the bar will recharge at a quicker rate than you can attack with. The important part of the build is the re-application of bleeding with sever artery, and deep wound with gash. The other adrenal skills become spammable damage buffs that make a softie's life go away.

Now, the best way to run the build is to keep battle rage up at all times. This means that, when the skill on your upkeep monitor starts to blink, it is time to hit battle rage again. This will make all of your adrenaline be lost - but it's not a big deal: with rage up, and with protector's strike being used, it will only take a few seconds for the adrenal chain to get going again.

Survivability could be an issue. The build calls for the use of Sentinel's armor, since the strength spec is high, and there is no other method of self-protection. With 100 armor across the board, it becomes very hard to damage a rage theory warrior. Endure pain can be used for countering spikes, overextending, or simply to prevent death for 18 seconds.

Please take a look at the video for what is, IMO, the best way to utilize the skill set.

I like to think this build is on par with the reckless bunny-thumper mentality.

Notes & Concerns:
No knockdown, little to no utlity, little room for change or improvement. Typical concerns of being weak against hexes and conditions. Condition removal can be remedied by running a W/N with plague touch instead of an adrenal skill or endure pain. Knockdown can be remedied by running a W/E with shock instead of an adrenal skill or endure pain; can also be run with bull's strike instead of protector's strike.

Credit: I'm sure it's been thought of before, but this is the first build I've seen to use battle rage so effectively. So, regrettably, I take the majority of the credit.

I may update this thread with axe or hammer "Rage Theory" builds, as I work on them. I doubt they'd be as effective as sword for DPS, though.

Thanks for considering my new build, ya'll. All comments and concerns appreciated.

**EDIT: Replaced Galrath slash with standing slash. It is a more effective use of adrenaline, as pointed out by those who replied.

Ogel · Sep 11, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

I'll give this a whir right now, I believe. Good work!

EDIT: Fort Aspenwood fixes your problem. Bull's Strike! Also, swap Galrath Slash for Standing Slash. Cheaper, and you'll hopefully be in a stance always.

Racthoh · Sep 11, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Shock and Plague Touch would both end Battle Rage, at which point snaring the enemy for a few normal sword swings seems hardly worth it. Plague Touch, well if you're waiting out the conditions anyway you aren't getting much use out of Battle Rage anyway.

But as is, it does seem fairly solid for applying a good amount of pressure. Spamming Protector's Strike as often as possible is tempting to play with. Personally I would use Standing Slash over Galrath Slash, 1 less damage but only 6 strikes of adrenaline.

Symbol · Sep 11, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

According to, *ahem*, skills.txt, bull's strike is due for a mild nerf, making protector's strike more attractive in comparison.

I second the suggestion of switching out galrath for standing. Then you can do:
standing, gash, sun and moon, protector's, indefinitely with no regular attacks in between.

Scourgey · Sep 11, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

I recommend strength of honor & Axe because axe has in my opinion more useful adrenaline skills and does more damage than sword on crits (which is what always happens on fleeing foes)

11 + 4 Axe,
10 + 3 Strength,
10 Smiting Prayers.

Battle Rage (E),
Dismember,
Axe Rake,
Executioners Strike,
Disrupting Chop,
Wild blow (can work well with fast adrenaline regen) or Bull's strike,
Strength of honor,
Ress/distracting blow,

Use an axe & shield with damage/health under enchantment to offset 2 superior runes.

However battle rage builds aren't on par with bunny thumpers because they do not produce as many knockdowns, but they are certainly better at chasing down fleeing foes.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 11, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

At 16 axe and 13 strength [4 tactics with leftovers or whatnot] I think an axer will definitely pour out more pain than a swordsman. If we were to use cripple as our snare [hah, sword can't do that without blasting 10e... yowch]

I'd take the build and make it more like this:

Protector's strike (strength)
Disrupting Chop (Axe Mastery)
Dismember (Axe Mastery)
Axe Rake (Axe Mastery)
Executioner's Strike (Axe Mastery)
Battle Rage {elite} (strength)
Endure pain (strength)
Resurrection Signet ()

I think this would generate a LOT more dps vs. your sword build, what's worse, an adrenaline based cripple and skill lock easily makes this build much more utilitarian deadly than bleeding, cripple...

However, I'm certain the 'big name' people would just say that Frenzy, Sprint, Eviscerate {E}, exe. Strike would kill people more than what I just mentioned, and sadly, I might have to agree... gah*

Symbol · Sep 11, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

No way that axes will beat swords for dps in this build. Axe is shit without eviscerate. Sun and moon slash generates 4 strikes of adrenaline under battle rage, and axe doesn't have a 6 adrenaline +42 damage attack either.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 11, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

No way that axes will beat swords for dps in this build. Axe is shit without eviscerate. Sun and moon slash generates 4 strikes of adrenaline under battle rage, and axe doesn't have a 6 adrenaline +42 damage attack either.

I already mentioned that, no point in repeating what I said

...

Thing is, as far as adrenaline based skills are concerned, there is no sword skill that's +42 dmg [FS don't count seeing that you empty your adrenaline which could be very bad for Battle Rage and only works best at 50% hp or less]

If you're always landing crits? Then Axes will win, hands down, no ifs, ands, or buts... The Cripple built in will ensure that you're landing hits, all the time, every time, the sword build can be kited if the enemy also has a speed stance, rare, but it could happen...

The sword build lacks a skill lock, if enemy can't use a skill to keep you off, then you'll do more dps...

Can an axe do more dps? Well, I was thinking maybe 2 Penetrating strikes [chop and blow] along with dismember and disrupting chop could land ya in the DPS dept. Blasting an axe skill with practically each and every swing with 13. str. will do more damage than sword skills that don't +dmg...

For the conditions, Sever Gash vs. Dismember and Axe Rake, I'd bet more people will win with the latter than the former...

But now this is getting situational, for a sword build, I'll just nod and say fine...

Symbol · Sep 11, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

I already mentioned that, no point in repeating what I said

No you didn't.

Quote:

Thing is, as far as adrenaline based skills are concerned, there is no sword skill that's +42 dmg [FS don't count seeing that you empty your adrenaline which could be very bad for Battle Rage and only works best at 50% hp or less]

Uh, have you even looked at the sword skill list? Galrath, silverwing, standing all do either +42 or +43 damage at 16 spec. Standing is 6 adrenaline too.

Quote:

If you're always landing crits? Then Axes will win, hands down, no ifs, ands, or buts... The Cripple built in will ensure that you're landing hits, all the time, every time, the sword build can be kited if the enemy also has a speed stance, rare, but it could happen...

You won't always land crits, smart people will know not to run with your back towards you once you turn on a speedboost. Cripple is nice enough, but is easily removed in organized pvp.

Quote:

The sword build lacks a skill lock, if enemy can't use a skill to keep you off, then you'll do more dps...

Disrupting chop is useful, no disagreement there.

Quote:

Can an axe do more dps? Well, I was thinking maybe 2 Penetrating strikes [chop and blow] along with dismember and disrupting chop could land ya in the DPS dept. Blasting an axe skill with practically each and every swing with 13. str. will do more damage than sword skills that don't +dmg...

Please, please read the posts before your own.

Gash, sun and moon, standing, protector's. Can be repeated back to back as long as battle rage is up. All of these skills either have +damage or an extra strike.

You can't do that with 2x penetrating + executioners + protector's (why the hell are you bringing up dismember, it doesn't have any + damage at all?). You still need _three_ regular hits to charge executioner's. It's not even _close_.

Basically the reason to go axe w. battle rage is disrupting chop, and maybe cripple. It's not damage.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 11, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

No need for me to argue with your "I'm on soapbox, better than you" posts...

I do read previous posts, stop being a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO...

Standing Slash adds adrenaline, not damage, so what? Adrenaline skills build crazy fast whether you use axe or sword for BR, but for Axe, you probably won't overcharge, whereas sword, you will. I've done Axe BR builds before, they work... They build adrenaline in such a way that your WHOLE bar isn't charged all the time, but at least 1 skill is always ready to go. For efficiency, that's the better way to do adrenaline chains... Keeping charged skills in your bar all the time would be good if you could unleash them all as one strike [lol]...

Dismember doesn't add damage you say? Deep wound is damage, crazy psychotic damage. You need to blast 2 skills to do that with sword. I only need one. If you don't use Axe Rake, you can replace that with Penetrating Blow, that's good armor breaking dmg right there...

Even with Factions, the Axe should be better or at LEAST as good as a sword in terms of being an adrenaline user.

Axe was adrenaline king before Factions and now I think they're neck and neck, no problem there, but to say that a sword is always going to be stronger than axe for DPS is rather ignorant...

It's like saying W/Mos are the only good runners... Which unfortunately, might be the case... gah*

There's no point in posting counters either, wth are you doing anyway?

Also, for that final line, the OP said the build's weaknesses are quite numerous: No utility, no room for change/improvement. I'm thinking the Axe has the utility and room that the sword does not... Adrenaline based conditions and a skill lock, there ya go, some weaknesses removed and the critical damage good at cancelling out the non-critical dmg.

A good Axe BR. But for spikes, I suppose Axe will always be better at that, no doubt...

CHUIU · Sep 11, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Go try it out in RA and see how fast you die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

It's like saying W/Mos are the only good runners... Which unfortunately, might be the case... gah*

I've seen Mo/R's do runs wammos can't, and Me/W's do droks and FF runs.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 11, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

Go try it out in RA and see how fast you die.

I killed quite quickly with my BR Axe build actually. Dismember + Exe. Strike is the 2nd best spike an axe has. When you're repeating it in half the time, the spike's duration between uses can = DPS if totally calculated.

I have tried these builds before and I've been an Axe W/N since before you even played this game...

However, I do have a life outside this game and I don't have time to playtest mechanics. That's what gamedorks with no lives are for...

I'd like to fight you toe to toe and see how fast I can kill you...

Kakumei · Sep 11, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Standing Slash adds adrenaline, not damage, so what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standing Slash

If it hits, Standing Slash deals +5...17 damage plus an additional 5...17 damage if you are in a Stance.

Please know what you're talking about before you start talking.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 11, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Good catch

Sun and Moon slash adds adrenaline, not damage...
I rest my case...

typo...

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 11, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Ah well, might as well contribute to the optional skills if possible.

both versions of Axe and Sword BR

16 weapon, 13 str, etc.

Protector's Strike
Sever Artery
Gash
Standing Slash
Galrath Slash
Battle Rage {E}
Plague Touch - if you're blind/crippled, etc. you're not gonna hit anything anyway... May as well let THEM suffer conditions
Res Sig

Protector's Strike
Penetrating Blow
Penetrating Chop
Dismember
Exectioner's Strike
Battle Rage {E}
Plague Touch
Res Sign

No choice there since the Axe's +dmg skills are somewhat limited in Prophecies, but with Factions, mirroring Penetrating blow is something. If ya want to add in that all-important cover condition, I suppose Bull Strike and Lacerating Chop instead of Prot. Strike and Pene. Chop would work, but since Lac. Chop is too conditional, Sever wins the 2 conditions game.

Still, since Axe has a higher total of +dmg skills here (2 of them ignoring 20% armor), I'd still like to suggest that it does more damage. [unless you don't want to apply deep wound, which would make ya a damn lunatic for a warrior and anyone who's seen deep wound in action knows it...]

Symbol · Sep 11, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Sun and Moon slash adds adrenaline, not damage...

What, an extra strike isn't damage?

Seriously, just stop posting if you aren't going to spend 5 seconds looking up what these skills do.

rii · Sep 11, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I have tried these builds before and I've been an Axe W/N since before you even played this game...

'My bum has been a bum for a very long time but I don't have to listen to anything it says'
~ Terry Pratchett

As for the builds, the top version by Byron is ok... I am of the personal opinion that a warriors basic DPS is fine as is, and going to this extreme to buff it isn't particularly helpful. You get decent DPS for free, so using the skills to create spikes seems much more useful (in a non-crazy DPS build scenario). As for replacing thumpers or being similar in any way I disagree. Thumpers is almost just as much about pet corpse manipulation as it is the thumper itself. This build doesn't offer that aspect. KD and IAS are also incorporated into thumper and are also missing from this (guardian hate too). I tried this in RA and against the dummies, and in actual fact a thumper levels both areas faster (although this still worked).

I think overall that is a good enough battle rage warrior, but the fact it doesn't compare to a thumper is more to do with inherent characteristics of the two builds rather than a pure skill choice issue.

As for the axe variant, again it's ok but not spectacular.

Byron · Sep 12, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Thank you one and all for the replies - they have been helpful to the devlopment of the build.

As for the development of different weapons for the "Rage theory" build, I could see some potential in axe due to its utility skills such as axe rake and disrupting chop. However, the DPS isn't that great, and it's really hard to justify not bringing eviscerate. I get an empty feeling in my stomach seeing dismember hit for less than 20 damage.

And hammer use in battle rage is not worth trying - the attack speed is too slow. You could get an orison off easily in between attacks, and that's simply bad pressure

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoth

Personally I would use Standing Slash over Galrath Slash, 1 less damage but only 6 strikes of adrenaline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I second the suggestion of switching out galrath for standing.

Dually noted, and I agree with the skill change. I'll edit the original post very soon - I just can't figure out why I didn't see this in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourgey

I recommend strength of honor

This actually interests me to the point where I will test it and other maintained enchantments; thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I'd take the build and make it more like this:

That's actually the build I first tried for my axe-battle-rage tryouts. While the snare effect is nice, as is the spammability of disrupting chop, the DPS is borderline unworkable. An executioner's strike every 4 hits isn't all that great when you're trying to apply damage pressure, IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Basically the reason to go axe w. battle rage is disrupting chop, and maybe cripple. It's not damage.

Very true - I was thinking there could be a good synchronization running an axe and a sword Battle rager on the same team. But, thats untested and only a speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Well, I was thinking maybe 2 Penetrating strikes [chop and blow] along with dismember and disrupting chop could land ya in the DPS dept.

I tried that also, and while they can be used very often within the build, they really don't do much damage. In a warrior build where there is no IAS, big damage buffs are necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

Go try it out in RA and see how fast you die.

RA really is a poor place to judge a build, but I did take my rage theory out there, just to make sure. Got a glad point out of it, haha.

Any damage-loaded warrior build will die fast in RA due to the enormous adundance of warrior hate (for good reason, I might add).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kuniaski

Still, since Axe has a higher total of +dmg skills here (2 of them ignoring 20% armor), I'd still like to suggest that it does more damage.

The effectiveness of the adrenaline gain and the condition application makes sword much better. I don't need math to say so - I've tried both builds extensively, so please trust me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

You get decent DPS for free, so using the skills to create spikes seems much more useful (in a non-crazy DPS build scenario). As for replacing thumpers or being similar in any way I disagree. Thumpers is almost just as much about pet corpse manipulation as it is the thumper itself. This build doesn't offer that aspect. KD and IAS are also incorporated into thumper and are also missing from this (guardian hate too).

All good points there. While I'm not sure what the DPS comparison for thumpers versus the rage theory is, thumpers do have useful skills on their bar. That said, my build (equipped with sentinels armor), has much more surivability. I'm not sure if that would justify replacing a thumper with a rager - in fact i'm pretty sure it wouldn't.

But imagine a rager and a thumper on the same target. Deadly, IMHO.

Thanks again for the replies, and good hunting.

Evilsod · Sep 12, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

Go try it out in RA and see how fast you die.

Ah yes the place of all knowing and everlasting proof builds are crap.

I took my Ettin farming build into RA when i was bored.

Sever
Gash
Galrath
Final Thrust
Battle Rage
Sprint
Liv Vicariously
Mending

Guess what.... i won the first 3 battles flawlessly.

However it does prove that using maintaned enchantments in a build with practically 0 energy cost is always a good thing. But in terms of Strength of Honour... would it be worth it? You'd have to drop damage 1 way or another, either by reducing Strength, therefore Battle Rage or by reducing Sword/Axe which would limit SoH. Not only that but you then leave yourself open to skills that require enchantments, be it Shatter Enchantment, Melandrus Arrows, etc. To them you'll just be another target for additional damage.

How can you say that a Thumper and a Rager would be deadly? A Thumper and practically anything would be deadly. Without evasion/block or the slightest common sense to kite, a single Hammer Warrior can take down almost anything in ABs, throw in a thumper to agro monks for good measure and a snarer... you have dead opponenents fast. I can't remember now how many times i've come across warriors who seem to think because your wielding a hammer you'll be an easy target... then they get hit for a 300 damage hammer combo and change there minds.

ogami_ito · Sep 12, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

I'm wondering...wouldn't bulls strike be better in this, or is protectors strike needed because it can add adrenaline quicker?