Curse

AtomicMew · Dec 18, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Basically, battlemages = X/W, (X=caster). Two skills are fixed to any battlemage bar, and that is SY! and drunken master. Spirit Strength is an obvious choice, but I think actually it's possible to do better.

HB
Whirlwind Attack
Sun and Moon Slash
MoP
Barbs
Riger Mortis
SY!
Drunken Master
11 Sword, 12+3+1 cruses, 6+1 SR.

Took this guy through vloxen and yesterday's zbounty (Bogroots). Amazing loltastic AoE.

Signet of Spirits
Painful Bond
Splinter Weapon
Cyclone Axe
Optional
Optional
SY!
Drunken Master

Theorycraft - combine with a communing hero to do big damage. Splinter + cyclone is obviously the heart of the build, which also frees up slots and attributes on your heroes that would otherwise take splinter, anyway. Also, you have the option of taking Sight beyond sight, which would be required in places like SoO (most other physicals would be useless there).

Post your strong battlemage builds

Uriel_Wolfblood · Dec 18, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I love seeing people come up with new ideas. My only concern is armor. What do you use exactly to keep yourself alive with this build? SY is great but affects other allies, a shield would help, or are you just gambling on killing everything before they have a chance to hit you? If thats the case then I think this would be really fun in NM but in HM I don't think it would hold up. Especially since you need the casters to be CASTERS.

But all in all its good to see some creativity. I made a Spirits Strenght build for one of my guildies awhile back and he loves it just fine.

Keep on coming up with new ideas mate, even if they don't work, at least you are trying.

majikmajikmajik · Dec 18, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

viable builds have basicly been determined by now, i say just play whatever you want!!

Gennadios · Dec 19, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Those bounties were done in HM or NM?

Gift3d · Dec 19, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uriel_Wolfblood

new

lol?

it's been done a million times before, you just don't hear about it. the reason for that being is it's a bad idea.

just as you think a warrior might look cool playing nuker, or a necro might look cool playing frontline, it's nowhere near as effective as playing the class the way it's meant to be played.

anyways the only builds that come to mind are e/w sword conjure with some pbaoe, and n/d with wearying strike dark aura contagion. i'm sure they're on wiki in the 'bad builds' section.

Steps_Descending · Dec 19, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

I have doubts concerning the Splinter. Last time I used it, the 3 target and the fact that you burn through all your charges on the first AoE. Then again I used in for mass farming, so if you aren't 1v7 it's probably much more impressive. That and armor... Interesting, I'll try it.

The first build looks fun, but what's HB?

And on my part, it's poor but I like to bring some defensive stances on casters when I can. Most of the time, it turns around Delfect Arrow, SHeilds Up, even Soldier's Defense if I'm confident I'll have a shout on me. I've also brought Balance Stance a couple of time.

Winterclaw · Dec 19, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

You might be able to get away with an E/W running some kind of HB (hundred blades) as long as you use earth or water to up your AL. It's still going to be subpar to a warrior running HB. If you aren't farming you could run a 600/w, but you won't be doing much damage.

Warriors work pretty well as DDs because they have enough AL to be mostly ignored by the AI which frees up their skill bar for more attacks or utility. Plus they can put 14 points into a weapon.

One other thing, putting SY on a low armor caster is going to make you mob bait.

AtomicMew · Dec 19, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

You might be able to get away with an E/W running some kind of HB (hundred blades) as long as you use earth or water to up your AL. It's still going to be subpar to a warrior running HB.

No.

Armor is completely overrated. Instead, smart usage of prots can completely negate the downsides. Even just maintaining PS is usually enough for your monks to take care of the rest.

Both of the builds I posted do far more damage than their warrior counterparts. The necro, for example: two fewer points in weapon mastery hardly makes a difference at all. On the other hand, 16 in curses makes an absolutely massive difference in AoE output (compared to the 10 you would be putting on a warrior).

Of course, you could put 16 curses on a hero, but then you need to realize that's a huge opportunity cost. There are always lots of amazing things you could do given more space on heroes. Even taking another copy of splinter weapon, for example, should be obvious enough to end any argument about damage output. Necro wins hands down.

Quote:

Warriors work pretty well as DDs because they have enough AL to be mostly ignored by the AI which frees up their skill bar for more attacks or utility. Plus they can put 14 points into a weapon.

One other thing, putting SY on a low armor caster is going to make you mob bait.

You've got it completely backwards. If low armor makes you "mob bait" that's a good thing, because that just means you can blow up everything faster with AoE. Your monks and ER/prot should have an easier time because they don't have to spread their focus. Furthermore, your claim that you become "mob bait" is pretty dubious to begin with. I don't think that's even true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

it's been done a million times before, you just don't hear about it. the reason for that being is it's a bad idea.

just as you think a warrior might look cool playing nuker, or a necro might look cool playing frontline, it's nowhere near as effective as playing the class the way it's meant to be played.

You are wrong for two different reasons.

First, unless you got someone already spamming SY!, the combination of strong offense and SY! is almost always better than anything a spell-based caster can bring to the table. I've already taken the necro build through several high level dungeons, including getting to duncan (although I forgot swap). I don't know of any spell-based caster, necro or otherwise, that would have such an easy time.

Secondly, I'll give you that in a highly coordinated team consisting of 8 players, a warrior will probably be better. But in an H/H setting, where skill slots are limited, battlemages are far, far from being outclassed. Because of higher energy and the ability to rune up primary attributes, they can usually do more damage outright and then, free up hero slots to take even more damage on top.

Quote:

I love seeing people come up with new ideas. My only concern is armor. What do you use exactly to keep yourself alive with this build? SY is great but affects other allies, a shield would help, or are you just gambling on killing everything before they have a chance to hit you? If thats the case then I think this would be really fun in NM but in HM I don't think it would hold up. Especially since you need the casters to be CASTERSKeep on coming up with new ideas mate, even if they don't work, at least you are trying.

Tbh, please try to be less patronizing.

To all the above posters: I'm pretty disappointed with the replies thus far, and the above poster seems to epitomize the attitude in this thread best. (I guess I really shouldn't be all so surprised.) What I've basically seen is close-mindedness, leading to stagnation and weakness in builds and tactics. It seems to me, most of you think the game has been "solved" and that there is no true creativity left in the game.

The fact is, most people are still stuck on triple necro, most people are still surprised to learn that strong dungeons like Frostmaw, duncan, SoO and vloxen can not only be H/H'ed, but H/H'ed easily. This of course shows that people are not as good at the game as they think. Of course, the game is dying, and there hasn't been any new content in years, and so for most people, there isn't really any impetus to be creative and THINK about builds any more. If that describes you, that is completely fine, but it's about time you stopped acting like experts.

TLDR: you guys are bad.

Winterclaw · Dec 19, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Armor is completely overrated. Instead, smart usage of prots can completely negate the downsides. Even just maintaining PS is usually enough for your monks to take care of the rest.

And yet I don't see PS on either of your builds. Frankly if I was monking and saw a mage in the frontline, he better have a very good reason to be there or I am going to start getting mad at him.

Quote:

Both of the builds I posted do far more damage than their warrior counterparts.

An even better way to do damage? Stop trying to to everything yourself, let the warriors be in the frontline and you support him from the rear. One player trying to do it all is just asking for trouble.

Quote:

If low armor makes you "mob bait" that's a good thing, because that just means you can blow up everything faster with AoE. Your monks and ER/prot should have an easier time because they don't have to spread their focus.

Right idea, wrong class to be doing that with. I'd rather someone who has 116/96 AL getting the mobs focus than someone with 80, something goes wrong the warrior at least has a little more to fall back on. You on the other hand shouldn't be screwing around with warrior skills and focus on being a caster to get the most use of your character.

If you want to play a warrior, make one.

Quote:

Furthermore, your claim that you become "mob bait" is pretty dubious to begin with. I don't think that's even true.

Thank you for admitting you don't know how the AI works.

We are not being close minded, we've just seen X/w tried before and X/w fail before. Every time someone says hey look at this we have to look at with suspicion as a lot of it doesn't work.

AtomicMew · Dec 19, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

And yet I don't see PS on either of your builds. Frankly if I was monking and saw a mage in the frontline, he better have a very good reason to be there or I am going to start getting mad at him.

An even better way to do damage? Stop trying to to everything yourself, let the warriors be in the frontline and you support him from the rear. One player trying to do it all is just asking for trouble.

You on the other hand shouldn't be screwing around with warrior skills and focus on being a caster to get the most use of your character.

PLEASE read. A spell-based caster CANNOT bring more to the table than a frontliner with SY! unless you already have SY! somewhere else. These builds are NOT trying to do everything. I have no idea how you get that impression. Their purpose is 1) to do damage and 2) put up SY!

Of course if you have a full 8 man team with a human monk, a warrior will do better, sure. But as I stated, if you have no one else spamming SY! and you only have a limited amount of skill slots to work with, these builds will add more to the team than a classic warrior.

Quote:

We are not being close minded, we've just seen X/w tried before and X/w fail before. Every time someone says hey look at this we have to look at with suspicion as a lot of it doesn't work.

Yes you are being close-minded. Just because you fail at it, doesn't mean the concept fails. As I stated, I've done several high level dungeons with the build already with just H/H with zero wipes. If I paid more attention and cared, I could do all of the dungeons without any deaths at all.

You are the one who doesn't have a clue. If as you say it does make you "mob bait" that's EXACTLY what you want. A sin has caster level AL and does not fail. (I often run my sin with candy instead of CA). That's because having less AL hardly matters at all. If you can't realize that, it's time to stop acting like an expert.

Hugh Manatee · Dec 20, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Assassins get stuff that compensates for their low AL though(which is still more the most casters at 70 base with extra from insignia), and their primary facilitates the offense they put out.

Though I did run a sort of battlemage a long time ago, conjured sword wielding E/W with mark of rodgort, hamstring, sever, gash and Victory is Mine in RA for fun, once assasins came along, they could match the damage and conditions and just hit way the hell harder, faster in more packets.

Thing about the concept not failing, there's a guy in the ranger subsection who claims traps are the most wtfpwn way to kill charr in HM, just cause you don't fail, it doesn't make it the best thing ever. Naked warriors in holiday headgear and weapons could roll their way through HM in some places...

Like the people have said, this isn't a new thing, the game is like 5 years old, people have tried the battlemage thing both ways(hamstorm W/E, and X/W like you're saying), and once they realize this isn't Morrowind, they give it up. Either way, you're better off having a warrior souped up to hit hard with HB and a necro with runed up curses to trigger MoP.

AtomicMew · Dec 20, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Assassins get stuff that compensates for their low AL though(which is still more the most casters at 70 base with extra from insignia), and their primary facilitates the offense they put out.

Though I did run a sort of battlemage a long time ago, conjured sword wielding E/W with mark of rodgort, hamstring, sever, gash and Victory is Mine in RA for fun, once assasins came along, they could match the damage and conditions and just hit way the hell harder, faster in more packets.

Thing about the concept not failing, there's a guy in the ranger subsection who claims traps are the most wtfpwn way to kill charr in HM, just cause you don't fail, it doesn't make it the best thing ever. Naked warriors in holiday headgear and weapons could roll their way through HM in some places...

Like the people have said, this isn't a new thing, the game is like 5 years old, people have tried the battlemage thing both ways(hamstorm W/E, and X/W like you're saying), and once they realize this isn't Morrowind, they give it up. Either way, you're better off having a warrior souped up to hit hard with HB and a necro with runed up curses to trigger MoP.

You're just plain wrong, and it's time to stop acting like an expert. If you care to have an honest discussion, please re-read my posts. I have disputed all your claims, previously.

1) Warriors get +2 in mastery, which hardly makes a difference.

2) Yes, you can take a HB war and a MoP hero, but you do in two characters what I can do in one. It's simply factually incorrect to say a warrior does more damage.

3) Sins can be run perfectly fine without CA with drunken master or just candy, which many people do. If they do, they actually have less armor due to sword/shield. Sins are good because they do huge damage that can't be matched by any other class, not because they have 10 more armor than casters.

Gennadios · Dec 20, 2009, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You're just plain wrong, and it's time to stop acting like an expert.

I was going to stay out of this conversation, but you're spending way more effort pretending to be an expert than anyone else that's posted. Couldn't contain myself

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

1) Warriors get +2 in mastery, which hardly makes a difference.

You are right. +2 mastery hardly makes a difference, but the +12 Strength makes 18% difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

2) Yes, you can take a HB war and a MoP hero, but you do in two characters what I can do in one. It's simply factually incorrect to say a warrior does more damage.

It's simply factually correct that a Warr /w 12+1+1 sword/12+1 str when combined /w a hero hero that has 12+1+3 curses WILL do more damage that someone /w 12 swordsmanship + 12 + 1+ 3 curses.

Not to mention MoP and Barbs take a hefty 3 seconds to cast. That's lost time that can be spent HBing/Whirlwinding opponents.

You COULD be making an argument for why exactly that kind of setup is better, be it saving an extra party slot b/c Curses heroes are now useless when compared to SoS heroes or whatnot, but conveniently forgetting entire skill attribute lines is not the way to go about it.

PS: You never did say whether you beat those zbounties in HM on NM. That little factoid makes all the difference. NM dungeons are something you suffer through once in order to get the Master of the North title points and never waste time on again. I've IW'd Vloxen and Raven's point, It would be an understatement to say that I was the least useful member of the H/H party.

No wipes though.

Tenebrae · Dec 20, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

+1 Gennadios.
LoLed when i read "Armor is completely overrated" on a SY! build .... and then "You're just plain wrong, and it's time to stop acting like an expert" . Well you are just plain stubborn and soz but not agreeing with you =\= not being an expert.

The thing is that this build is a sync between phys attackers and MoP+Barbs abuse. Well you are doing the "Phys attacker" part with a caster .... ok fine , is not a bad choice i can tell because that part is spam whirlwind , sun moon while HB is active and not dying meanwhile. But remember that , is "not bad" , hell never "really good" when compared to a W doing it. You obviously know that so you used a N/W and added more offensive stuff with a Rt/W but like Gennadios said , STR and casting times lower your DPS when compared to a HB warrior + AP MoP necro.

Sum up : Not bad , good builds and stats ...... not a bad choice , just that, dont rage.

Winterclaw · Dec 20, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Part of me is wondering what H/H build he was running and if this is NM/HM. If he's running something like sabway, discord, spiritway, etc. and it's normal mode it would be a ton different than if he was just grabbing some random heroes and doing it in HM.

AtomicMew · Dec 20, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

You are right. +2 mastery hardly makes a difference, but the +12 Strength makes 18% difference.

Most of the damage comes from the curses side.

Quote:

It's simply factually correct that a Warr /w 12+1+1 sword/12+1 str when combined /w a hero hero that has 12+1+3 curses WILL do more damage that someone /w 12 swordsmanship + 12 + 1+ 3 curses.Not to mention MoP and Barbs take a hefty 3 seconds to cast. That's lost time that can be spent HBing/Whirlwinding opponents.

Of course, but you are comparing 2 bars to 1. On the other hand, an N/W + SoS spamming spirits, splinter and a-rage will do more damage than a war + curse hero.

Also, the fact you think you EVER cast MoP and barbs on the same target is testament to you not having a clue what you're talking about.

Quote:

You COULD be making an argument for why exactly that kind of setup is better, be it saving an extra party slot b/c Curses heroes are now useless when compared to SoS heroes or whatnot

THat's EXACTLY my argument.

Quote:

PS: You never did say whether you beat those zbounties in HM on NM.

If you can't figure it out, you need to get out of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

HB warrior + AP MoP necro.

Yes, but that's not what I'm concerned about. If you have two players, your skill options are not limited. If you are playing H/H, your team benefits greatly from bar compression.

syphonus · Dec 20, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yes, but that's not what I'm concerned about. If you have two players, your skill options are not limited. If you are playing H/H, your team benefits greatly from bar compression.

Within this context I agree completely. He stated this from the very beginning; obviously a coordinated team with a necro slapping MoP on a HB target will put out more damage than a N/W could alone. But that's the point- the N/W is doing it alone. For H/H this could be invaluable, you wouldn't ever have to waste time with a Curses hero.

Any team with an ER ele will have absolutely no problem keeping this guy alive. And I'm not sure at all that the AP-MoP/HB combo's DPS advantage over the lone N/W makes up for the additional player slot you get with it.

Steps_Descending · Dec 21, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Out of curiosity, when did traversc (OP) said he wanted to see amazing builds? Does strong mean "competitive in a min/maxed environnement"? Is the point of that thread to look for optimal, competitive, Overpowered builds to change the meta?

ANd on a side note, if most of the +damage and HB are AL ignoring, does the strenght really makes a difference?

superraptors · Dec 21, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

ride teh lightning

frenzy

conjure lightning

dismember

agonizing chop

critical chop

res sig

optional

optional

cellardweller · Dec 21, 2009, 01:51 AM // 01:51

An N/W will be lightyears behind a dedicated Cursor because they can't bring Assassin's Promise.