Curse

Nexus Icon · Apr 09, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Okay, so after a 6 month sabbatical, I've come back to GW.
Figuring I'm probably out of touch with what build is the flavour of the month, I thought I'd check up, and lo & behold, there's God Mode being proclaimed the most effective PvE build (not taking into account Ursan of course).

So I figure "What the Hell, let's give it a shot".

First things first, I needed to get my hands on the PvE skill "Save Yourselves!".
Here was my first major gripe.
I've never been part of an alliance, and my guild has never been about gathering faction, but I have enjoyed a lot of Fort Aspenwood.
So over the years, I have gained quite a substantial amount of Luxon faction.
So what's wrong with this picture?

Well, where I should be a rank 3 "Companion of the Luxons" I'm merely rank 1.
This means that SY only lasts 3 seconds as opposed to 4.
The reason my rank is so low is that most of my faction was traded for jade before trading for jade contributed to the title and before PvE skills were implemented.
So not a good start.

The fact that I then had to grind to 100,000 faction annoyed me even more, but I did it. I can only guess how bored someone must be to grind their way to the top of this title track. 10,000,000 is rather excessive :|

So anyway, I finally get the title and buy the skill and try the build.
Only to be MASSIVELY disappointed in just how boring, let alone flawed, the build is.

Why boring?

Well, once you've got your adrenaline up, the build basically consists of spamming 2 skills; "Save Yourselves!" and Dragon Slash. And because at rank 1 SY only lasts for 3 seconds, you can't really deviate from that otherwise the shout will drop.

And why flawed?

The build is so easily broken by anti-melee, which is very, VERY common. Skills such as [skill=text]Soothing Images[/skill] or [skill=text]Sympathetic Visage[/skill] for example, or any blocking stance or blinding skill are going to cut off your adrenaline gain.

Sure, this argument can be made about a lot of Warrior builds, but if you go for pure damage and the team aren't relying on you to help keep them alive, then you not gaining adrenaline doesn't affect the team anywhere near as badly.

So I'm going back to the build that was loaded on to my warrior when I logged back in:

14 Strength
15 Axe
[skill]enraging charge[/skill][skill]"For great justice!"[/skill][skill]flail[/skill][skill]critical chop[/skill][skill]disrupting chop[/skill][skill]eviscerate[/skill][skill]executioner's strike[/skill][skill]agonizing chop[/skill]
OQATEZJXnxweV4r6VqiUBqsXBA

This build is fun, requires some thought and attention and is great for disrupting the enemy as well as dealing significant damage.

In conclusion, PvE skills are imbalanced and are ruining the way the game should be played.

Antithesis · Apr 09, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Add Brawling Headbutt to the GodMode and it becomes a useful knocklocker. You've got three skills on your pseudo-PvP bar for interrupts, I'll take the GodMode for the bar compression and greater utility.

Furthermore, if adrenaline denial is causing you grief, i heard hex/condition/stance removal were good. Spread the love around, you're not operating in a vacuum.

Zil · Apr 09, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Well, you could also try the Earthshaker thing and stick 'Save Yourselves!' on it. I find it more fun then the dragongodmodelawlzorsbrawlingheadyourselvesomfgimi mmortalandmypartyaswellahaha build.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:W/...E_Earth_Shaker

Nexus Icon · Apr 09, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Believe me, I tried the cookie cutter knocklocker combo build, and I found that at rank one faction allegiance, you're so busy concentrating on keeping SY up, you haven't got time to set the knocklock combo off.

And the knocklock combo itself rankles against my old school GW sensibilities.
It relies on PvE skills too.
You shouldn't need imbalanced PvE skills in order to play. You should be able to play any mission or area effectively with the skills that are available in both PvE and PvP.

As for hex/condition/stance removal, well, it doesn't matter. As long as the enemy manages to hit you with just one of those things for just long enough, the build breaks. And I play monk and mesmer regularly; I know how hard it is to keep those things off of your frontline. As long as you can't prevent hexes/conditions/stances, they will get through, even with the best monk or mesmer, and they will break the chain.
Sure, there are areas where these build-breaking things are rare to non-existent, but they are few and far between these days and nowhere near enough to justify playing a one-trick, mind-numbing build such as this.

Racthoh · Apr 09, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

The build won't work if you don't take every necessary precautions to make it work in every situation. However, keeping warriors/physicals clean should be the #1 priority of any group anyway. Ultimately nothing has really changed from what you and the rest of your group should already be doing, otherwise how are you killing anything to begin with?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Sure, this argument can be made about a lot of Warrior builds, but if you go for pure damage and the team aren't relying on you to help keep them alive, then you not gaining adrenaline doesn't affect the team anywhere near as badly.

If the team is relying on SY to win then the SYer must be able to perform at all times. This means you will need enchantment removal, lots of hex and condition removal, stance removal or some kind of anti-block skill like Rigor Mortis with Assassin's Promise to make it available to whatever the warrior is attacking. You cannot simply slap SY onto the warrior's bar and then expect that player to do all the work. Some people will have a necromancer bring Blood Ritual for energy support on the backline, afterall the monks are the backbone of the party. For that same reason would you not bring the necessary tools to ensure your passive defense can function optimally?

It's something like an 85% reduction in damage, that is absurd. I would dedicate an entire character's 8 slots to ensuring that massive defense is working at all times.

If the team breaks without the SY for a few seconds, find new players.

Nexus Icon · Apr 09, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

I wasn't playing in a team where it was the main form of defense (I wasn't so stupid as to try that immediately).
Sure, when it cuts in, it's a MASSIVE bonus to damage reduction, but I'm just not prepared to turn what is usually fun for me into a 2-skill spamming chore.

And as I said previously, something about PvE skills just doesn't sit well with me. They may very well be some of the most effective skills in the game, but they were made to counter imbalanced monster skills and poorly designed high-end areas where the game's designers had run out of ideas for providing a challenge other than boosting monster levels and making players fight against unfair odds.

Cathode_Reborn · Apr 09, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

PvE skills are overpowered without a doubt, but I actually enjoy them. They're powerful, but still require some effort to use effectively. I thought they made PvE a little less dull. Even before they were out, most people could still c-space through pve. For me, it just made that c-space action a little funner.

Now Ursan/Consumables are what I don't like. Ursan as we all know is braindead button mashing. Consumables take "fire-and-forget" to a whole new level. I think It's actually almost worse than Ursan - it basically turns your team into "Hard mode".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

.....they were made to counter imbalanced monster skills and poorly designed high-end areas where the game's designers had run out of ideas for providing a challenge other than boosting monster levels and making players fight against unfair odds.

Yup, that's Guild wars pve. When the devs want to give a challenge, it's alot easier and faster to just increase numbers and damage on monsters, rather than giving them a full viable 8-skill bar with a Res, giving most mobs 1-2 good monks, and spreading them out so AoE doesn't dominate most pve. Anet gets lazy often.

Tyla · Apr 09, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I thought that PvE skills were compensation to the PvE players who got their builds nerfed?

I agree with the PvE skills messing up PvE, though.

Your build, however is quite weak. Mainly pointing at CritChop and AgChop (Not really much of a point with DChop around).
And your attributes. It's best going 13 Strength 14 Weapon Mastery, for survivability.

CChop and AChop can be replaced with Res Sig / Death Pact Signet and Conjure, Shock or whatever. Yup, I like Shock in PvE too. ;o

Nexus Icon · Apr 09, 2008, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Nothing wrong with my build whatsoever tyla.
I run Sentinel's, and the 14 strength provides a buffer so that I never lose the bonus armour, as well as hitting an adrenaline point break for enraging charge.
And you can never have too many interrupts.
D-chop is great, but it takes a while to charge, so it's nice having another in reserve.

Crit Chop is a great opener to hit the enemy with.
Hit Enraging Charge, then target your enemy with Crit Chop, and just before you hit, activate FGJ. Good first attack damage before any adrenaline has built up, then straight into Flail>D-Chop>Evis>Executioner's>Agonizing.

Res is for other team members or heroes to carry. I'm there to deal damage.
If I'm playing with PUGs, then I'll bring a res sig (usually Sunspear), but with friends and heroes, we know eachother's builds and roles.

Conjure requires too much micro and means I have to stop hitting things. Also, to be effective, it detracts from my other attributes. On top of that, it costs too much energy.
And Shock in the long term costs too much energy as well.

Regarding survivability, I find that Sentinel's makes up for more than the health gain I'd get from sticking to a tepid 13/14 build.
But I know everyone here hates Sentinel's, so I don't expect you to understand.

Crom The Pale · Apr 10, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Since you asked for my thoughts here they are

First I have run the Dslash+SY build and find it works very well in most zones, yes there are a few that have so much blocking/blind that it is worthless in.

The PvE skills were added to level the difficulty of the Elite zones so that everyone can play in them rather than just a small number of the population.

Lastly this is a game, if your having fun with your build then keep running if, if you get bored try something new. Maybe you should concider running some AB fights to raise up you rank a bit, just keep in mind that if you don't like the PvE skills you never have to use them.

Do not let others dictate how YOU play the game!

Savio · Apr 10, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Regarding survivability, I find that Sentinel's makes up for more than the health gain I'd get from sticking to a tepid 13/14 build.

You can run Sentinel's with a 13/14 attribute split too. It's not like you need that extra strike of adrenaline from Enraging Charge when you have FGJ up.

Nexus Icon · Apr 10, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Not getting my point Savio; with 13 Strength, if you get hit by weakness you lose the bonus that Sentinel's provides. 14 guarantees that I never lose that bonus.

Besides, as Crom points out, I'm here to have fun.
I find God Mode to be tedious beyond belief, and my build is fun for me.

And no matter what anybody else here says with their conformist attitudes, survivability really isn't a problem for my character.

By the way, I don't know if you'd noticed but:
With FGJ up, I get 2 more adrenaline with 14 Strength for Enraging Charge.
And Enraging charge recharges faster than FGJ, so mid-battle when FGJ inevitably drops off, I'll get that one more strike of adrenaline when a 13 build won't.
Never discount an extra strike of adrenaline.

EDIT: That 14 Strength also means that my second hit in any combat can always be Eviscerate, swiftly followed by Executioner's Strike. I get my spike off faster than a bog-standard 13 build.

Div · Apr 10, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Welcome back to grind wars, where time spent grinding > skill.

Savio · Apr 10, 2008, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Not getting my point Savio; with 13 Strength, if you get hit by weakness you lose the bonus that Sentinel's provides. 14 guarantees that I never lose that bonus.

If you have weakness on you, you get it removed, you don't wear a major rune just for that.

Quote:

Besides, as Crom points out, I'm here to have fun.
I find God Mode to be tedious beyond belief, and my build is fun for me.

Where did I say run God mode? Apparently anyone who disagrees with a non-conformist's choices is an idiot conformist ranting about running cookie cutter builds.

Quote:

With FGJ up, I get 2 more adrenaline with 14 Strength for Enraging Charge.

When your adrenaline skills require 8 adrenaline at the most, getting 10 adrenaline isn't useful. At 10+ Strength, you get 3 strikes of adrenaline from Enraging, plus 1 strike from hitting, totalling 4. Under FGJ that's 8.

Quote:

And Enraging charge recharges faster than FGJ, so mid-battle when FGJ inevitably drops off, I'll get that one more strike of adrenaline when a 13 build won't.

Or, you could time it so Enraging never goes off without being under FGJ, or else not worry about single time you don't get one strike of adrenaline.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 10, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

I like the build cause it's makin me rich from vanquishing. Just started running it last week, went down into the FoW with a buddy and I had an axe build similar to the one in the OP, but had WY!, took that out for SY! and thought, "damn, if I had D-slash I could spam this..." Then I find out I'm behind the curve again...

Doesn't seem any more tedious then the average warrior build, les so because I can get through zones easier/faster. I'm at R5, so it last 4 seconds, I can still maintain it without the problems he's describing, and do good damage and such in the meantime. The goal(and the good thing about it) isn't that you have to maintain it 100% of the time either, just most of the time, long enough for it to matter or if you see a spike coming in. At the higher level it's just invincible mode(or better yet, if you get a paragon, ranger or another war with it in the party you don't have to work as much at maintaining it).

On my warrior I have a necro team set up to support me and I don't have problems against blinds, blocking ect. It's a modified version of the sabway build, I threw some different stuff on the curse necro and MM. The Curse guy has Rigor, barbs, SS, Rejuvenation, Protective was kaolai, FoMF, enchant rending/ripping, and usually mark of pain, sig of lost souls, the hex or enchants that boost adrenaline or mend body and soul, whatever I need for he zone. The MM has hex busting abilities: Jagged, animate minions, BotM, Death nova, Reverse/convert Hex(depends how heavy the area is, vs how fast I need them busted) spirit bond, prot spirit, and a res. Then there's the N/Rt healer with recuperation, life, mend body and soul, a second protective was whats-his face, sig of lost souls ect. Between these guys conditions are of no concern, hexes get mitigated, the whole party gets healed almost automatically and constantly, there's exploding chaff from the minion spam which also fuel the backline's energy, and spiteful to take a mob down. Add in myself with FGJ, Enduring Harmony, SY! D-slash, Club of a thousand bears, steelfang slash, and whirling attack, and usually flail (unless it's a mission with no shrines, then it's a res) and I can protect the party, KD a threat or healer type(KDs are better then interrupts for warriors, if the thing can be KD'd, and most stuff can, it totally shuts something out, otherwise let rangers BHA or mesmers shut something out), bust out an AoE attack to fill the SY! while FGJ is down, and continually SY! whenever we need it. Simple, effective, beautiful. Used to be I had Watch yourself in there, just subbed out for SY! and it's shiny. Also try a Rt/N spawning bomber, works well to, just shift the antihexes to the curse necro. If there's no bodies, it's a para hero, and 2 eles or an ele and necro or ele and mes or ele and ranger. the para has ToF! and support with 1 ele being SF and the second ele(earth/water)/mes/ranger shutting stuff down

Most of my faction comes from Vanquishing occupied territories, Pongmei valley, mount quinaki are good places to hunt in HM and usually yield about 5k plus drops(or farm the yeti on quinaki for about 1000 per 10 minutes or less). Aside from that, watch the border, if it moves deep, go abing, even if you lose it's about 1.5k a round if you keep the shrines capped.

Aside from that, if you have to cowboy around in a pug and you're concerned about not being able to preform just research the area bit, if there's SV/AV, take rending touch, if there's heavy hexes, take hex breaker, holy veil, purge sig or hex eater. If it's blind, go /Rt secondary and take Sight Beyond Sight, even though it's in spawning it lasts 8 out of 15 seconds, 5 energy and 1/4 cast(great in shards of orr). I also run a W/E version of the Dslash, SY! build with a conjure, the enchant is easily, easily maintainable. You only have to stop for 1 second out of a minute and it adds about +8-13 damage that goes through armor. There are no energy concerns whatsoever. If there are, get a high set or zealous weapon while it's down and all energy problems go away. With your current atts(im assuming thats 12-12 with 3 leftover in the element) you could add a conjure and do +8 damage with each attack, and I promise you that adds up especially if the mobs are weak to any given element. If you started to rely on your monks to get rid of weakness you could do about +15(11 stength, 10 axe, and 10 in the element, should work out to 13, 13 10). If you get rid of the sentinel's insignias you could get even more flexible.

I've noticed that most of the time I'm going to die in HM, my armor isn't the issue, it's a boss or mob that can mass AoE the backline, and myself right through 20al, like Boss smiters, Rit spirit rift bosses, roaring ethers and djins(this is where SY is a great equalizer). Your AL ain't gonna save you from that, it's going to be prot enchants and party wide buffs from paragons, (TNTF!, ToF!) and rit spirits that do it. Sentinels are for farming ele damage foes.

Nexus Icon · Apr 10, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Look Savio, I'm not going to change my build. I think your suggestions are poor for my playstyle, and I'm not likely to adopt them.
I will NOT have you saying this is a poor build when it clearly isn't. It's tried and tested, and stating that there's no point using my stats because I'll die quicker is a proven false statement. I don't die quicker.
As I implied before, there is no such thing as too much adrenaline.

Also, the recharge on Enraging charge is 20 seconds. The recharge on FGJ is 45.
That means Enraging Charge will recharge in between FGJ recharges, at which point you should always activate it if you're fighting. If you don't, you're missing out on a free adrenaline boost. Not a lot of people seem to understand this.
My builds generally take advantage of this.

I think your suggestions are poor and misleading, you think the same of my builds.
You're not going to change my mind, nor me yours.

God, this is what I hate about Guru.

Savio · Apr 10, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

In case you don't get it, I RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing like Eviscerate, and I haven't said the build was bad. Disagreeing with certain aspects isn't trashing the build. Stop being a snowflake who can't take criticism.

FlamingMetroid · Apr 10, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I outright state that Nexus' war build is bad
Eviscerate in PvE lol

Dr Strangelove · Apr 10, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

I outright state that Nexus' war build is bad
Eviscerate in PvE lol

Eviscerate is fine in PvE, it's just slightly outclassed by dslash when nothing blocks. There's certainly some tweaks to be made, but it's far from a bad build.

Tyla · Apr 10, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

snip

Look, if you're not going to take criticism don't come on a forum and post your skillset. Maximising your benefits is pure /win.

Also, 10 energy being used every 60 seconds is actually cheap.
Radiant Insignias fix your Shock problem, and strategic usage is godly.
Plus if you're going for survivability (Which, I believe is the reason you're running Sentinels for going against elemental damage.) you might as well drop the -HP runes and change your insignias.

You're also using up your bar slots. I know, I know Warriors are for damage, but no Res on your bar (Unless you're with real people who know how to play.) is a big nono. As a Warrior you should also have minimal utility at least. Res Sig is that utility, as well as DChop.