Curse

Winterclaw · Sep 18, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Warriors in GW are not like warriors in other games. Tanking isn't easy as in other games because you have no direct agro congrol. Warriors also do good single target damage that ignores armor. In other words, in GW warriors are DDs and should be played as such.

Saraneth · Sep 18, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrayal

If warriors can do more damage then elementalists then would you rather have 4 warriors in a team than 1 tank and 3 nukers?

Yes, and I have run teams with 3-4 wars on several occassions with my guildies... T&S is a degenerate play style, and if anything needs reworking, it's tactics.

IrishX · Sep 18, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrayal

If warriors can do more damage then elementalists then would you rather have 4 warriors in a team than 1 tank and 3 nukers?

They do, and I would, assuming the people playing the warriors aren't retarded. Warriors have the highest sustained DPS in the game.

BlackSephir · Sep 18, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrayal

tanknspank

You're doing pve wrong.
Which is... shocking.

**Marty Silverblade** · Sep 19, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

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Originally Posted by betrayal

He stated at the beginning, in PVE. What do they call warrior in game again? Oh yeah TANK.

Tank is a label that has carried on from other games. It means nothing.

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If you wanna blow shiet up, go make an elementalist, that's why they're called nukers.

Since you obviously have very little experience with the game, I advise you to not be so harsh, since it makes you look like an idiot when you're wrong. Stuff has so much armor in HM that nuking isn't really efficient. Also, Warriors can do 150+ damage every 0.866 seconds if set up properly, and can maintain that indefinately. Nothing matches the Warrior for single target damage.

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Defy Pain is under strength attribute so why is it a waste of attribute points? You would suggest no points in strength then?

I was referring to Tactics with the attribute points comment, and Defy Pain with the skill slot comment. Is it that hard to figure out or are do you just like to be hostile?

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And don't be saying warrior is meant to do damage just because it can farm raptors fastest. We're talking about the game in general

So am I. PS: Practically all professions with the exception of Paragons can farm better than Warriors. The HB/MoP concept doesn't just apply to Raptors either, as you imply.

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Obviously you don't have an elementalist or not very good at playing one.

Evidence? Dismissing this as another meaning argument.

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Mark of Pain is not warrior skill btw

You're saying we shouldn't talk about soloing (which we aren't), yet you seem to forget the fact you have up to 7 other party members that can bring it for you. Practically every PvE group will benefit from a Necromancer, so arguing that MoP isn't a Warrior skill is redundant.

Quote:

If warriors can do more damage then elementalists then would you rather have 4 warriors in a team than 1 tank and 3 nukers?

In some cases, yes. A properly constructed physical based TEAM build will destroy things much faster than tank and spank will. Possible exception may apply if using stupid gimmick skills like SF.

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I don't want this thread to become which class is better.

This isn't what we're saying. It's just your closed minded profession labeling that we have issues with.

Terek Zelta · Sep 19, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Warriors in GW are not like warriors in other games. Tanking isn't easy as in other games because you have no direct agro congrol. Warriors also do good single target damage that ignores armor. In other words, in GW warriors are DDs and should be played as such.

This~, and what Marty said.

Tactics is useless for serious play, no matter how much I hate to admit that. There are a couple skills in it that I like - "Shield's Up!," Protector's Defense, Auspicious Parry with Riposte - but these are still utterly outshined by other, more useful skills. I'd use the aforementioned skills for fun, just messing around, but nothing serious. Even a skill like Healing Signet is good, but it belongs in running or Pre-Searing builds only.

That said, I like to experiment, especially with the more obscure skills and builds (like Tactics), and Defy Pain is... still not that good. Anything I can do with Defy Pain, I can do better with a decent protection monk and offensive elite. Anything I can do with Tactics, I can do better with Strength (Flail/Rush/Enraging Charge), some attack skills, SY and For Great Justice.

Warriors have insane damage output. This is the strength most experienced warriors play to. Their ability to tank is mediocre at best, because of an aggro mechanic that pretty much removes tanks from the game. Not to mention other classes do it better 90% of the time.

Take FGJ, Flail and Dragon Slash to a mission, quest, dungeon, whatever, and watch how easily you 123 an enemy out of existence. If you don't like Dragon Slash, take another offensive elite of your choice, they all can do really high damage when used properly.

draxynnic · Sep 19, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

On the whole, the Warrior is fairly well balanced. Tactics could do with a helping hand, but in my mental list the Warrior is a fair way down beneath more broken builds or entire underpowered professions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The adrenaline system was the best idea Anet ever had. This idea was so good that the entire rest of the game should be balanced around it and nothing else.

This is my honest opinion.

Isn't that basically what Fury did? Not exactly the same, but a similar mechanic of building up power through weak attacks to discharge through strong ones...

Jeydra · Sep 19, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Vote overpowered.

Huge DPS, high armor and Save Yourselves, what's not overpowered about Warriors?

Terek Zelta · Sep 19, 2009, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Vote overpowered.

Huge DPS, high armor and Save Yourselves, what's not overpowered about Warriors?

The fact that if your monk fails to prot you, you die. Warriors are hugely dependent on their backline, and it doesn't matter how good you are or how strong the class is, if you're running with a group that you don't play well with, you're going to go down, and hard.

If that ranger doesn't get that interrupt in, guess who gets slammed with a 200 damage hit? Chances are, it'll be the warrior.

Basically, it's been said before, and needs to be said again: Warriors are potentially extremely powerful, but in practice, only as powerful as the team they run with.

Tenebrae · Sep 19, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

Also, Warriors can do 150+ damage every 0.866 seconds if set up properly, and can maintain that indefinately. Nothing matches the Warrior for single target damage.

Almost true but it isnt , check DPS thread, Sin says Hi ! . Not to mention that "indefinately" you mention doesnt sound so true. Feel free to give builds for not letting those words being just that

.

Warriors in fact , are imba , a whole att line is totally nerfed : Tactics. Anet nerfed tacts and buffed str so much , if someday the tables turn , there are so many ppl that is going to get pissed.

Bobby2 · Sep 19, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Strength as a primary isn't particularly useful. Access to powerful skills, yes, but compared to SR or Exp the inherent benefit is pretty minimal. It's just that Tactics is crammed with stuff a Warrior doesn't need - it gets more use from secondary Warriors, and I don't believe they are lacking.

Desert Rose · Sep 19, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrayal

If warriors can do more damage then elementalists then would you rather have 4 warriors in a team than 1 tank and 3 nukers?

Tank'n'Spank is very common because of 2 reasons:
1. Tank'n'Spank is very easy to pull off; I've never unterstood how you can fail with such a build unless one partymember deliberately screws it up.
2. In a few areas Tank'n'Spank can be way faster than any other teambuild.

But Tank'n'Spank is not reasonable in many PvE-areas, and in those areas a melee can deal far more damage than any caster.

Perfected Shadow · Sep 19, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

The fact that if your monk fails to prot you, you die. Warriors are hugely dependent on their backline, and it doesn't matter how good you are or how strong the class is, if you're running with a group that you don't play well with, you're going to go down, and hard.

If that ranger doesn't get that interrupt in, guess who gets slammed with a 200 damage hit? Chances are, it'll be the warrior.

Basically, it's been said before, and needs to be said again: Warriors are potentially extremely powerful, but in practice, only as powerful as the team they run with.

What you're saying pretty much applies to any class...

The advantage of warriors is the much higher AL and the better damage that physicals have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrayal

If warriors can do more damage then elementalists then would you rather have 4 warriors in a team than 1 tank and 3 nukers?

4 warriors, one or two with SY will turn the whole party into tanks. And they're capable of destroying most HM mobs much faster.

Terek Zelta · Sep 19, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

What you're saying pretty much applies to any class...

The advantage of warriors is the much higher AL and the better damage that physicals have.

I knew someone was going to say that.

It applies to warriors more so than other classes. Warriors are not as self-sufficient as other classes. This is a big part of their balance. They're easy to shut down, and they rely heavily on their backline. If I'm blinded, I'm useless, and my bar is already way too cramped to bring any real condition removal. If I'm being crippled a lot, I can either bring IAU or another condition removal and lose an integral skill (I need all 8 slots), or I can rely on my backline to do their job well. If they don't pay attention to me or are otherwise busy, and I'm limping around the battlefield, I'm again useless, with 0 DPS. This goes for blocking too. As a warrior, I have no real enchantment removal. I need to rely on my friend who runs an unblockable Shattering Assault chain, or my backline enchantment removal so I can do my job, because I'm sure as heck not bringing Warrior's Cunning.

Whereas my ranger has Antidote Signet. His bar isn't cramped, I can afford to do it. Not only that, with a blocking stance, naturally high armor against elemental damage, things like Throw Dirt, I'm ridiculously self-sufficient on the battlefield. Same goes for my elementalist - I can survive really well and I can do my job without too much support. Since I'm also backline, I'm free to kite whatever is attacking me. And my sin has Shadow Fang, 75% blocking for most of the fight, and easy stance and enchant removal all on his own; the only thing I need to be concerned with is staying alive when things get dicey. My warrior has a harder time, being the first one to run into battle and therefore the first one to get all the hexes, the cripple, etc. Then we have SY. If I'm using SY to relieve pressure, the enemies start gunning for me. Without good support, I can die surprisingly fast.

My take on it is this: warriors are very straight forward. Their straight forward approach leaves them vulnerable in a lot of areas, and the AI exploits this pretty often, and our only defense is good support. In a few cases, the only way we can get decent offense at all is through good backline support.

I think this makes them one of the most balanced classes in the entire game.

Ccat · Sep 19, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Almost true but it isnt , check DPS thread, Sin says Hi ! . Not to mention that "indefinately" you mention doesnt sound so true. Feel free to give builds for not letting those words being just that

.

Warriors in fact , are imba , a whole att line is totally nerfed : Tactics. Anet nerfed tacts and buffed str so much , if someday the tables turn , there are so many ppl that is going to get pissed.

It's not that Tactics was nerfed, it's purpose is just different. It's purpose mostly revolves around defense, thusly, skills you will/should never ever use. Admitted, it does have skills that are just plain rubbish. I'm not sure about PvP, but a PvE players mentality is to cram as much effectiveness as possible into one bar, so the skills that are seen in Warriors doing 10 second IAS's with 30 second recharges will never be used when there is Flail about. If Defensive Stance was to be buffed to a perpetual skill, Tactics would probably be somewhat used.

Tactics just needs one perk to be useful again. Hell, if 'Fear Me!' was brought down to a 2 second recharge I'd be running full warrior heroes in a heartbeat. But, it seems to me Tactics has been abandoned altogether by ANet because of skills like 'Watch Yourselves!' being pathetically weak while there is 'Save Yourselves!'. I guess I should be glad not having to sub into another attribute, although it seems to me ANet like their Warriors just a little too much. I suppose it's needed to have a trademark class like it's needed to have a trademark character, one that can never be bad.

If you remove the skills aspect from the picture, Warriors are the most balanced class in the game, because they only have one definite role - a heavy armored unit that deals huge damage - While other melee's have lots of condition removal and healing integrated into their professions.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 19, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

The only thing that is overpowered about warriors is Godmode

and the only thing underpowered is Tactics in general.

However I don't think the are THE most balanced class. I think that award goes to Ritualists, IMO. Nothing they do is particularly overpowered, and their skills allow them to fill almost any role, be it healer, prot, support, melee DPS, ranged DPS (SS with a scythe/spear if you really want to), Spirit Spamming, defensive spirits, MM... They also have decent damage spells like Spirit Rift for direct offensive spells

Jeydra · Sep 20, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I knew someone was going to say that.

It applies to warriors more so than other classes. Warriors are not as self-sufficient as other classes. This is a big part of their balance. They're easy to shut down, and they rely heavily on their backline. If I'm blinded, I'm useless, and my bar is already way too cramped to bring any real condition removal. If I'm being crippled a lot, I can either bring IAU or another condition removal and lose an integral skill (I need all 8 slots), or I can rely on my backline to do their job well. If they don't pay attention to me or are otherwise busy, and I'm limping around the battlefield, I'm again useless, with 0 DPS. This goes for blocking too. As a warrior, I have no real enchantment removal. I need to rely on my friend who runs an unblockable Shattering Assault chain, or my backline enchantment removal so I can do my job, because I'm sure as heck not bringing Warrior's Cunning.

Whereas my ranger has Antidote Signet. His bar isn't cramped, I can afford to do it. Not only that, with a blocking stance, naturally high armor against elemental damage, things like Throw Dirt, I'm ridiculously self-sufficient on the battlefield. Same goes for my elementalist - I can survive really well and I can do my job without too much support. Since I'm also backline, I'm free to kite whatever is attacking me. And my sin has Shadow Fang, 75% blocking for most of the fight, and easy stance and enchant removal all on his own; the only thing I need to be concerned with is staying alive when things get dicey. My warrior has a harder time, being the first one to run into battle and therefore the first one to get all the hexes, the cripple, etc. Then we have SY. If I'm using SY to relieve pressure, the enemies start gunning for me. Without good support, I can die surprisingly fast.

My take on it is this: warriors are very straight forward. Their straight forward approach leaves them vulnerable in a lot of areas, and the AI exploits this pretty often, and our only defense is good support. In a few cases, the only way we can get decent offense at all is through good backline support.

I think this makes them one of the most balanced classes in the entire game.

It doesn't matter. Properly supported Warriors deal more damage than anyone else. 3 Warriors + appropriate support > 5 whatever else with self-heals, self-condition removal, etc. Maybe you need backup from your teammates but once you get that backup you are unstoppable - and much stronger than everyone else except possibly Assassins. It's not your job to bring heals and such when you are so good at dealing damage, and you have Save Yourselves to clean up the team as well. If you're still dying, maybe you should look at your Monks instead.

PS: if you REALLY want self cleanup / enchantment removal etc you certainly have access to them - use your secondary.

draxynnic · Sep 20, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

However I don't think the are THE most balanced class. I think that award goes to Ritualists, IMO. Nothing they do is particularly overpowered, and their skills allow them to fill almost any role, be it healer, prot, support, melee DPS, ranged DPS (SS with a scythe/spear if you really want to), Spirit Spamming, defensive spirits, MM... They also have decent damage spells like Spirit Rift for direct offensive spells

That's not saying they're balanced, just that they're versatile.

I'm inclined to think that Ritualists are now possibly a little overpowered, but not enough to be worth worrying too much about.

qvtkc · Sep 21, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Warriors are supremely well balanced. Tactics is a bit underpowered (because of secondary warriors), everything else is 100% good in PvE and PvP alike.

Terek Zelta · Sep 21, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It doesn't matter. Properly supported Warriors deal more damage than anyone else. 3 Warriors + appropriate support > 5 whatever else with self-heals, self-condition removal, etc. Maybe you need backup from your teammates but once you get that backup you are unstoppable - and much stronger than everyone else except possibly Assassins. It's not your job to bring heals and such when you are so good at dealing damage, and you have Save Yourselves to clean up the team as well. If you're still dying, maybe you should look at your Monks instead.

PS: if you REALLY want self cleanup / enchantment removal etc you certainly have access to them - use your secondary.

This is exactly my point.

You and I look at it differently, but we're saying the exact same thing, so we can agree to disagree here.

Edit: There's also something else I want to add here, and that is: Warrior's can't sustain their damage output. Our high numbers come primarily from FGJ. If we're relying on FGJ, we almost always need Enduring Harmony, which pigeon-holes us into a paragon secondary, and takes up four of our slots right there - Flail (or Frenzy for you daredevils; god bless), Enraging Charge/Rush, Enduring Harmony, For Great Justice. We have trouble even fitting a resurrection skill into our bars.

So our secondary is almost always chosen for us when running metas, which is one of the only ways we get into groups. I'm lucky, I'm with a guild that lets me run anything I want, but even then, Dragon Slash and Hundred Blades are usually optimal, and both of them have pretty much the same template: Elite attack, two attack skills, SY, Flail, Rush/Enraging Charge, Enduring Harmony, For Great Justice.

So if you forgo Enduring Harmony, you have a 25 second downtime on FGJ that's a real hassle, and you can find yourself contributing very little by comparison until it's recharged. Even during the 15 seconds of downtime, if you don't time your FGJ right, you'll be running into battle autoattacking for some time until your stuff recharges. It's taken me a good deal of practice to get it down.

Good warriors will remedy this with Whirlwind Attack, Cyclone Axe, Steelfang Slash, et al. but these skills, although potentially amazing adrenaline management, are not always consistent and have their own drawbacks as a result.

If you forgo your cancel stance, although I notice some warriors do this, you have to pray you won't be doing a lot of running. I would never play without some kind of cancel for Flail just to have condition/hex removal that my monk should know to take care of, but many surprisingly don't. I don't always blame them - sometimes there is a metric ton of conditions flying around and two monks can't always take care of that themselves, leaving me in a pretty bad spot. It's why IAU does replace Enduring Harmony for me sometimes, in the less harder areas, but I still have to bring EH to the harder places.

When we don't use FGJ, our DPS is still good, but in no way unbalanced. Without FGJ, a good sin can easily out-damage me. But even though a sin will blow stuff up faster, he himself blows up faster.

That's the one and only problem I've ever really had with warriors: Adrenaline management. FGJ is to warriors as energy storage is to elementalists in that it's not always real adrenaline management. Sometimes it's too much adrenaline over too short a period of time.

So that's it, really. Not as self-sufficient, much more prone to hexes/conditions that can potentially break us, and FGJ, which in itself, can be its own drawback.

Edit #2: Typos.