Curse

Cebe · Jan 28, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Ok, so I got bored and decided to perform a small test. Channeling Ritualist vs Air Elementalist. My test subjects were the first group of 3 Jade Brotherhood Knights outside The Marketplace in Wajjun Bazaar.

Channeling Rit went first.

After trying out a few differing builds and combinations of skills the best I could muster was getting the 3 JB Knights down to about two thirds of their original health. My method was to cast Destruction. Wait 20-30 seconds, cast Destructive was Glaive and aggro them, draw them over to the spirit, and, whilst doing so, cast Spirit Rift. I finished casting Spirit Rift by the time they got to me so I could drop Glaive's Ashes, use Ancestor's Rage and Feast of Souls to destroy Destruction. I then died.

Air Ele was up second.

The best I could manage here was getting the JB Knights down to about half health. I used Air Attunement followed by Aura of Restoration, then as I aggroed them cast Chain Lightning and when they got to me I used Whirlwind. I then cast Invoke Lightning > Tenai's Wind > Lightning Touch > Whirlwind...then I died.

So on the face of it the Air Ele won...sort of. I'd rather have actually managed to get the Jade Brotherhoods down. I decided to cheat afterwards and used the earth magic skill Stoneflesh Aura and with that on I could get them down to about one third health.

So. Some people claim Channeling Ritualists are more powerful than Air Elementalists. I don't see it. Aside from anything, my Ritualist's atempt to get down the Jade Brotherhood Knights also took far longer than the Elementalist's since she had to wait for Destruction to be alive long enough to do any sort of damage.

So onto my question. How powerful can a Channeling Ritualist actually be? Has anyone come up with any builds that are actually worth being used? I only play PvE...so...is there a Channeling build that is of any vague use here...that might have some form of respectable damage output? Earlier I tried using Generous was Tsungrai and Caretaker's Charge. Can someone tell me how that is a good elite? I mean, the energy gain is nice but other than that...the damage is just non existant. So if you're going to spam that you might as well just tickle the enemy.

I'd be interested to see if anyone can get those Jade Brotherhood's down. They are pretty tough as test subjects I guess...
[Edit: Oh yea, while I remember Vengeful was Khanhei isn't allowed, mmmkay? I already know that works...and it aint Channeling

]

I don't want a PvP vs PvE debate either...please keep it clean. I don't care who would win in a fight if you battled the two. In my search for Channeling builds GuildWiki seems useless... All I'm wanting is to know if I can get my Rit's PvE channeling capabilities as good as, if not better than my Air Ele. Any thoughts?

Alex Morningstar · Jan 28, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Attributes:
Channeling Magic: 16 (1+3 headpiece)
Spawning Power: 13-15 (Depends on HP preference, I use 13)
Restoration Magic (or Healing Prayers/Protection Prayers, require /Mo secondary): 3

Skills:
Ancestor's Rage
Destruction
Essence Strike
Spirit Boon Strike
Spirit Rift
Spirit Burn
Spirit Channeling (Elite)
Flesh of my Flesh (or other res spell)

Give that one a try.

Oso Minar · Jan 28, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Are we talking about ONLY using skills in the Channeling Magic and Air Magic line? If so, why'd you use Aura of Restoration? Being a Channeling Ritualist doesn't mean we only draw from one tree.

skaspaakssa · Jan 29, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

I think there are a couple things wrong with your test. Firstly, channeling is used more for single-target damage than AoE (well, for me at least). The builds you used here aren't really practical for normal play. Both builds would run out of energy pretty fast. Then, your Elementalist has survival skills (Aura of Restoration, Teinai's Wind, Whirlwind), but the Ritualist doesn't. It seems to me this is only half a test of damage, the other half is testing survival.

Just for fun, I tried to do it and I got to a bit past the 20. Although I did "cheat" a bit... but nothing more than your elementalist imho. I cast Grasping was Kuurong, waited a bit, cast Destruction, and waited more. Then when they came, I dropped GwK, Rupture Soul, Ancestor's, recast GwK, Ancestor's drop GwK... something like that.

Terra Xin · Jan 29, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

Are we talking about ONLY using skills in the Channeling Magic and Air Magic line? If so, why'd you use Aura of Restoration? Being a Channeling Ritualist doesn't mean we only draw from one tree.

You also used [skill=text]Feast of Souls[/skill] which is under Spawning Power. I would have actually used Rupture Soul myself, that heal for FoS isn't useful, the blind is, however.

I stand by my point that Channeling deals more damage than Air, but I had to learn the long way that having those conditions alongside Air Magic is what makes the difference. In terms of DPS, I still think that Channelling comes out on top.

You also left out one factor of channelling, it has great synergy with Restoration Magic specifically, but can also work with Communing and Spawning Power also. Air Magic has some combinations with Water Magic, and general synergy with Energy Storage, but compared to Ritualists?

Cebe · Jan 29, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

Are we talking about ONLY using skills in the Channeling Magic and Air Magic line? If so, why'd you use Aura of Restoration? Being a Channeling Ritualist doesn't mean we only draw from one tree.

Thought someone may ask that. I was sleepy when I wrote it so I apologise if I didn't get my point across. I guess "using Channeling skills on the whole" is what I meant...ie, dip into another attribute for some self heals/e-management etc... I mean, we know VwK works like a charm...but Channeling Rits, ie, a rit that doesn't heal, spam spirits, or use VwK just seem like a joke. Like I said, I tried using Generous was Tsungrai as a self heal with Caretaker's Charge but the damage was so piss-small that compared with taking my air ele out it just seemed negligable in comparison. I think my first attempt with the air ele didn't use Aura of Restoration - it didn't make a massive difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skaspaakssa

Just for fun, I tried to do it and I got to a bit past the 20

"past the 20"?

I wouldn't call GwK "cheating", it's Channeling after all...but the thing about channeling rits seems to be that you have to wait AGES for anything good to happen. For example, you need to wait for Destruction to "charge up"...a lot of ashes have massive recharges...with an Air Ele you just charge on in and deal the damage...no messing about waiting for spirits to become powerful enough to deal any sort of damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skaspaakssa

Then, your Elementalist has survival skills (Aura of Restoration, Teinai's Wind, Whirlwind), but the Ritualist doesn't.

This is also a valid point. As I already discussed above I tried GwT + Caretaker's Charge....the damage was pittiful and the healing was nothing to shout about. The Ele does indeed have knockdowns and blinds...which personally I would have thought made it win hands down. True, Rits have Grasping was Kurrong but that has a big recharge...the Ele can knockdown....knockdown...knockdown... Perhaps if I used Thunderclap with her I'd fare even better...just never thought of that last night...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

Skills:
Ancestor's Rage
Destruction
Essence Strike
Spirit Boon Strike
Spirit Rift
Spirit Burn
Spirit Channeling (Elite)
Flesh of my Flesh (or other res spell)

Give that one a try.

Thanks, but how do you play it? I'm seeing very little point in Destruction. Monsters ALWAYS kill is before it "charges"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

You also used Feast of Souls which is under Spawning Power.

Yea, I think I mentioned about this at the top. I was tired and probably didn't articulate myself very well. I think in terms of self-preservation and e-management I allowed myself to dip into another attribute... But like, with the ele, I didn't let her use water magic for instance. Yes, I used Stoneflesh aura at the end but just out of curiosity. I used to use Spirit Channeling a lot and like it...but I thought a Channeling elite may have been better...seems not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

I stand by my point that Channeling deals more damage than Air, but I had to learn the long way that having those conditions alongside Air Magic is what makes the difference. In terms of DPS, I still think that Channelling comes out on top.

Eh? I'm confused as to what conditions you're talking about... Are you talking about conditions an Air Ele can impose on a foe or the condition that you have to allow Destruction to charge up...or something else? As for the DPS...When I play Air Ele, on the rare occaision I use Elemental Attunement (I generally don't use e-storage elites) I can pump out damage very fast. I aught to combine it all with Serpent's Quickness maybe. I just cannot get my Rit to deal that sort of damage.

Corinthian · Jan 29, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Precasting Destruction is cheating. Aggro the mob first then try it. There's too many variables in this test to make it reliable...

Cebe · Jan 29, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Precasting Destruction is cheating. Aggro the mob first then try it. There's too many variables in this test to make it reliable...

I did try that

It just goes to prove how bad Destruction actually is. Like I already said, Monsters kill the spirit before it can actually be of any vague use...so it's just plain not practical to use it in PvE. You can't really say "Sorry guys, can we wait for my Destruction to charge up for 25 seconds before we aggro them?"...apart from anything the Wammo will take no notice and charge straight on in anyway. By the time Destruction will have "charged" the mob will be dead.

Now don't get me wrong. I love my rit. It's one of my favourite characters, and when it comes to Spirit Summoning or Restoration she's fantastic...but Channeling REALLY doesn't seem powerful enough. Which is a shame...because I can see potential but it's all just so slow and weak when I actually try to use it.

Terra Xin · Jan 29, 2007, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I really wish that this thread could take place a week from now, based on the test weekend, it got me really excited about the future potential of the Ritualists, but for now, I'll have to argue with what the class currently has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Precasting Destruction is cheating. Aggro the mob first then try it. There's too many variables in this test to make it reliable...

That's a lame argument. Pre-casting Air Attunement would also be cheating, then. One charges for damage, the other supports damage availability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Eh? I'm confused as to what conditions you're talking about

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

The Ele does indeed have knockdowns and blinds

Quote:

As for the DPS...When I play Air Ele, on the rare occaision I use Elemental Attunement (I generally don't use e-storage elites) I can pump out damage very fast. I aught to combine it all with Serpent's Quickness maybe. I just cannot get my Rit to deal that sort of damage.

Attuned Was Songkai + Serpent's Quickness. I'm stating similarities here, not whether or not its the only viable build for the channeler.

Quote:

Yea, I think I mentioned about this at the top. I was tired and probably didn't articulate myself very well. I think in terms of self-preservation and e-management I allowed myself to dip into another attribute... But like, with the ele, I didn't let her use water magic for instance. Yes, I used Stoneflesh aura at the end but just out of curiosity. I used to use Spirit Channeling a lot and like it...but I thought a Channeling elite may have been better...seems not.

Destructive was Glaive isn't really a good skill to put on the chopping block anyway. Channeling Magic lacks in the elite department compared to Air Magic.

Quote:

Thanks, but how do you play it? I'm seeing very little point in Destruction. Monsters ALWAYS kill is before it "charges"..

The biggest problem about Channeling Magic is that Destruction is the only spirit there. You have Gaze of Fury, but unless your relying 100% on other targets' spirits, then you have to take Destruction anyway. With that in mind, people are more likely to use this spirit as a utility to fuel their other Channeling skills, rather than use its damage. Its almost like having Air Attunement, you don't really need the skill, but having it increases your effectiveness.

As for the build? Um... *cough*

Cebe · Jan 29, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

I really wish that this thread could take place a week from now, based on the test weekend, it got me really excited about the future potential of the Ritualists, but for now, I'll have to argue with what the class currently has.

*snip*

Destructive was Glaive isn't really a good skill to put on the chopping block anyway. Channeling Magic lacks in the elite department compared to Air Magic.

The biggest problem about Channeling Magic is that Destruction is the only spirit there. You have Gaze of Fury, but unless your relying 100% on other targets' spirits, then you have to take Destruction anyway. With that in mind, people are more likely to use this spirit as a utility to fuel their other Channeling skills, rather than use its damage. Its almost like having Air Attunement, you don't really need the skill, but having it increases your effectiveness.

As for the build? Um... *cough*

I should have played with Channeling during that weekend...I meant to just never found the time. Would Destructive was Glaive not be made more usable if it did keep that extra armor penetration etc..?

I have to say I was very disappointed when I say Bloodsong possibly moved to the Channeling line. It will hurt my rit a little since I like to take it when I go Summoning. But I guess I can see it's use in the Channeling line if it does get permanently moved.

Perhaps you would let me know of any worthwhile skills to look into in a week or so's time?

Terra Xin · Jan 29, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

I should have played with Channeling during that weekend...I meant to just never found the time. Would Destructive was Glaive not be made more usable if it did keep that extra armor penetration etc..?

That elite didn't get the testing it deserved, it was bugged through most of the weekend (actually had an AP of 40%), and then it was reduced to 5% on the last day.

frojack · Jan 29, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

This test is almost meaningless...

Iscana · Jan 29, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I do have a Channeling Ritualist, but the damage you do to enemies in PvE is really low. Even with attribute 16 and being able to spike 150 damage I can't solo it. The boses easely reduce 150dmg done by a skill to just 60 whish makes uit quite useless to use channeling in PvE. Spirits are also not really usefull in PvE when solo, enemies just kill them in matter of seconds before they are recharged or even able to attack or do there job.

If you want some serious Solo PvE build, go Mesmer 2nd and use VwK, spam healing skills, and some energy denial and you can kill that Boss Ele close to Marketplace, I did it, althought I had to heal myself like crazy, but finally did it.

(except that anoying Ritualist that walks around that dude)
I even solo Aflicted in de undercity with restoration skills and 2nd mesmer.

But channeling is really cool for PvP, you can make some insanely fast spikes which cost less then lightning skills from ele. Also Spikes from Rits are most of times a nice suprise for another PvP players. I use a spirit as energy battery to keep my energy all times in good conditions as well that certain channeling skills add some xtra damage output. To add some mobility there are some another spamable channeling skills. But all by all it's not to mend for tanking or whatever, more a build to get out of focus of the enemy team and spike team to death 1 by one. It works really well in AB, GvG and heard people about HA and HoH as well.

Jetdoc · Jan 29, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

All this test did was prove that Air Elementalists do more damage over shorter periods of time. Channeling ritualists simply do more damage over longer periods of time.

Try the same test against a boss using the PvE wall trick...you'll see what I mean. Air elementalists have a hard time taking down a boss solo (especially if it has a healing skill) because if your initial spike fails, you simply don't have the energy to keep it going. Channeling ritualists can outdamage a boss's heals/natural regeneration because they can keep the pressure on them.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 29, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

All this test did was prove that Air Elementalists do more damage over shorter periods of time. Channeling ritualists simply do more damage over longer periods of time.

An Air Ele with Ele Attunement might be able to match a channeling rit for sustained dmg while also doing higher dmg.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 29, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

In another thread someone wrote that channeling rits suck because the class lacks any kind of flavor. The spells do a small amount of damage with no afteraffects, whereas an ele can chuck around blind and weakness like they're going out of style.

With the way the spells are now, the only way to buff them to usefulness is to make them do stupid amounts of damage. Only problem is, that leads to a 321disaster.

An air ele that doesn't have the energy to keep spamming spells all day long is clearly a retarded air ele.

The differerance between taking 3 seconds precasting destruction that's good for one spike and waiting 20 seconds for it to charge vs. taking 2 seconds precasting an air attunement good for a little over a minute then charging in and blowing the crap out of things should be pretty obvious.

frojack · Jan 29, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Yeah, I remember Ensign (and others before him) saying the same thing to. However we don't need another Elementalist. The Channeling line has quite a few quirks people always want to forget about. Warmonger's Weapon, Nightmare Weapon (buffed version, yeah I know it's not 'real'), Splinter Weapon, Destruction, Essence Strike... Show me the Air skills that can compete with these in terms of quirky potential.
Sure enough, the air ele is generally better for straight up damage, but that's all they can really do (beyond knocking people over and blinding/weakening foes every now and then). A rit (even a blinkered, Channeling fool) can deliver so much more than that.
Also a lot of people don't like playing around with gimmicks (Dual-builds etc), but that's what the whole Rit class is. Nobody said Gimmicks were bad. A good few people have made these gimmicks work rather well (some admittedly better than others). If you don't like it, play another class...

Dr Strangelove · Jan 30, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Yeah, I remember Ensign (and others before him) saying the same thing to. However we don't need another Elementalist. The Channeling line has quite a few quirks people always want to forget about. Warmonger's Weapon, Nightmare Weapon (buffed version, yeah I know it's not 'real'), Splinter Weapon, Destruction, Essence Strike... Show me the Air skills that can compete with these in terms of quirky potential.

Destruction is trash, and essence strike helps you support trash. That being said, the weapon spells, if they get buffed, will be somewhat interesting. That's more for buffing your physicals though. If you want to deal direct damage, you'd be better off grabbing spirit's strength and mauling things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Sure enough, the air ele is generally better for straight up damage, but that's all they can really do (beyond knocking people over and blinding/weakening foes every now and then). A rit (even a blinkered, Channeling fool) can deliver so much more than that.

Air eles deal decent damage, cause extended kds, give out speed boosts, throw around blind like a toy, spam weakness, and have enough energy left over to aegis chain. A channeling rit can, um, cast destruction and hope someone stands by it 30 seconds from now. A restoration or communing rit can tear things up, a channeling rit can stand around and look pretty (If you have ancient armor

)

draxynnic · Jan 30, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

With the way the spells are now, the only way to buff them to usefulness is to make them do stupid amounts of damage. Only problem is, that leads to a 321disaster.

Actually, from what someone in another thread (I think it was one of the test weekend threads) said is that the problem with Channeling rits isn't the blasty Channeling skills. They're all fairly good as they are, certainly if you can fulfill the conditions. The problem is that the pure Channeling rit has few decent skills to fulfill those conditions. So buffing the Channeling line doesn't require adding more and more to the damage of the zappy spells - it's more a question of improving the spirits, weapon spells and items available to a channeler so they're all useful in their own right rather than purely being there to fuel the condition.

Or you could just multispec into Communing or Restoration...

Batou of Nine · Jan 30, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

How can yall be using [skill]Destruction[/skill] WITHOUT [skill]Rupture Soul[/skill]?!?! That's proposterous!

Attributes:
Channeling Magic: 16 (1+3)
Spawning Power: 13
Restoration Magic: the rest.

Skills:
Spirit Rift
Destruction
Rupture Soul
Essence Strike
Spirit Boon Strike
Grasping Was Kuurong (E) or any e-management elite.
Optional
Optional

If you work time right you can afford the full cycle once, but without any sort of e-management you can't recover from the energy usage very fast. Drop Destruction just outside of aggro range. Aggro, caste Grasping, upon arrival of foes to adjecant range caste Essence if a little energy is needed for Rupture. AFter at least 20 seconds cast Spirit Rift, use Rupture Soul, drop Grasping Was Kuurong, then use any self heal or e-management you may have brought...

All in all you just did 79 dmg from Grasping + 142 dmg from Rift + 146 dmg from Rupture + around 100 dmg from Destruction + KD + Blind = 467 Pre-Armor Lightning dmg. So of course if they will still be alive, you have some time to recover with 13 seconds of blind on them... Use Essence + whatever else you got for e-recovery, or use something for self heal... This is a general PvE AoE build...

As most said though, you can actually dish out a steady stream of DPS on single targets as a Channeling Rit... hehe. Ya so thats my 2 cent fun build...

cheers!