Curse

Ensign · Oct 25, 2010, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Taking a step back:

The point of a tank is not to take damage. The point is not to be hard to kill. The point is to accomplish some other objective that necessitates being hard to kill to be successful. The original, military tank is heavily armored and hard to destroy...but the point wasn't to be hard to destroy, the point was to haul a huge gun into hostile territory to blow them up with, and that just wasn't possible without making it hard to crack.

Then Everquest came along and made raids where you tried to kill dragons and you needed characters that could take hits from it for several minutes, they get called tanks, and confusion ensues.

A tank is fundamentally a character that uses defense offensively. It is a character that is able to be much more aggressive and accomplish goals that a softer character could not because they are not durable enough.

The problem is that for far too many players in far too many games, the point of the tank as an offensive tool is lost. The point isn't to be unstoppable, the point is to do something with it; and if you don't have something to do with it, you're useless.

Thus: in the narrowest, Everquest definition of the hardest character possible to eat fire from dragons, tanks are useless in this game since that's just irrelevant. But hardened characters are great for a huge number of things, from balling mobs to killing flaggers. It's a mistake that stems from misinterpreting the tools themselves for their purpose.

Originally:

It tends to suck because it's a tactic from a game (everquest) that was *explicitly* designed for it, with mechanics and classes built for it, being applied to a game where none of that is true.

If you're playing WoW your 'tank' tries to maximize aggro on himself and your 'deeps' try to avoid aggro, and you both have abilities that manage this and nice meters that keep track of it for you. As far as I can tell it was the defining attribute of WoW raiding before they essentially itemized it to irrelevance (along with mana / resource issues, I guess the water birds were getting into trouble).

Guild Wars is not designed around this, but you can force it to work if you really really need to. But understand when you are using it that you're trying to execute some combo that is not at the core of the combat system.

Note: I'm using the WoW / Everquest definition of 'tank', since that's where the archtype originates.

EDIT: speed clears are essentially your small man farms scaled up; you're building a combo for a particular area and practicing execution. AI control is of course a big part of that and can be a huge force multiplier.

When I talk about just punching it in the face, that's your generic 'I don't know exactly what is here, but this will work' response. Having a 'general' tank for a low information area is silly. But specialized characters, and tanks, and strategies, to repeat particular mobs ad nauseaum...yeah, blow that up with a combo.

Life Bringing · Oct 25, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

They run straight to the boss, kill it and loot the end reward. There is no tanking, it speedclearing. If you actually speed cleared you would know that.

You're assuming that dungeons are the only scs. What about the mt in fow? DoA? Urgoz? Deep?

Quote:

Tank-n-spank tactics, their slow, dangerous and just plain bad. Urgoz, DoA, UW, Deep, Slavers doesn't require tank-n-spank or speed clearing. It fast and more efficient NOT to tank-n-spank.

Beat the Deep, urgoz, or doa times with a non-tank n spank team please.

Quote:

Deep without any tank-n-spank slow tactics. Without any speed clear mob control tactics, we gone in, killed everything and moved on.

What point does this prove? Euros have 2 man'd it and 3 man+9 heroed it faster than your 33 minute video.

SmokingHotImolation · Oct 25, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

While i agree that having a dedicated tank for regular PvE is unnecessary, i think alot of your points are either poorly explained or shows lack of game knowledge.

First of all it seems like you think that it is impossible for a tank to deal damage. This is untrue since all warrior builds are capable of tanking - not only Defy Pain, which i agree with you, is horrible.

Second of all, balling/bodyblocking can be very effective in pve. This doesnt take some tank'n'spank tactic to work - just having the warrior running a bit in front of the rest of the group is usually enough and works wonders since AI is stupid and will mostly stay locked on a target as soon as they've began hitting it.

Also stop posting elite area times as evidence. The deep in 33 minutes is not fast at all, and it only proves that running headless into an elite area without at least trying to bodyblock is ineffective.

WarcryOfTruth · Oct 26, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

In FoWSC they use a Main Tank.... O.o

maxxfury · Oct 26, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Tank-n-spank tactics, their slow, dangerous and just plain bad. Urgoz, DoA, UW, Deep, Slavers doesn't require tank-n-spank or speed clearing. It fast and more efficient NOT to tank-n-spank.

The fastest times show SC is quicker, and that involves tanking...or Is manlyway not considered a speed clear?

and the reason "balanced" teams arent on the list is because they just arent faster...due to the way the areas are setup.. huge balls and easy AI abuse to nuke

Tho i find no joy to be had in Sc's...

Jeydra · Oct 26, 2010, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Posting to say I fully agree with the four posters above.

Tank and spank might give you the impression that it's slow, but when you look at the sum total of time you spend (with /age), it's bloody fast.

You can hit 600 damage with one hit as a buffed melee, but if you can hit 10 monsters at a time with RoJ, or with Splinter Weapon + Mark of Pain + Whirlwind Attack, you are going to deal way more damage than 600 a hit.

Urgoz, DoA, UW, Deep, Slavers don't require tank-n-spank. But then again neither do they require ER Eles. Can we conclude ER Eles are bad? I get the feeling I need to start a topic asking people not to post this fallacious argument.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rElGpEg90eg

Chthon · Oct 26, 2010, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Speedclears are a red herring.

1. The spirit of this thread is about general purpose builds. It's "why you should not generally join a PUG for whatever and load a tank build," not "why you should never use a tank build ever." The fact that certain specialized teams in certain areas include tanks and do well does not mean that tanking is generally good.

2. To the extent that speedclears involve permas, yeah, they usually do run by a lot of stuff. That's not tanking; it's running. And it's an example of why having invincibility is just bad for the game.

3. To the extent that speedclears involve permas, and operate in the handful of elite zones with very large mobs, they are able to gather up balls that would not be possible if either of those conditions were false.

4. The success of speedclears is not solely due to the use of tanks. There is a huge amount of specialization that goes into every aspect of the team build. I am only aware of one group of people putting that level of effort into build design that isn't doing speed clears. If non-tank-based builds received the same amount of thought and attention, we'd see a lot more of them performing at the same level as the best SC builds.

5. The success of speedclears is subject to a huge reporting bias. The good runs get posted in the speed records thread. No one mentions their failed runs. PUG SC groups are notorious for their near 100% fail rate. (Show stones! Show stones! <Dies.>) I'd be curious to know what the honest fail rates are for SC guild groups.

Lishy · Oct 26, 2010, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Problem with Tanking is people try to tank where it is unnecessary. Tanking should only be used in Elite areas where a team is specifically geared towards the team build.

On the other hand, we have people doing Gate of Pain HM bringing Defy Pain plus Endure Pain. WTF?

Also, I propose Endure Pain gets its own thread. It sucks so badly, and n00bs keep taking it.

Zodiac Meteor · Oct 26, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

Problem with Tanking is people try to tank where it is unnecessary. Tanking should only be used in Elite areas where a team is specifically geared towards the team build.

On the other hand, we have people doing Gate of Pain HM bringing Defy Pain plus Endure Pain. WTF?

Also, I propose Endure Pain gets its own thread. It sucks so badly, and n00bs keep taking it.

THIS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You're assuming that dungeons are the only scs. What about the mt in fow? DoA? Urgoz? Deep?
Beat the Deep, urgoz, or doa times with a non-tank n spank team please.

Why would you think I assume that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedclear tactics

The purpose of speedclears is killing the boss and reaping the end reward. This requires good teamwork, knowledge of area+build etc. You the best way to do a speedclear by making yourself nearly invincible to slip by foes. Easily getting to a boss in the least amount of time because of avoiding mobs.

THIS IS NOT TANKING!

The purpose of tanks are to absorb damage for other party members, WHICH IS BAD and DOESN'T WORK WELL as I explained. There is a huge difference between absorbing damage for your team and avoiding it completely only for yourself.

I cannot believe I had to explain this

I'll say it again, speedclears =/= tanking.

Showing me record speedclear times is irrelevant, because IT'S NOT TANKING.
My 33 minute video has us beating The Deep with no speedclear tactics and no tanks. Try to beat that time with tank-n-spank.

Life Bringing · Oct 26, 2010, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Why would you think I assume that?

Mostly because of the line i quoted when i said that. Reading comprehension ftw.

Quote:

THIS IS NOT TANKING!

The purpose of tanks are to absorb damage for other party members, WHICH IS BAD and DOESN'T WORK WELL as I explained. There is a huge difference between absorbing damage for your team and avoiding it completely only for yourself.

I cannot believe I had to explain this

I'll say it again, speedclears =/= tanking.

This is precisely why i only mentioned deep, urgoz, doa, and the mt of fow. These are the parts of speedclears that do not rely on just running to the end boss.

Quote:

Showing me record speedclear times is irrelevant, because IT'S NOT TANKING.
My 33 minute video has us beating The Deep with no speedclear tactics and no tanks. Try to beat that time with tank-n-spank.

Umm, what? Seriously? Ok.
12man

6man

3man

2man

3man+9heroes

Oh man, those were really difficult to find.

JimmyTyme · Oct 26, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Yes, I agree it's stupid, but sadly it works, there are other just as effective means, like using a MM and spirit rit combo to get the crowd into place and focused, but tanks CAN be used to great effect (in certain areas) but honestly you're considering very poor uses, and even poorer judgment of this, as sad as i am to admit it, your argument makes me wanna punch babies out of pity for your narrow mindedness (You're almost as bad as those religious nuts)

godis · Oct 26, 2010, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Don't use warrior as tank.
Is that the short story of your post ?

FoxBat · Oct 26, 2010, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If non-tank-based builds received the same amount of thought and attention, we'd see a lot more of them performing at the same level as the best SC builds.

Doubt it. Whether you need to load up shadow form or not, as Jeydra mentioned, blowing up guys in an AoE ball is just plain more efficient almost everywhere. (caveat: when you know the area at the same level as a farmer) That means someone doing balling and blocking regardless of what kind of healing/mitigation the team brings, and always piling the damage on that one guy, because mitigation can be vastly more efficient on a single target.

**Marty Silverblade** · Oct 26, 2010, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Would you A, body block it with the elite Defy Pain or B, body block it with the elite Earthshaker? Regardless of your build, body block it just one build out does the other.

I'd run a normal damage build and snag SoA if I need it. You need to make a distinction between tanking builds and tanking techniques. Bodyblocking can certainly be done with a fair degree of reliability if you know what you're doing.

Jeydra · Oct 26, 2010, 08:51 AM // 08:51

I think Chthon hit the nail on the head.

If you have to make an 8-man team to do something completely random - for example, if you flip an 80-sided die (or however many areas / missions there are in GW), and you have to do the area assigned - then there's a good chance that standard SC builds don't work. Take the FoW SC build I linked to earlier. Can that build can vanquish Bukdek Byways faster than other, more general options? How about clearing Imperial Sanctum? That's the limit of an SC team.

However, even outside of SCs, proper aggro reaps big rewards. It's got nothing to with mitigating damage and everything to do with amplifying it. Everyone who's paid attention knows that when mobs ball into minions they die faster. Same applies to mobs that ball into Warriors, Sins, or whatever is holding aggro.

Agree with Marty, you need to distinguish between tanking and proper aggro.