Curse

king_trouble · Jul 08, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

I still feel its more apropriate for a paragon to spam it. Warriors are always not within shout range of its caster party memebers. Paragon are in the center of the battle thus their shouts affect everyone. You maybe able to spam SY in "godmode" but if you start looking at the green dots *on the rader 6/8 of them are not in your shout range. This makes it rather ineffective.

Amen to somebody who sees this

Arkantos · Jul 08, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

I still feel its more apropriate for a paragon to spam it. Warriors are always not within shout range of its caster party memebers. Paragon are in the center of the battle thus their shouts affect everyone. You maybe able to spam SY in "godmode" but if you start looking at the green dots *on the rader 6/8 of them are not in your shout range. This makes it rather ineffective.

It's much better on a paragon, yes. But there isn't always a paragon in the party. With correct positioning of your backline and your warrior, you shouldn't have any problems with getting all party members.

laksa and curry · Jul 08, 2009, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

It's much better on a paragon, yes. But there isn't always a paragon in the party. With correct positioning of your backline and your warrior, you shouldn't have any problems with getting all party members.

Good point but I would rather concentrate on unloading damage and watching the overall aggro bubble than making sure majority of the team is within shout range to spam SY.
Not a major fan of microing heros but will do it if situation calls for. Alternative way to do this is to stop attacking move into shout range of everyone and spam. Not a good thing to do IMO.

Lux Aeterna · Jul 08, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

I still feel its more apropriate for a paragon to spam it. Warriors are always not within shout range of its caster party memebers. Paragon are in the center of the battle thus their shouts affect everyone. You maybe able to spam SY in "godmode" but if you start looking at the green dots *on the rader 6/8 of them are not in your shout range. This makes it rather ineffective.

If you're out of shout range of your backline, you're overextended and will die shortly. Sometimes the MM and things very far back will be out of range, but they generally aren't taking damage...

The Godmode build is Godmode because it does this:

1) High single target dps
2) Ability to knocklock a target for ~30 seconds if needed.
3) Shout to give party members double armor, maintainable for 30 seconds or more.

Sure, paragons can do it slightly better, but warriors can do more damage at the same time + knocklock, and anyway I think I've only seen an imbagon in pve once.

Most pug warriors don't run SY because they suck, seriously I think only one out of maybe fifty warriors in pve has a decent build (this is why they don't use SY).

Cebe · Jul 08, 2009, 07:41 AM // 07:41

My suspicions are that many people will preach about how amazing the skill is, but not actually use it themselves for any number of reasons. Some may be because "it's a boring skill", for me it's more "remind me why I need PvE skills in LOLPvE?".

People will always "advise" others that the only build they play should be the "best build". For Warriors, many believe the "D-Slash Godmode" build was "the best", and so it will have been championed every time someone wanted a build. It seems like a lot of people would use it. but for various reasons, I suspect many don't.

Owik Gall · Jul 08, 2009, 08:15 AM // 08:15

All of this debate has some grounds, but my guess as to why most pug warriors didn't use SY! is the first glance, first judge. When I first looked at the skill I shunned it and kept to the idea that tanking the mob helps the team a lot and I saw a few or more posts in here that shared the same idea. However, sad truth about this idea is that the aggro system is a jerk. They take one look at the warrior with high HP and high armor and completely ignores it by running pass it to murder off the backline. Monsters do not cater to the first come first kill thing anymore. They are changed to where they now think, "Screw trying to kill that tank so the rest of them can kill us off! Let's mess them up and beat down the rest before we get back to this tanking bastard for last!" That totally rules out the option of tanking mobs, because overall you'll just be tanking one out of 12 monsters your team is dealing with. Even with that reality, some warriors still refuse to bring this skill because of high adrenaline requirement and short duration, not to forget that it won't affect the warrior using it. This is the unfortunate result of Godmode being kept underground and un-noticed to the general public. It wasn't even a meta until quite recently. If warriors got wind of Godmode earlier, we'd see a whole different effect.

By the way, yes, I'm aware that this shout is "earshot range and misses the backline." There's debate on the description of the skill saying ALL other party members gain armor. It doesn't necessarily say party members in earshot. However, I could be wrong at this and it needs testing. Volunteers with evidence of their findings are welcome. Besides, the earshot range is just a typical assumption, but again this theory needs testing.

Overall conclusion: SY! looked intimidating against the warrior because of a lot of adrenaline cost, sort duration, and no protection to the warrior using it. Additionally, Godmode has been kept under wraps for so long and its popularity hasn't grown rapidly enough to get a lot of attention, even when it's now a meta. So, at first glance the warrior will hesitate and won't take it, and probably hasn't considered about it since.

Oh, and people think paragons have better use for it than warriors, which is understandable. (They spam shouts continually like a conveyor belt.)

Lux Aeterna · Jul 08, 2009, 08:28 AM // 08:28

There is no logical reason not to bring SY on any bar that can support it.

laksa and curry · Jul 08, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

If you're out of shout range of your backline, you're overextended and will die shortly. Sometimes the MM and things very far back will be out of range, but they generally aren't taking damage...

The Godmode build is Godmode because it does this:

1) High single target dps
2) Ability to knocklock a target for ~30 seconds if needed.
3) Shout to give party members double armor, maintainable for 30 seconds or more.

Sure, paragons can do it slightly better, but warriors can do more damage at the same time + knocklock, and anyway I think I've only seen an imbagon in pve once.

Most pug warriors don't run SY because they suck, seriously I think only one out of maybe fifty warriors in pve has a decent build (this is why they don't use SY).

My concern was not about over extending but thank you for the input. If you noticed the radar on the map. Your party + mobs tend to scatter and SY is "not as effective as it seems on paper". To ensure everyone is within shout range one has to stop attacking run to a "sweet spot" spam.Whereas a paragon would be near that "sweet spot" allowing it to spam SY better.

Arkantos · Jul 08, 2009, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

There is no logical reason not to bring SY on any bar that can support it.

It's a waste of a skill slot (and a secondary profession) when you don't need to have it (which you don't always do, unless you're bad).

qvtkc · Jul 08, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

Now I ask you seriously. What would you rather do? Use that adrenaline (it costs 8 adrenaline to cast) to fire off a ton of damage against your foes, OR make sure that guy in the rear has a lot more armor for 6 seconds?

Adrenaline doesn't work as rage does, you know. It costs 8 adrenaline for that skill and 1 for every other skill. So yes you lose a bit of adren and one swing, 0.75 seconds later you are back where you were, and the rest of your party is that much safer. You can wait 0.75 seconds to "fire off a ton of damage" (or rather, an extra 40ish damage, at most), right?

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

PvE was doable before SY/TNTF imbagons were around and it'll continue to be doable after it.

Its peoples obsession with this skill that is making PvE so dumbed down. Yes its clearly a great skill, TOO great. 80%+ damage reduction which is a no-brainer to maintain on some builds is excessive. I don't want to have to run SY on every warrior bar i make, it makes things too easy if your team is even halfway competant and in general a halfway competant team shouldn't need it. I run Stand Your Ground on my ele's Para hero, its a great skill that is sadly completely overlooked because of SY. Nobody ever considers it.

Lishy · Jul 08, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Kendel, what is your opinion on serpent's quickness and scythe builds for paragons that do take it though?
Those builds are overlooked because paragons are just generally unappealing to the average player and not many know the potential of a paragon. Not because of SY. It's in the problem as Ritualists, even though spirits are amazing dps and party support now.

In fact, people use to always use WY before it was nerfed.
With SY, it makes all the enemies automatically switch to you because you have cracked armor and don't have the +100 armor so you suffer from a major spike and become a true "squishy".
Paragons are good, but are certainly not overpowered.

Warriors are the exception because they have +20 against phys dmg and very good insignias. Warriors also have Dragon Slash and can use spears just as good as a paragon, but without Cracked Armor. In fact, Warriors totally outclass a paragon!

Only a few seconds of down time when using a W/P with FGJ and enduring harmony really isn't a big dea and SY is a warrior primary skill.
You can also run earth shaker in combination with SY. Even so, Warrior has options that're viable even without SY. Earth shaker and perma Dragon Slash KD, for one.

What advantages DOES the paragon have over a warrior in SY spam? TNTF and cracked armor spread on enemies if you have a foul feast and plague transfer necromancer curses support.

_Nihilist_ · Jul 08, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I don't see others use it because:

1) I'm usually the only Warrior. If I'm not the other Warr is usually running an Earth Shaker bar
2) The only Paragon that I have ever grouped with doesn't run Imbagon (makes me /rage)
3) I rarely PUG, but when I do, I don't expect to see decent builds among the PUGs

So I always end up being the one who carries "SY!", much to my chagrin. I'd rather be using Earth Shaker to keep enemies "ass-down" than run DSlash Godmode (I've run it so much, I'm getting burned out on it), but if no one else is going to carry it, I usually will.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 08, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Solo with Hero/Hench you don't have to take it with a good setup but having it makes your life easier, I really dont understand why you shouldnt take SY! with you.

In a non-SC party theres usually an Imbagon so you dont need it.

In a SC party it's redundant because tank has all aggro and you shouldn't be taking a hit.

As for PuGs, dont judge things by PuGs.

damkel · Jul 09, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

I luuuurvvv SY and the Godmode build.

Does anyone know if shouts affect minions? if so, then having 20 minions with 100+ armour running around soaking up damage is a huge plus.

Lux Aeterna · Jul 09, 2009, 01:29 PM // 13:29

My main point in pve is to do it without really trying. I don't like pve very much, it isn't interesting to me but I have to do it to get my elite armor or whatever, so often I'll just ping my HH group into mobs and watch the bodies hit the floor the bodies hit the floor the bodies hit the floor (while possibly doing something useful like spamming SY or going for grudge matches vs. bosses, like my epic duel vs. a charr axe master while getting a free CoF run.).

I do like helping other people through it, though, but SY is necessary then because of the hardcore, huge, pathetic fail that is most PUG groups. It's a huge relief when I occasionally find somebody who has half a clue when I'm putting a party together for a mish.

Targren · Jul 09, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldawg Thanes

The skill I use all the time and wonder why more people don't use it are the Asuran Summon skills.

Because polymock is the $#!!@#! devil?

Quote:

Originally Posted by damkel

I luuuurvvv SY and the Godmode build.

Does anyone know if shouts affect minions? if so, then having 20 minions with 100+ armour running around soaking up damage is a huge plus.

They are allies, and are affected by shouts that affect allies. SY affects "Party Members" so no, not that one.

Kendel · Jul 09, 2009, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

So I always end up being the one who carries "SY!", much to my chagrin. I'd rather be using Earth Shaker to keep enemies "ass-down" than run DSlash Godmode (I've run it so much, I'm getting burned out on it), but if no one else is going to carry it, I usually will.

Maybe i'm just being naive... but why exactly can't the people you group with handle PvE without SY?

Lux Aeterna · Jul 09, 2009, 05:25 PM // 17:25

^ They sort of can, but pve'ers are usually terrible at the game and it's easier to just bring something to give them +100 armor than fail with them.

Also ES bars can semi-support SY, but I've stopped using ES much because of the large numer of times it ends up being useless for various reasons.

_Nihilist_ · Jul 09, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Maybe i'm just being naive... but why exactly can't the people you group with handle PvE without SY?

It's not that they can't handle PvE w/o "SY!", it's that they like the +100AL boost that they get. Not being able to handle without it is very different than liking the skill available.

My wife in particular runs a Superior Elemental and Major Energy Storage rune with most of her Ele Builds. She really likes "SY!", so if she asks, I'll bring it. It gets boring after the millionth time you've used DSlash > Dslash > Dslash > "SY!", but meh, I aim to please.