Curse

upier · Oct 29, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

What's wrong with spirits in a build? Why do the spirits have to be Life or Recovery? Sounds like an argument for PvP so again I remind you, this is PvE.

Aegis is 50% block and can be removed. Displacement is 75%. PS is for one person. Shelter affects all. And also, shielding hands/soa would be needed also to take the job of union. But aside from all that, would you really recommend the OP to put 9 in prot and bring those skills? Why not just go and tell him to delete his rt and make a monk?

I'm not saying my build is the best, but it is an option that should be considered instead of being shot down immediately.

No, no, no.
I am not suggesting this to the OP.
What I am suggesting is that if someone would want to run an effective version of your build - they should just throw 9(10 - if one wants SoA also) into Prot and use the skills I listed.

If on other hand they want an effective AP build - they should look into what Nighty posted.
Abusing PvE skills is good!

ac1inferno · Oct 29, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I gave my build because he said he was a rt. I understand that a prot monk would work better. It's just that I'm not going to tell him to go be a monk instead of a rt.

Super Igor · Oct 30, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

he didnt say that prot monk is better, actually, I didnt get what he said, upier is stoopit, ups. :<

Whole argument is that ashes you use are bad and can be replaced by a spirit or a resto spell or a weapon spell.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

What's wrong with spirits in a build? Why do the spirits have to be Life or Recovery? Sounds like an argument for PvP so again I remind you, this is PvE.

Because the other spirits are inefficient. Practically all of them die too fast or have a negligible effect which can be surpassed by another skill. Life and Recovery both have quite strong effects and can be used outside of aggro range without harming their efficiency.

Quote:

Aegis is 50% block and can be removed. Displacement is 75%. PS is for one person. Shelter affects all. And also, shielding hands/soa would be needed also to take the job of union. But aside from all that, would you really recommend the OP to put 9 in prot and bring those skills? Why not just go and tell him to delete his rt and make a monk?

Shelter and Displacement die extremely fast whereas Aegis is continuous. Not to mention the fact that enemies in PvE fail at coordination. Union does next to nothing comparable in damage mitigation to SoA, because believe it or not SoA reduces next to 100% of the damage they throw at you discounting life stealing. And I hate to be a prick here, but Ritualists in PvE don't offer anything that another profession can't, a la Soul Reaping.

Quote:

I'm not saying my build is the best, but it is an option that should be considered instead of being shot down immediately.

If it's not the best in a thread requesting help, don't post it. If the OP stated specifics, then give him the best bar of the sort and a little run through of the do's and don'ts. Assassins' Promise or OoS doesn't specify a build type such as Spirit Spammer, it specifies 2 elites of the choice of the OP.

Super Igor · Oct 30, 2008, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And I hate to be a prick here, but Ritualists in PvE don't offer anything that another profession can't, a la Soul Reaping.

Lies, they have spirit's strengh.

ac1inferno · Oct 30, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Spirits aren't bad in PvE. They might be in PvP because people there are smart enough to interrupt/target it. But in PvE, monsters aren't going to be watching for a spirit being put up to interrupt it or sneak through the frontlines to kill it.

It's true that they die fast, but that's why Assassin's Promise is in the bar.

Mesmer in Need · Oct 30, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Lies, they have spirit's strengh.

Because rit's are the only profession that can do damage with weapon attacks.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Spirits aren't bad in PvE. They might be in PvP because people there are smart enough to interrupt/target it. But in PvE, monsters aren't going to be watching for a spirit being put up to interrupt it or sneak through the frontlines to kill it.

It's true that they die fast, but that's why Assassin's Promise is in the bar.

Yet they still die incredibly fast. I wouldn't even use a Spirit Spammer with that skill that heavily decreases spirits' recharge, and then there's the casting times.

ac1inferno · Oct 30, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

The spirits shouldn't die that fast especially when the build has 14 in Spawning and Signet of Creation. Casting time is long but you don't have to worry about a dshot in PvE.

You wouldn't use it. And I respect your decision, but that's not to say all Spirit Spammer builds are bad.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Casting time is long but you don't have to worry about a dshot in PvE.

That wasn't my point. Considering the incredibly lengthy casting time of most spirits, if you're using them mid-battle (because they're bound to have died next to immediately, and that's even easier to happen when you're using something that can make minions), you won't be able to bring them back up for them to actually do something. A prot should be on-demand and fast casting or at least contain the possibilities of enhancing one of its properties in a normal manner. You can also use AP with Aegis too, if you're so uptight about blocking. Keep in mind that with Aegis it can be modified to a certain extent of efficiency.

upier · Oct 30, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

he didnt say that prot monk is better, actually, I didnt get what he said, upier is stoopit, ups. :<

Whole argument is that ashes you use are bad and can be replaced by a spirit or a resto spell or a weapon spell.

Oh girlfriend, shouldn't you go back to not chaining Aegis?

The whole point is the fact that a RL spirit spammer - which is now trying to be replaced by the build given (the AP spammer) fills a role that is otherwise reserved for a Prot monky.
Which means that this build should perform at least as good as the monky - if not better.
And it did. And we abused the hell out of it. (And I LOVED playing it.)
And now - it doesn't. And we don't bother with it any longer.

spirit of defeat · Oct 30, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That wasn't my point. Considering the incredibly lengthy casting time of most spirits, if you're using them mid-battle (because they're bound to have died next to immediately, and that's even easier to happen when you're using something that can make minions), you won't be able to bring them back up for them to actually do something. A prot should be on-demand and fast casting or at least contain the possibilities of enhancing one of its properties in a normal manner. You can also use AP with Aegis too, if you're so uptight about blocking. Keep in mind that with Aegis it can be modified to a certain extent of efficiency.

Did you ever TRY using Spirit's?
I use spirit builds more than half the time and it works just fine.
Protection Isn't as strong as DMG spirit's

Super Igor · Oct 30, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Oh girlfriend, shouldn't you go back to not chaining Aegis?

In PvE? Yeah sure. /sarcasm

ac1inferno · Oct 30, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That wasn't my point. Considering the incredibly lengthy casting time of most spirits, if you're using them mid-battle (because they're bound to have died next to immediately, and that's even easier to happen when you're using something that can make minions), you won't be able to bring them back up for them to actually do something. A prot should be on-demand and fast casting or at least contain the possibilities of enhancing one of its properties in a normal manner. You can also use AP with Aegis too, if you're so uptight about blocking. Keep in mind that with Aegis it can be modified to a certain extent of efficiency.

You set them up right outside of a battle, then pull aggro. Use Signet of Creation, then Assassin's Promise on something that's going to die. The reason why they die fast is because the effects are working on everyone. If they die immediately, that's because you're pulling way too big of an aggro and the spirits got wiped because it soaked up too much damage from everyone.

If you manage aggro good enough, you should be able to have the spirits set up before the battle, recharge when it's finished, and repeat.

And like I said, I gave him what I thought was a good Rit build using Assassin's Promise. I'm not going to tell him to delete it and make a monk.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

You set them up right outside of a battle, then pull aggro. Use Signet of Creation, then Assassin's Promise on something that's going to die. The reason why they die fast is because the effects are working on everyone. If they die immediately, that's because you're pulling way too big of an aggro and the spirits got wiped because it soaked up too much damage from everyone.

If you manage aggro good enough, you should be able to have the spirits set up before the battle, recharge when it's finished, and repeat.

And like I said, I gave him what I thought was a good Rit build using Assassin's Promise. I'm not going to tell him to delete it and make a monk.

And to speed things up a bit, get someone to aggro nearby mobs in the process. To get every-single-spirit up and ready for effect means you're wasting time that Aegis could take advantage of. Prots shouldn't not be instantanious for the most part anyway; in some cases, they're like that because if they weren't they'd be horrible imbalanced. (partywide block at 1/4 cast? non-elite block at 1/4 cast?)

Otherwise, the time you set up the spirit, they're either dead because of a huge mob or they're useless because you aggro'd f*** all.

ac1inferno · Oct 30, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I don't know why you keep bring up Monk skills. Like I said, I'm not going to tell him to delete his Rit to make a Monk. I gave him a Rit build using Assassin's Promise that I thought was good. If you don't like it, it doesn't make it a bad build.

It wouldn't be a huge mob if aggro was managed properly. And if the spirits died from a huge mob, at least someone in the party didn't, right? It's hard to aggro something while setting up spirits, since you're not moving and all while you're doing that, unless you planted yourself in the middle of a patrol.

TheDarkshineKnight · Oct 30, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

I don't know why you keep bring up Monk skills. Like I said, I'm not going to tell him to delete his Rit to make a Monk. I gave him a Rit build using Assassin's Promise that I thought was good. If you don't like it, it doesn't make it a bad build.

It wouldn't be a huge mob if aggro was managed properly. And if the spirits died from a huge mob, at least someone in the party didn't, right? It's hard to aggro something while setting up spirits, since you're not moving and all while you're doing that, unless you planted yourself in the middle of a patrol.

Any build based on spirits is by default bad. Spirits simply take too long to cast, cost too much energy, and have too damned long of a recharge time, and even if you can bypass those problems, you still have to deal with them being extremely fragile. Plus, everything spirits do can be done better utilizing the skills of other classes.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

I don't know why you keep bring up Monk skills. Like I said, I'm not going to tell him to delete his Rit to make a Monk. I gave him a Rit build using Assassin's Promise that I thought was good. If you don't like it, it doesn't make it a bad build.

That's what the wammo said to me. If someone likes the playstyle of a Ritualist, so be it. But that's no reason not to look at the downfalls of some things and not to compare, or even say why something's bad. And again, a build utilising Assassins' Promise doesn't point directly at a Spirit Spammer. Unless the OP posted specifics of the topic.

ac1inferno · Oct 30, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

Any build based on spirits is by default bad. Spirits simply take too long to cast, cost too much energy, and have too damned long of a recharge time, and even if you can bypass those problems, you still have to deal with them being extremely fragile.

Spirits shouldn't be that fragile with 14 in spawning and a sig of creation to give them +7 regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

Plus, everything spirits do can be done better utilizing the skills of other classes.

That may be true, but I'm not going to say "Rt sucks. Delete. Make new." when the OP is asking for advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That's what the wammo said to me. If someone likes the playstyle of a Ritualist, so be it. But that's no reason not to look at the downfalls of some things and not to compare, or even say why something's bad. And again, a build utilising Assassins' Promise doesn't point directly at a Spirit Spammer. Unless the OP posted specifics of the topic.

Yes, I know a Spirit Spammer is bad compared to a Prot Monk, but the OP is a Rit, not a Monk. So I gave him what I thought was a good Rit build using Assassin's Promise and would work for him since he's a Rit, not a Monk. You compare the spirits to superior alternatives such as Aegis but the OP does not have the option of that unless he goes and become a Monk.

The build was posted to show the OP something he could do with Assassin's Promise while being a Rit. It would be his decision to run it or not, not a decision you need to make for him. The build will be bad if another build that's similiar, but works better, is posted. Not when it is compared to a build that is completely different and from another profession unless you truly believe that the Rit should be deleted and remade another profession.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Yes, I know a Spirit Spammer is bad compared to a Prot Monk, but the OP is a Rit, not a Monk. So I gave him what I thought was a good Rit build using Assassin's Promise and would work for him since he's a Rit, not a Monk. You compare the spirits to superior alternatives such as Aegis but the OP does not have the option of that unless he goes and become a Monk.

The build was posted to show the OP something he could do with Assassin's Promise while being a Rit. It would be his decision to run it or not, not a decision you need to make for him. The build will be bad if another build that's similiar, but works better, is posted. Not when it is compared to a build that is completely different and from another profession unless you truly believe that the Rit should be deleted and remade another profession.

Yes, but a Spirit Spammer is much, much more inferior to something that spews out weapon spells or abuses PvE skills. Just because a Ritualist is there to shit out spirits doesn't mean that it's much better throwing out GDW's, Splinters and Wardings.