Curse

AtomicMew · Dec 21, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

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superraptors

Bonus points for being brave, but I'm looking for PvE builds. You do bring up a good point of frenzy; I said earlier that drunken master should be stapled to a battle mage's bar. I was wrong, frenzy is a solid choice if you want another PvE skill.

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Originally Posted by Steps Descending

Out of curiosity, when did traversc (OP) said he wanted to see amazing builds? Does strong mean "competitive in a min/maxed environnement"? Is the point of that thread to look for optimal, competitive, Overpowered builds to change the meta? ANd on a side note, if most of the +damage and HB are AL ignoring, does the strenght really makes a difference?

Not sure what you're asking. There's only two meta heroways I recognize, and that is sab and discordway. That won't be changed anytime soon for reasons which are irrelevant to this discusssion. The purpose is to optimize given the constraint of limited skill slots (e.g., hero/hench). Being locked into into a profession due to titles is another constraint (which is the reason I initially looked into these types of builds), but as I said earlier, these builds more than hold their own compared to classic warriors. There are a lot of build combinations that have potential. But they wont be looked into, because the game is dying and no one really cares. Still, it's ironic how close minded most people in this thread are given how limited in tactics they've shown themselves to be. These people are the same type of "experts" on PvX that are surprised that every dungeon is easily H/H-able, and has been for a very long time.

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An N/W will be lightyears behind a dedicated Cursor because they can't bring Assassin's Promise.

You shouldn't need more than one copy of MoP per fight anyway. Against a decent sized mob, an HB can proc better than your entire party you'd take as hero/hench with an N/A and an N/A can't take SY!.

Purus Sapientia · Dec 21, 2009, 05:24 AM // 05:24

The only battlemage build anyone will ever need:

Me/W

Illusionary Weaponry
Frenzy

Huzzah!

cellardweller · Dec 21, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You shouldn't need more than one copy of MoP per fight anyway. Against a decent sized mob, an HB can proc better than your entire party you'd take as hero/hench with an N/A and an N/A can't take SY!.

A single mop+splinter will destroy a group in a 1-3 secs, AP allows you to engage the next group immediately instead of standing around for 10s waiting for the recharge. N/A is a hero's job, melee should always be human controlled.

AtomicMew · Dec 21, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

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Originally Posted by cellardweller

N/A is a hero's job

Stop right there. No it is not. Please stop acting like you are an expert. If you need more AoE effect in your H/H team, you take multiple copies of splinter, which takes less bar space and is probably better half the time anyway. Not some half-baked Ap-MoP nuker hero that needs to be micro'ed 24/7. Any competent player should know that.

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A single mop+splinter will destroy a group in a 1-3 secs

You kill a mob in 1 second...? Yeah... ok, You are basically just trolling now.

cellardweller · Dec 21, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Stop right there. No it is not. Please stop acting like you are an expert. If you need more AoE effect in your H/H team, you take multiple copies of splinter, which takes less bar space and is probably better half the time anyway. Not some half-baked Ap-MoP nuker hero that needs to be micro'ed 24/7. Any competent player should know that.

You kill a mob in 1 second...? Yeah... ok, You are basically just trolling now.

Splinter does a fixed amount of damage that doesn't stack with itself. The damage from MoP multiplied by every adacent thanks to HB + triggers from spinters. The only enemies groups that can survive a single HB/Splinter/Mop/Whirlwind combo are the ones in wide open areas like dalada uplands and thats only because there aren't walls to create killzones against.

Of course it has to be micro'd, but its a hell of a lot easier than trying to micro a melee hero into creating bodyblocks so MoP/splinter do some damage.

Daenara · Dec 22, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Play nice kiddies, or don't play at all.

AtomicMew · Dec 22, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daenara

Play nice kiddies, or don't play at all.

Thank you and sorry. I'd like to sum up the argument sans all the flame-festing for future reference and to prevent people from making claims with no proof.

Me: N/W is a good combination because it compresses the essentials of 2 bars into one. I have tested it and it is capable of X.

Cellard: [HB + N/A hero] is better than [N/W + any hero].

Cellard's claim is not completely outrageous, and so I asked proof that HB + N/A is capable of better than X.

No response.

I'd like everyone to think first before responding and immediately dismissing an idea. If you think the build is subpar, but are not capable of X within the constraints (e.g. H/H with a classic warrior or caster necro) than et sequitur you cannot claim that the build is subpar.

I'm going to start a new thread, as I have a few more builds I'd like to post.

Steps_Descending · Dec 22, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Not sure what you're asking. There's only two meta heroways I recognize, and that is sab and discordway. That won't be changed anytime soon for reasons which are irrelevant to this discusssion. The purpose is to optimize given the constraint of limited skill slots (e.g., hero/hench). Being locked into into a profession due to titles is another constraint (which is the reason I initially looked into these types of builds), but as I said earlier, these builds more than hold their own compared to classic warriors. There are a lot of build combinations that have potential. But they wont be looked into, because the game is dying and no one really cares. Still, it's ironic how close minded most people in this thread are given how limited in tactics they've shown themselves to be. These people are the same type of "experts" on PvX that are surprised that every dungeon is easily H/H-able, and has been for a very long time.

I'll admit that wasn't exactly clear.
Split in two parts:
COnsidering most of the damage is al-ignoring, shouldn't that smooth the difference between warrior and non-warrior
Second concerns you traversc, are you looking for a battlemage that could overthrow the current group meta? H/H meta? Or just a fun but effecient build? Or just fun builds who don't need to be actually good for high-end task (basically that will be carried by the AIs)?

Bloody Dominator · Dec 23, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

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Originally Posted by trcvrs

I'm going to start a new thread, as I have a few more builds I'd like to post.

O yes pls do. I liked the idea of this build and i'm defenitly going to try it on my necro when i cap HB

(no matter how bad it may be)
So more unusual builds pls

cellardweller · Dec 23, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Me: N/W is a good combination because it compresses the essentials of 2 bars into one. I have tested it and it is capable of X.

Cellard: [HB + N/A hero] is better than [N/W + any hero].

Cellard's claim is not completely outrageous, and so I asked proof that HB + N/A is capable of better than X.

No response.

Assuming:
->the enemy average group size is 6 and you pull 2 a time for a total of 12 adacent enemies
->Armour are are all non-factors thanks to PS/SB/SoA/SV/AV etc
->The melee, whether N/W or W/X will have 6A from incomming hits by the time that they've executed the bodyblock
->They are playing in HM so the ranged kiting AI is in effect which allows you to quickly pull them into melee range.

When a splinter buffed W/X
Whirlwind 20
38*11 MoP 528
47*1.25 Splinter Weapon 59 (on average)
38*1.25 MoP from splinter 48 (on average)
11*15ish HB 165
20ish weapon damage 20
The damage done for a N/X will be slightly lower due to a lack of strength and a lower swordsmanship, but neither is enough to make a difference between wiping a the enemy and not wiping them.

The difference comes in because of 2 factors
1) The N/A hero can cast MoP and AP while the W/X is pulling the ranged into ajacent. The N/X cannot cast MoP until the bodyblock is complete because he has to keep moving so he will always be at least 2 seconds behind
2) The N/X is the focus of all attacks and is vulnerable to knockdowns/interrupts while casting
3) The W/X can now go on and repeat the same thing on the next group while HB is active, but N/X has to wait for MoP to recharge so the remaining time on HB is wasted.
Net result is that the W/X will be progressing around twice as fast.

The reason that putting MoP on a N/W will be a subpar is that right now the singular fastest way to AoE kill is via the MoP+HB+Whirlwind combo. In order to make this combo better, you need add elements that increase the efficency of it (eg adding AP to the MoP, adding splinter to cause extra MoP triggers, sprint skills to allow for faster pulls). By combining the two roles onto a single bar, you've decreased its efficiency instead.

If your main is a Necro and you want to play around with melee go ahead the game is forgiving enough for you to get away with pretty much anything, but you'll never be able to clear as fast as a team that is dedicated to suporting the MoP/HB combo as much as possible.

AtomicMew · Dec 23, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

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Originally Posted by Cellardweller

If your main is a Necro and you want to play around with melee go ahead the game is forgiving enough for you to get away with pretty much anything, but you'll never be able to clear as fast as a team that is dedicated to suporting the MoP/HB combo as much as possible.

Again, I've asked you to prove that. Show me that you are capable of performing X with your H/H setup. (X=clearing vloxen level 2 in <25 minutes). If you are not capable of X, then you cannot call a build, which is capable of X, subpar to yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Assuming:
->the enemy average group size is 6 and you pull 2 a time for a total of 12 adacent enemies

I would give you major props if posted a video of this in an area such as vloxen or SoO. Otherwise, you are just theorycrafting. The rest of your post is non-sequitur.

Hugh Manatee · Dec 24, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

You still haven't put up the rest of your team, given proof that your n/w can do what you say it does, and where it's doing what it's doing(I strongly dount you're doing what you claim to be doing in HM, every dwarf mob in HM has a butt ton of interrupting, enchant draining, KD and anti melee power, all focused on a squishie in the front, plus their ressing... and if it's normal, who cares... ).

Also, a build that can reapply MoP faster then yours while pumping out physical damage(which a W/x paired N/A or N/E or even a N/whatever with a 40/40 curse set can do) is inherently more capable then yours. Pics not required, do math.

EDIT: Also, I just remembered one of my stupid RA Mo/W gimicks. Back when factions came out and they cloned Holy Strike I used to have a little fun with Backbreaker on a smitng monk primary. IIRC you could hit BB, then crushing, then hit with both holy and stonesoul strike before they got up off the ground. I remember wanding stuff for adrenaline, pushing redbars with light healing, then when a war or something got close I'd BB it and laugh since it was in frenzy getting fried by holy damage...

AtomicMew · Dec 24, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

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Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

You still haven't put up the rest of your team, given proof that your n/w can do what you say it does, and where it's doing what it's doing(I strongly dount you're doing what you claim to be doing in HM, every dwarf mob in HM has a butt ton of interrupting, enchant draining, KD and anti melee power, all focused on a squishie in the front, plus their ressing... and if it's normal, who cares... ).

Let the flame-fest re-ignite, eh? NPAs are definitely ftw.

I haven't not posted screenies because I'm lying, but simply because no one has requested them. I'm more than willing go through vloxen again to get some, but what's the point? I mean, would you concede the argument? You mantra "screen shots not required," yet here you are requesting them and expect me to believe you don't have a completely absurd double standard? Should we just trust you, trust all your claims, and throw all objectivity out the window at the same time?

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Also, a build that can reapply MoP faster then yours while pumping out physical damage(which a W/x paired N/A or N/E or even a N/whatever with a 40/40 curse set can do)

2v1 is not a fair comparison. Also, N/A is a red herring. 1-3 second mob kill is a lie.

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is inherently more capable then yours. Pics not required, do math.

Pics ARE required since math is difficult, apparently. Here's a hint: what's the difference between an N/W with a 40/40 pumping MoP and a N/nothing with a 40/40 pumping MoP?

_Nihilist_ · Dec 24, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

trcvrs, it's not that the N/W variant you are discussing won't work, it's that it won't work as quickly as having a W/x running Hundred Blades + Whirlwind and having a N/A AP + MoP.

I know that you are talking about bar compression, and even moreso, team compression. Yes, that's important, and your ideas expand upon that very well.

If you want to explain it, you're going to have to give people a team setup, not just tell them that it opens up a slot on your team. Why? Because until you give the concrete details/possibilities, people are just going to dismiss your theories/ideas. And considering that, you'll probably want to post it in the Heroes section or just in the Campfire Forum itself, not here in the Warrior sub.

All of that being said, GW is a game. If you want to run your Necromancer as a Hundred Blades + Whirlwind, go for it. As long as it's enjoyable for you, it shouldn't matter whether you get flames here or really what anyone thinks.

Thank you for sharing your opinions, hopefully, whether members here agree with them or not, your willingness to step up and present the idea will bring about something positive for the people that read this Thread.

Have a Wonderful Wintersday!

Winterclaw · Dec 24, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

trcvrs, the first problem I at least am having with your build is that group PvE is a team thing and without showing which heroes you use and their skill set is going to make a large difference in how well things are going. The other problem I have is that generalizing/overcompression isn't going to work as well has everyone excelling at a single role and working together. If you are running a hero build that works well and doesn't wipe in general then that lessens your claims than if you were running whatever.

Since you've made the claim that N/W is superior to a HB warrior and a second necro it is your burden to prove that claim.

AtomicMew · Dec 24, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

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Originally Posted by Winterclaw

trcvrs, the first problem I at least am having with your build is that group PvE is a team thing and without showing which heroes you use and their skill set is going to make a large difference in how well things are going. The other problem I have is that generalizing/overcompression isn't going to work as well has everyone excelling at a single role and working together. If you are running a hero build that works well and doesn't wipe in general then that lessens your claims than if you were running whatever.

The builds are flexible and general enough that they don't have to be run with a particular setup. Most hero-ways don't even take MoP anymore. (With the exception of HB, splinter is just as good and far more reliable.)

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Since you've made the claim that N/W is superior to a HB warrior and a second necro it is your burden to prove that claim.

Yes, you are right. The burden of proof is on those that lay the charges. But don't misunderstand, saying "HB + N/A is better" or "N/W is a completely inferior build" are both positive charges that also do need to be proved.

That's why I suggested screenshots, because theorycraft land is bigger than guild wars, and the math is nowhere NEAR as simple as people think.

Bloody Dominator · Jan 02, 2010, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I got a question with the first build: would u use a shield for extra armor or a focus with a 20% decrease to cast time? Both seem usefull to me, what do you suggest?

maxxfury · Jan 02, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

In a H&H situation no one cares!

Its fun to do this odd shit!

If your are the only player then SY will do a lot more for your party than a lot of stuff you could bring to a h&h team.Depending on class, IF you even care.

In a full human party, there are better things to do as a REAL phys should cover this.

In an optimized party, lol.

Although saying these can clear a dungeon is the same as saying an empty bar can do it...we all know a team with a slacker can do almost anywhere. That cant really be used as a measure of quality.

*edit sidenote: an AP/mop nuker hero isnt actually that bad in all honesty, with a little micro here and there, so long as you mod the bar a little from what a player would run.

AtomicMew · Jan 02, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

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Originally Posted by maxxfury

In a H&H situation no one cares!

I beg to differ. H/H presents the most challenge the game has to offer. With a full team, or even with 2-man, you can roll through every area without even using your brain.

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Although saying these can clear a dungeon is the same as saying an empty bar can do it...we all know a team with a slacker can do almost anywhere. That cant really be used as a measure of quality.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If you're talking about a full 8 man party, then of course, but that's sorely missing the point.

There's no way you can take an empty bar, or even a bar with bad skills on it, and expect to clear much of HM with H/H. Thus, clearing a dungeon IS a measure or quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloody Dominator

I got a question with the first build: would u use a shield for extra armor or a focus with a 20% decrease to cast time? Both seem usefull to me, what do you suggest?

The best option would be to weapon switch. If you press {esc} (suppress action) there is no delay for switching. Of course, I'm lazy so I just take a 20/20 focus.

maxxfury · Jan 02, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I meant if your H&H its your game alone, hence no one cares but you, run what ever you want.

HENCHING is more of a challenge than H&H.

Rolling thru with 4 hench and 3 heroes isnt difficult in most places doing nothing all at your self. I think i did all but a few full of vanqs in each continent with a bar of skills but using nothing but calling targets as tv was more interesting at the time xD