Curse

Davin Kabak · Jun 17, 2005, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Well, where to begin....

Ok, about the shield...
It's a Canthan Targe, which is what I got from my Beta Preorder.
Don't know it's stats, or what it's good for?
Look it up and find out.

About the Leggings...I was wrong. It's not +1 Expertise, but +1 Energy and +1 Energy Regen. I checked on my Ranger. -=shrugs=- I said I was going from memory.

The Balanced swordsmanship build...
The unfocused balanced build is less for PvP than PvE. Overall it is less effective, if your team lacks Warriors for tanking. It is good for a quick-response character, but its not going to do any one particular thing very well, sacrificing real killing power, for flexibility in reacting to new situations.

Tiger Fury/Frenzy...
Not bad skills, but I find that for my particular method, they don't work well. I would rather have an additional +Dmg skill that I can spam, rather than a skill that gives me a temporary boost, then takes a while to reacharge. I will touch on this later.

Self Heals...
As far as self-heals, a Ranger is meant to be more self-sufficent than other classes. I let Monks heal me fine, but I have had MANY monks tell me that they appreciate the fact they don't have to worry about me as much as the other players. If I can take care of all but the most critical healing myself, that leaves more mana and time for the Monk to heal other people. Despite what you might think it IS one of the major strengths of the Ranger class.

I will concede one point...Rangers are meant to use the Bow. Melee is really only secondary, and something to fall back on in close quarters, when your energy is depleted. That is how I use it anyway. Adrenaline skills are great to use, once your energy is gone, or you've been hit with disruptions that make your skills recharge slower (I.E. Distracting shot).

Basically...spam the bow till your energy is gone, then switch to sword...till energy and skill recharge is back. Then switch back to Bow. Depending on the situation, Pin Down works for getting back out to range, so you can stay out of direct contact.

For most of my HoH runs, I run the All-Bow setup above, and reconfig my specs to full Expertise. One may ask..."why go Warrior Secondary then, instead of another class?"

Honestly, because once a Ranger reaches his/her full potential, they rarely need ANY skills from another class, with one, possibly two exceptions on their skill bar. Usually, I am running only Ranger skills, for the biggest/toughest battles.

The reason why I use Determined Shot for damage.... its CHEAP. 5 Energy. With high expertise, this is reduced to 3 or so. Thats made up in the time it takes to make the shot. Slow recharge means it is not a spammed skill. It's a filler skill, for when Hunter and Penetrating are unavailable. Usually this is due to bow reload time, and there are instances where you will draw a regular arrow instead of a skill arrow. IN this instance, you have to RE-Draw the skill arrow, if you havn't hit the skill button BEFORE the regular shot is drawn. That is why I use Determined shot, as a +dmg filler skill until the others are ready to be hit on my skillbar. ALSO, it has an added benefit.

If a target is moving in a way that I KNOW I will miss, and any long-recharge skills are still cycling, I will use Determined shot anyway. It recharges ALL your skills if you miss. And for only 5 energy. If it hits, it does moderately extra damage. Win-win situation. Works GREAT in combination with Incindiary arrows.

In essence, when running the all-bow setup, I am almost NEVER firing a 'regular' arrow. All Skills, all the time. That increased DoT with the bow, in the long run, and increases killing power. It's about Energy Management, more than direct damage.

I would rather use 10 bow skills with +X Dmg, than 4 skills with +2X dmg, in the same amount of time. Yes there's always going to be a counter, and Mend Ailment is my bane.....but remember this...

I am not going to be killing your Warriors first. I'm going to be killing your MONKS first. Monks can't mend ailment if they're DEAD.

P.S: Traps, just to let you know, Runes of the same type (I.E. Marksmanship, Expertise, etc) do not stack, so only the most powerful rune will give you the bonus. The others of that type will do nothing. (I don't think this has been changed in the last couple of builds...someone correct me if it has indeed been changed.)

Kishin · Jun 17, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davin Kabak

Well, where to begin....

I am not going to be killing your Warriors first. I'm going to be killing your MONKS first. Monks can't mend ailment if they're DEAD.

You're not going to be killing anything with that build. You do abysmal damage.
Like I said, you don't even have a damage speed buff. Monks will laugh at you. One cast of a 5 energy, 2-5 second recharge heal will heal more damage than you can do in twice that amount of time.

If you wanted a cheap spammable +dmg skill, why aren't you using Barrage, considering it costs 5 energy and recharges in 1 second?

Also, if you're running bow only in PvP, then that renders this whole argument about melee/bow hybrids being viable in PvP moot. Even respecced to bow though, your bow only skillset is horrible. You're carrying two heals, one of which is Troll Unguent, and the other is Healing Spring. Its great that you desire to help your team, but this isn't the way to do it. Contrary to what you may think, no monk in the HoH is really incredibly worried about you by virtue of the fact that you are a Ranger and they should know that by the time people get around to attacking you, its already too late. As for PvE, you're generally not getting attacked there either, and I'm willing to bet you'd be more helpful to your team without having something as self-interested as your own heals.

Self sufficiency in Guild Wars is born of vanity and people wanting to stand on their own rather than rely on their team. You don't need Troll Unguent except maybe in 4v4 (which counts approximately nothing except for getting the occasional kick). I'll keep saying it, and maybe you'll get it. You are not a priority target. You're not even secondary or perhaps even a tertiary. On an 8 man team, you can count on being attacked either 7th or 8th, at most 6th (In any other case your team has entirely too many warriors). By the time you need healing, its already too late.

You're not telling anyone anything new when you say a Ranger has hardly any need for skills from another profession since they have such a diverse smattering. But again, aren't we talking about Ra/Ws here? You also aren't saying anything new when you say you're almost never firing a regular arrow. That's the point of 14 Expertise.

We've ranged far off topic, anyway. The point is, your build, as far as Ra/Ws go, is very much sub par.

Davin Kabak · Jun 17, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I do not debate that a Monk, healing himself, probably cannot be killed by my damage output, even with conditions. Frankly, any one single character attacking a monk who has nothing else to do but heal himself, will have difficulty doing this.

But remember, this is PvP...If I can make that monk focus on healing himself...he's NOT healing his teammates. You've mentioned that my build makes me vainly unreliant on my team. Not so. I simply take a different strategy with me into the arena. My role is to harrass and/or kill Monks, or other key targets. I also remain self-sufficient, so that my monk can focus on healing other people who need it more. OR...as you so expertly made a point of...himself. If I am self-relaint enough to survive, that means I can help keep my monk safe. If I can distract a chasing warrior from my monk for 2 seconds, that's enough for him to cast a heal, and survive as well.

I've seen a lot of situational talk here, but most of it is highly subjective, and all is directed at countering a particular tactic. As I've been stating from the beginning, there's -always- a counter, we all know this. The REAL test, though, is when the entire team uses individual and combined strategies to succeed. I take a broader view of my strategies, not just me, my build, and my damage. We all have our role. Just because I use mine, doesnt mean someone else couldn't use their own strategy even better....or worse.

I don't mind being a low priority target, because underestimating my abilities is the first flaw of a potential foe. True, I could use Barrage, but then that would end my Kindle/Apply poison prep and drain energy. I could do any NUMBER of things that you might consider effective, but would not meet my style of play, and therefore be less effective for me. This game is just flexible enough to allow such a variety of viable combinations.

Quite frankly, I don't mind at all that even after explaining my build to everyone here, some of you continue to underestimate it. That, in my mind, is PERFECT. That is how this character was built to be. I could spend many more hours explaining how everything about my build works to my advantage, tactics, strategies, and the like...but I won't.

I'll keep using my build, and everyone else can use theirs. Opinions will vary, but eventually, results speak for themselves. The opinions that truly do matter the most, though, are those of my teammates. I've always had really good feedback on my results..

I've offered my perspective on rangering, based on my experiences in playing the betas and beyond. The rest of the readers of this thread can take from it what they need. That is, after all, the point of this entire discussion.

Kishin · Jun 17, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I could spend just as many hours explaining why your build is an Arena build that will get you nowhere against competent guilds or Tombs teams, but you wouldn't listen anyway.

Your build plays to none of the Ranger strengths, as said above. Your conditioning is weak, you don't have good DPS or even burst damage, you waste slots on healing, you have no interrupts, nothing to help with denial/shutdown....You're just plinking away doing insignificant damage and being a warm body. Your teammates are basically carrying you.

Davin Kabak · Jun 17, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I realize that is what you believe, because you have skills you think are more effective than others, but it is simply untrue. Perhapse it will not work in -your- team strategy. it works quite well in mine. The Ranger's flexibility and ability to take care of themselves (and yes, heal themselves) IS a stregth, that can be exploited very well by someone who knows how.

Your view is narrow-minded, and you are wrong on many counts. Since you did not take the hint from my previous post, I will make it very clear. I will no longer respond to comments about this subject, to allow the rest of this thread to continue.

ICURADik · Jun 17, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

I vote to delete all his post. He has some decent assumptions... Degens are better than people think. Throwing a poison arrow on all members of the other team is 64 dps. Ignoring your normal attacks. But his other ideas about Troll Ungent with dual weapons are absolutely inane and useless.

Jun 17, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Actually no, his view pretty much outlined everything wrong with the build. In short, it does nothing. It doesn't work in his team strategy because obviously it will work in no one's team strategy(that's trying to win).

A Ranger with no attack speed buff that's trying to do damage is usually useless.
A Ranger with no disruption strong enough to shut down a caster is also useless.

Like the guy said, you're build plays to none of the Rangers strengths. To put this into a clearer perspective: Rangers and Warriors are the last to be targetted. The reason is because of their armor and the fact that they can be hated out somewhat easily. Good Rangers and Warriors become priority targets because they are doing something so well that they have to be focused. Your build just doesn't do anything, and allows teams to play 8v7. It may sound harsh but that's the reality of the build. The dps is poor, the disruption doesn't exist and you dont even know how the skills work to correctly estimate what the build actually does(which is nothing).

Traps · Jun 17, 2005, 10:04 PM // 22:04

i think thats what my ranger basicly is what blackace just said

i cant do damage and i cant stop casters. im a ranger monk and im losing hope again in my ranger.

my current stats

expertise-10(rune)
wilderness surival-10(minor runes)
marksmenship-12(mask+minor rune)

i cant seem to use anyskills well

current build
-----
barrage
disrupiting shot
throw dirt
Nature's Renewal
Favourable Winds
troll urgent
barbed trap
rebirth
----
help!!

Jun 17, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Too much in one build and not enough focus. 2 Nature Rituals and 2 traps? Barrage can easily be the only pure attack skill in a build, but it needs to be supported by something. Distracting shot is the only thing there. Why not Pin Down, Power shot(depending on bow), Tiger's Fury, Judge's Insight, Strength of Honor+Vamp Bow in extreme cases or something to either boost damage, or add in more focus+utility.

Traps · Jun 17, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

strenght is honor looks like it can help but i was going to pick up insindary arrows today

ICURADik · Jun 17, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Actually no, his view pretty much outlined everything wrong with the build. In short, it does nothing. It doesn't work in his team strategy because obviously it will work in no one's team strategy(that's trying to win).

A Ranger with no attack speed buff that's trying to do damage is usually useless.
A Ranger with no disruption strong enough to shut down a caster is also useless.

The quote tool if very useful. Not sure if you talking to me or someone else. All I was pointing out is that poisons are highly underated. 8 health loss a second for 20 seconds is not exactly amazing, but for the cost of one skill slot, negligible energy, and the ability to apply to multiple people makes it great for overwhelming a healer. Of course you will be using other skills such as throw dirt, distrating shot, tiger's fury, and the normal Penetrating Shot for added damage.

Once again, every other point he makes is absolutely useless. But poisons are powerful when used correctly.

ICURADik · Jun 17, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Too much in one build and not enough focus. 2 Nature Rituals and 2 traps? Barrage can easily be the only pure attack skill in a build, but it needs to be supported by something. Distracting shot is the only thing there. Why not Pin Down, Power shot(depending on bow), Tiger's Fury, Judge's Insight, Strength of Honor+Vamp Bow in extreme cases or something to either boost damage, or add in more focus+utility.

Power Shot is very weak in comparison to Penetrating attack.

Jun 17, 2005, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

The quote tool if very useful. Not sure if you talking to me or someone else. All I was pointing out is that poisons are highly underated. 8 health loss a second for 20 seconds is not exactly amazing, but for the cost of one skill slot, negligible energy, and the ability to apply to multiple people makes it great for overwhelming a healer. Of course you will be using other skills such as throw dirt, distrating shot, tiger's fury, and the normal Penetrating Shot for added damage.

Once again, every other point he makes is absolutely useless. But poisons are powerful when used correctly.

I was talking to someone else. Just so happens that when I was writing you posted just before me.

My take on poison is that it of course works best when you hit the whole team. However, you need to combine it with something else to actually make it a huge threat. Dumping a bunch of Dots on a team is ok but easily beatable, throwing some masking conditions or hexes on top is extremely painful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Power Shot is very weak in comparison to Penetrating attack.

Yea sub PA. I actually like that alot more than PS, even if the bonus vs Casters isn't all that much.

UsagiNoSenshi · Jun 18, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

i would just like to say... I am a Beast Master...

:: prepares to be flamed::

So many people say how useless my build is T_T it makes me sad beacuse i think i've done rather well, i mean i've acended already. I've only had to take my pet out for fighting my mirror self, that's it. I'm not big on PvP so i'm not worried about that.
I have a pet strider, named Mr. Feathers.

Beast Mastery- 13
Marksmanship- 13
Expertise - 8
Wilderness Survival- 2

Power shot
Call of Haste
Feral Lunge
Predator's Pounce
Troll Ungent
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
(random res or capture signet)

and no i have no clue why i have the random 2 Wilderness. Any suggestions? should i mess with some more runes?

caveman6686 · Jun 18, 2005, 05:32 AM // 05:32

small question
can u apply psn then use a psn arrow? will it stack?
or am i just dreaming

Seth Oriath · Jun 18, 2005, 06:13 AM // 06:13

No, there are no stacking of conditions like that. Just as bleeding doesn't stack with bleeding, Poison doesn't stack with poison.

However, you can stack different conditions together, such as Bleeding, Poison, and On Fire, plus any hexes that do health degen (only one hex per, though). It'll stop at -10 degen, but all degen beyond -10 goes into a retroactive state; if someone tries to give them, let's say, Healing Breeze (and let's say +8 health regen), and they already have a -14 health degen (even though they're only taking a -10 degen damage), then the degen will only go down to -6. Annoys the dickens out of Monks when that happens.

burianek · Jun 18, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Ok, I've almost got this one fine tuned. Wouldn't mind suggestions. Went on a 14 game winning streak in the team arena with this one with the rest of my team:

1 W/Mo
1 Mo/Me
1 Me (yup, no 2ndry)

and me:

R/Me: Energy drain dominatrix

Domination 11
Expertise 10 + 3 + 1
Marksman 10 + 1
Beast Mastery 1 + 1

Tiger's Fury
Echo {E}
Debilitating shot
Pin Down
Empathy
Distracting Shot
Mind Wrack
Rez Signet

I used a half moon, but you can suit to taste. You need to hit though. I wouldn't recommend a flatbow or high arc bow for this build.

This is kind of how I played:
Depending on the other team, if it's warrior heavy, echo pin down and try to take them out of the conflict, this worked marginally, but what worked better was:

Find the enemy Me if there is one, allow the rest of the team to target someone else. If no Me, target the Mo. Throw up echo before you engage to give your energy a chance to recup. When they get in range, echo debilitating. two quick debilitatings, and then while you're waiting for recharge, toss on a mind wrack. Two more debilitatings. while they're recharging, run to a better vantage point. Two more debilitatings, at this point most Mes will be out of energy. Watch for the spike the mind wrack puts on him. You're not too interested in damage, you just need a tell that he's dry. If you see the spike early, stop. If not by this time, you proly missed a shot. Just stick on him and finish the energy drain. Echos probably gone by now, so you'll have to take it slower.

Once you see the spike that mind wrack hit, switch to the monk and start the same thing. With a Me greatly diminshed in his capacity to hurt your Mo, your team is probably doing ok. The Mo has probably tapped quite a bit of his reserves by this point in the fight, so depending on the situation, you can hold echo as an ace in the hole for something else later, or continue to echo debil. I actually had one fight where I echo'd tiger's fury and had it running constantly while we were trying to spike the enemy resurrect priest. (hate that map)

If you get hit by a spirit shackle or pacifism or something nasty, you have empathy to fall back on and spam. If the team is concentrating fire on a guy, flick on tiger's fury or start chaining mind wrack, debil, mind wrack, debil. It's not efficient at all, and there are better ways for others to deal dmg, but if you need a quick spike, it works ok in a pinch. Try not to abuse Tiger's though. I found myself running out of energy with this build. I didn't need Tiger's to sequence my attacks either, you may find that a lot of enemies start running when their energy gets low, so you'll be doing some running yourself for positioning.

If you really don't have any casters to harrass, you can always fall back on empathy to help out the melee conflicts. There were a number of times where empathy on a single warrior beating on our Mo (who was self healing) worked pretty well.

Using distracting shot when needed and scanning the field for long casting animations or resurrects goes without saying. I'm terrible at switching targets, but I'm getting slightly better.

Again, this guy is kind of a flexible support tool, that you can tailor on the fly vs the other team.

Here are a few of my considerations:

I'm thinking of swapping out domination for inspiration. I found myself running out of energy, even at 14 expertise regularly. Mind wrack isn't all that useful, I'm just using it as a crutch for when to switch targets, so I could probably ditch that for some sort of energy tap for when i get low. And there are some nice spells in inspiration that could replace empathy.
That's one thought.

If I did decide to stay with domination, perhaps a power leak or power spike. But I can't see these stacking too well with distracting. So I decided against them.

If I went insp, I also thought about getting rid of tiger's in favor of something like hex breaker or some other stance. Spirit shackle is just downright ugly when you throw it on a Ranger. I dunno, seems like a waste though. Still searching for the perfect fluff to throw around the echo, debil, pin down core.

Any comments?

Traps · Jun 18, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

for the other rangers other there heres some tips

-use preprations and rituals for damage +'s durying battle
-traps never hurt...you

-sugesting elite skills for pvp. 1 poison arrow and insindary arrows(anti-caster)

i was p/oed before at my ranger build,but now ive finally figured out on how rangers work. A Master was one an Apprintice remember that.

Magic Gan Man · Jun 19, 2005, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Can anyone think of a good build for a R/ME that has a good balance between anti-cast and defense so i dont have to worry about dieing the whole time and mabe a lil dmg to but i think that down with high marksmanship

Nidhogg · Jun 19, 2005, 02:15 PM // 14:15

To UsagiNoSenshi:
I just wanted to say good luck to you and Mr. Feathers

I have always wanted to try a beast mastery build and now I think I will. I hear pets become more powerful if you have more pet skills on your skill bar so I am going to try that. Also if you are having fun in PvE dont let anyone try to ruin that for you! P.S. Give Mr. Feathers a hug for me (I love that name!) XD