Curse

Jeydra · Nov 02, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Edit: I'll put this as well. I really hope this doesn't get turned into a rage thread because leetist PvE players don't realize there is a game outside of The Underworld. A game where newbs (like my friend) completely miss out on information like this and hop into HM only to find getting their butts kicked left and right. Where Cynn is doing 40 damage with Meteor Shower, Mhenlo getting pummeled by Jotun and your running around with Defy Pain, whacking 10 damage at the Jotun that is completely ignoring you. This is why this is posted.

That's because your friend doesn't know how to tank, not because tanking is bad. It's not hard to tank Jotun lol, they're all melee ...

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 02, 2010, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

That's because your friend doesn't know how to tank, not because tanking is bad. It's not hard to tank Jotun lol, they're all melee...

There is 2 Mesmer and 1 Necromancer Jotun, these use ranged attacks. He knows how to tank, run in, aggro the mobs, ball and wait for nuke. Not so easy with bad players or heroes/henchies. Regardless of what foes he is fighting he tries this every time with poor results. Why? Because Tanking Sucks. Does he know? No.

I got to remember to point him towards EFGJack's thread.

Jeydra · Nov 02, 2010, 04:07 AM // 04:07

If he knows how to tank why is Mhenlo getting pummeled by Jotun? If he knew how to tank the Jotun would be attacking him, not Mhenlo. Gathering aggro has become almost a natural thing for me to do when I H/H, so saying that it's "not so easy" is just plain wrong. It's easy if you know what you're doing. If you're not then ... I guess you could argue that "tanking sucks if you don't know what you're doing".

By the way I don't support running Defy Pain as a Warrior. If I can tank as an AL 60 Ele, Warriors can tank without having to use Defy Pain. Defy Pain tanks may be subpar, but as before, that's not the fault of tanks, it's the fault of the player.

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 02, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

It's easy if you know what you're doing. If you're not then ... I guess you could argue that "tanking sucks if you don't know what you're doing."

No it's not.
That's like saying, "healing sucks if you don't know what your doing."

It's beyond just knowing how to tank properly, frontline classes can deal lots of damage. Sometimes tanking isn't needed to pass with flying colors. Every team of players you come across isn't going to ball+nuke every mob flawlessly. Look at Ensigns post, it's still relevant to today.

Nuking sucks in HM and in some places, normal mode.

Quote:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/8572/gw800ub6.jpg

But that isn't exactly right 100% of the time.

Edit: I'm changing the OP to cover the difference between tanking and tanking tactics. To avoid confusion, I'm just going to use the term what ArenaNet plan to use in GW2. Control.

Jeydra · Nov 02, 2010, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Sometimes ER Eles aren't needed to make the team pass with flying colours too. Does that make ER Eles bad?

Not every team of players you come across are going to ball enemies nicely. That's because they don't know what they're doing. Which runs directly into "healing sucks if you don't know what you're doing". The argument that a bar / idea / strategy is bad because people don't know how to execute it holds no water.

Tanking isn't directly relevant to nuking. Tanking balls enemies, and nuking prefers balled enemies. But there are also other methods of dealing damage that prefer balled enemies - Splinter Weapon, Mark of Pain, Hundred Blades, Whirlwind Attack, the list goes on and on. Also, if you closely read Ensign's post, you'll note that he says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's nigh impossible to calculate how much damage you can deal with AoE because it's entirely dependant upon how many people you can get into the AoE. The big issue here is the energy. A fire elementalist can easily consume 10+ pips of energy regeneration every minute. The upside is that they can realistically dish out enough damage to be worth that investment if they can get it. A character that kicks out 6 Fireballs, 3 Incendiary Bonds, and 3 Rodgort's Invocations in a minute, at a cost of 180 energy (9 pips), assuming he can get a second target on half of his Fireballs or Bonds and hits ~2.5 people with a Rodgorts, is dishing out 2845 damage, a perfectly acceptable number for a nuker. The problems, then, are being able to find enough targets fast enough to get good returns out of the AoE, and the ridiculous energy concerns of this character.

Do you really think you hit ~2.5 people with Rodgort's after balling them up? Or that you hit a second target on only half the Fireballs and Incendiary Bonds?

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 02, 2010, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Not every team of players you come across are going to ball enemies nicely. That's because they don't know what they're doing. Which runs directly into "healing sucks if you don't know what you're doing". The argument that a bar / idea / strategy is bad because people don't know how to execute it holds no water.

This. This is why I made this thread. Not 100% of Guild Wars players know what their doing.

1. Tanking isn't always needed.
2. Tanking tactics (aka control) doesn't require a player with high defense.
3. Frontline classes can deal damage.

Tanking Sucks, Nuking Sucks but they both have a good purpose which is why we still see, Nuker/Tank LFG.

But they aren't used like they should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP on what is tanking

This sounds ideal, sadly however, just because it works doesn’t mean it works well.

This is in my post.

Life Bringing · Nov 02, 2010, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Zodiac massively missing the point of Jeydra's statement and then removing the comment 15 minutes later

Yeah, you completely missed the point.

Quote:

When you use Control when your team is built around your build.

Oh, sorry i didn't realize that putting PS+SoA onto your heroes counted as your team being built around your team. I guess SoH+GDW+MoP+Orders doesn't count as building your team around your build, right?

Quote:

This. This is why I made this thread. Not 100% of Guild Wars players know what their doing.

1. Tanking isn't always needed.
2. Tanking tactics (aka control) doesn't require a player with high defense.
3. Frontline classes can deal damage.

Tanking Sucks, Nuking Sucks but they both have a good purpose which is why we still see, Nuker/Tank LFG.

But they aren't used like they should be.

You contradict yourself here =\. Also, your OP would be extremely detrimental to a new player trying to learn how GWs is currently played.
1. Duh
2. They require off-character defense if your character doesnt have any.
3. Duh

Jeydra · Nov 02, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Tanking doesn't suck if it's used like it should be. Lots of people have given you proof, just look around.

Tanking doesn't suck because it isn't needed, too. Monks aren't needed, ER Eles aren't needed, consumables aren't needed, in fact few things are needed in Guild wars, but they don't all suck.

Sure frontline classes can deal damage. What does that have to do with tanking? Aggro control doesn't require a player with high defense. So? What does that have to do with tanking? Since when did tanking require a player to have high defense?

You (badly) need to define what tanking is. As it is you are completely off on multiple points. If you define tanking as mitigating damage done to the team, then aggro control is definitely tanking. Good aggro vastly reduces the damage your team takes - as you can see in the FoW Manlyspike videos, you can even reduce that damage to zero. Do you think EFGJack could've achieved his times without mitigating damage? If you're fool enough to run into Borguus Blisterbark and his entourage of Burning Spirits without Prot Spirit / Prot Bond / splitting up, you die almost regardless of what your H/H teambuild is. Uh uh. Oh, and if you say tanking is mitigating damage for the team then ER Eles are tanks because they put Prot Bond on everyone and mitigate a ton of damage.

Get your definitions right, or you won't get anywhere.

Warrior The Known · Nov 02, 2010, 05:59 AM // 05:59

This post is retarded.... There is not one record for any dungeon/elite area that doesn't employ either shadowform for the entire team or tank-n-spank bars. There is never a place except for vanquishing where physway is better.

Calista Blackblood · Nov 02, 2010, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Please read my previous post. Ironically there is some evidence that I didn't need to prove.

Edit: If this is just lashing out at me, I'm going to request a ban. Please keep this to a logical level, read my posts and have good arguements. No evidence is needed, examples will do fine.

The moderators will decide who gets what. Thank you...

Also - Your entire postings are still very much not making sense. You've contradicted yourself soo much I'm barely believing that you have a clue what you're talking about,enough of a clue that would warrant you the continuation of this thread.

I'd suggest a very prompt rewrite of your post again without the idiotic statements and fallacies.

Elfblade · Nov 02, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

I think the name of the thread is a wrong statement and some arguments in the OP are not entirely correct. for me tanking(dedicated tanking) is dying in a way, in a way that minions and spirits are now doing the job and that physicals have less defense orientated builds(see EFGjacks build which is mostly offence than defence and utilizing bodyblocking and grouping the foes) and rely more on external protection (be it minions, spirits or prots(the Er ele spamming prots all over)) more than earlier years.

I would say bodyblocking and grouping the foes as a strategy does not suck but dedicated tanking is indeed dying(speaking from HM vanqs and some dungeons perspective).

Concluding that it is dying out from regular ways of pve HM & NM but is still very viable in SpeedClears.

SmokingHotImolation · Nov 02, 2010, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior The Known

This post is retarded.... There is not one record for any dungeon/elite area that doesn't employ either shadowform for the entire team or tank-n-spank bars. There is never a place except for vanquishing where physway is better.

And don't forget that physway use tanks (or tanking techniques, but don't really wanna get into that) aswell, although their tanks run damage builds. So his arguments is invalid even if beyond speedclears.

Until OP changes his view on bodyblocking i'm just gonna keep not taking him seriously.

P_A_A · Nov 02, 2010, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Edit: I'm changing the OP to cover the difference between tanking and tanking tactics. To avoid confusion, I'm just going to use the term what ArenaNet plan to use in GW2. Control.

Quote:

The difference between Tanking and Tanking Tactics, AKA Control:
Control involves balling up a mob of enemies and then nuking them from afar. Although it is seen as tanking, because tanking requires a good defensive build to ball up foes. This is true but doesn't mean it's tanking. In EFGJacks Guide to HM with Henchies/Heroes thread he was getting amazing times without the need for any sort of tanking skills. Control isn't exactly easy either, for the most part, it involves staying alive long enough for the players to ball and nuke. Most of the time, a single player cannot pull this off with their own set of 8 skills so other players are involved with nuking and keeping the player alive. When you use Control when your team is built around your build.

So again this whole post was just to say we shouldn't bring Defy Pain or Dolyak's Signet into our bar? I mean...the only guys that run that are PuG's and PuG's won't read the forum anyway.

However, id like to remark this phrase:

Quote:

When you use Control when your team is built around your build.

Mark of Pain + Shield of Absortion =/= a team built around your build.

DigitalFear · Nov 02, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

There is 2 Mesmer and 1 Necromancer Jotun, these use ranged attacks. He knows how to tank, run in, aggro the mobs, ball and wait for nuke. Not so easy with bad players or heroes/henchies. Regardless of what foes he is fighting he tries this every time with poor results. Why? Because Tanking Sucks. Does he know? No.

I got to remember to point him towards EFGJack's thread.

This is why tanking sucks in your eyes. You don't realize there are people who -can- ball stuff up nicely, bodyblock well etc; do you?

Winterclaw · Nov 02, 2010, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Tanking doesn't suck if it's used like it should be.

Killing things > making them look at you only.

BTW, tanking was designed in a mush or something like that were you could have a ton of mobs in one room and no way to pull one, body block, etc. It was a gimmick in the pre-graphical world days that for some dumb reason it has held over.

Life Bringing · Nov 02, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Killing things > making them look at you only.

BTW, tanking was designed in a mush or something like that were you could have a ton of mobs in one room and no way to pull one, body block, etc. It was a gimmick in the pre-graphical world days that for some dumb reason it has held over.

Read the other thread please. Your point has already been brought up and shot down

SmokingHotImolation · Nov 02, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

> Implying that you can't hold stuff while dealing damage.

I like how you ignored almost every post/argument in this thread.

paranon · Nov 02, 2010, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Ok, i think the first thing that should be done is to define tanking, because we seem to be arguing more about what the word tanking actually encompasses.

I would say that the word tanking takes into account a range of techniques that are frequently used to achieve two basic aims:
-The first aim is to focus the enemies damage onto one party member (usually with stances or buffs to make them more resilient) which means that the monks can focus their healing and protection on that one character and means the party can kill the foes without worrying about being attacked.
-The Second aim is to focus the team's damage and improve the efficiency of the team by grouping the enemies into a "ball", meaning that AoE damage can be used to great effect in quickly dispatching the group.

I could go into more detail but i think that is a good basic definition to work from, if (as i suspect) some people are arguing using fundamentally different definitions of tanking then there is a key misunderstanding that has nothing to do with the issue being discussed.

Cuilan · Nov 02, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Most of the support for tanking in this thread mainly mentions tanking in heavily structured teams for specific areas. That's great, but not for somewhat balanced groups. It also isn't as needed to prevent damage when you have a strong set of casters that won't easily wipe. Tanking tactics is fine, but not with poor Defy Pain builds or with a poor tank player. It's simply easier for a group to bring damage mitigation of other kinds and smash face without having all the wait with a non-damage build failing to ball or clashing with the party. Not all foes come in large numbers to be worth balling, not all ball easily, and they can often be in maps where it's narrow enough to not need balling for damage.

This thread is more of having to do with having the whole party playing more skillfully and active than standing waiting for a call. Both can be fine, but pure tank builds and parties based around them have risk and aren't optimal if the party (humans or H/H) isn't based around it and the area.

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 02, 2010, 09:33 PM // 21:33

This thread has gone straight to flaming. Please get it out.

100% of the things that were argued is in my original post.

The only thing I added since the OP was the difference between tanking and tanking tactics.

If it was actually read, you can find out I said tanking works but there is a time to tank and not to.

Quote:

Mark of Pain + Shield of Absortion =/= a team built around your build.

Yeah... and the point? Please go into more detail.
-------------------------------------------

Quote:

If this is just lashing out at me, I'm going to request a ban.

Quote:

The moderators will decide who gets what. Thank you...

/facepalm, alerting a mod about posts purposely flaming like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeBringing

I mean...the only guys that run that are PuG's and PuG's won't read the forum anyway.

Not true. If that was the case, Profession guides, Q&A sections would be meaningless and pointless.
^
This might get overlooked when a mod reads this.
----------------------------------------------
Also, these points are covered.

Quote:

-The first aim is to focus the enemies damage onto one party member (usually with stances or buffs to make them more resilient) which means that the monks can focus their healing and protection on that one character and means the party can kill the foes without worrying about being attacked.
-The Second aim is to focus the team's damage and improve the efficiency of the team by grouping the enemies into a "ball", meaning that AoE damage can be used to great effect in quickly dispatching the group.

and

Quote:

This. This is why I made this thread. Not 100% of Guild Wars players know what their doing.

1. Tanking isn't always needed.
2. Tanking tactics (aka control) doesn't require a player with high defense.
3. Frontline classes can deal damage.

Tanking Sucks, Nuking Sucks but they both have a good purpose which is why we still see, Nuker/Tank LFG.

But they aren't used like they should be.
-------------------------------------------------------
You contradict yourself here =\. Also, your OP would be extremely detrimental to a new player trying to learn how GWs is currently played.
1. Duh
2. They require off-character defense if your character doesnt have any.
3. Duh

Please read -
The difference between Tanking and Tanking Tactics, AKA Control:
When to Tank:
When not to Tank:
To tank, or not to tank, that is the question:

If these were read, you would understand tanking works in situations and sucks in situations. That the situations between these are pretty black and white, not hard to figure out at all.

Lastly, just to throw this in here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Original post

2. Tanking-n-spanking allows midline to deal damage from afar without worry from being attacked.
That is correct, but once again it’s not always done flawlessly or even outclassed in most areas.
- Tank-n-spanking is mainly used in harder missions, where foes hit hard and fast. Where weaker players get slaughtered due to lower armor/no defense skills. My focus here will be The Deep, this is perfect because it has three levels of skill which it can be done.
a. Tank-n-spank, nuker style. Everyone and their mother did this one time or another. It requires at least 3 tanks, 4 or so nukers, some monks and necro’s with one a BiP. The idea is ball up all enemies in a room while players run in and hit the foes. The most memorable thing about this is it can take over an hour. Either enough damage isn’t done, tanks die and/or the team nearly wipes. This tactic is very slow and overall isn’t safe.
b. Physway, physical style. It doesn’t require an ER healer to play this way and a monk could even do better. Foes in the Deep aren’t very strong to require a tank-n-spank. Go ahead, charge head on into a fight, as long as your team was ready for it. It is possible to do this easily under an hour. I’ll go into more details on melee physicals later.
c. Tank-n-spank. Hex style, hexes are by far superior to nuking in Guild Wars. Most can trigger indefinitely in the time limit and some even have AoE effects which makes them even deadlier. While Searing Flames could deal 90+ fire AoE damage by the time you cast that ball of Oni could have taken five times that damage from Spiteful Spirit.
The Deep is a good example that tanking does work and does not work, depending on the team setup.

I really shouldn't be quoting so many words from my original post, it only proves that some posts here are merely flaming without reading.