Curse

DarkSpirit · Mar 30, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

2X cast ftw.
Look, you're dedicating more slots to interrupting on a Mesmer in PvE because shutdown has to be, BEYOND powerful to have a fully decent effect on a monster that would die in like 2 seconds with or without interrupts.

2 slots for caster shutdown, and keeping damage potential is much, much stronger.

If you want to shutdown just 1 caster, sure, daze is perfect. It increases spell casting speed by 2 times and even normal attacks would interrupt it.

But mesmer interrupts are more useful for its secondary effects. For example, you get a REAL AoE skill interrupt and damage from CoF, not the BHA->Epidemic->Volley combination that doesn't work on heroes. With Power Drain you get a nice energy bonus and so on.

With enough interrupts on the skill bar a mesmer can also shutdown 1 caster in PvE. Even without bringing too many interrupts, mesmers have Power Return (5s recharge like savage shot and PvE monsters have a high energy store anyway) and Mantra of Recovery for fast recharging spells. But like I said, mesmers get all kinds of advantages from their interrupts, like Power Spike that gives armor-ignoring 102 damage at level 12, Savage shot only gives 25 damage at level 12 and can be reduced further through armor. Sure Power Spike has 12s recharge while Savage Shot has 5s, but with Mantra of Recovery, Power Spike has only 8s recharge so the difference is not that great. Fast Casting also allows mesmers to interrupt spells with very fast casting time more than arrows that require flight time.

Tyla · Mar 30, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you want to shutdown just 1 caster, sure, daze is perfect. It increases spell casting speed by 2 times and even normal attacks would interrupt it.

[skill]epidemic[/skill] says hi.

Quote:

But mesmer interrupts are more useful for its secondary effects. For example, you get a REAL AoE skill interrupt and damage from CoF, not the BHA->Epidemic->Volley combination that doesn't work on heroes. With Power Drain you get a nice energy bonus and so on.

It does work on heroes, actually. No microing involved.
Plus Epidemic, BHA and Volley can be used more than once. Daze is reusable interupt.

Quote:

With enough interrupts on the skill bar a mesmer can also shutdown 1 caster in PvE. Even without bringing too many interrupts, mesmers have Power Return (5s recharge like savage shot and PvE monsters have a high energy store anyway) and Mantra of Recovery for fast recharging spells.

Fast recharging spells don't need MoR, Savage Shot can interrupt anything.

DarkSpirit · Mar 30, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

[skill]epidemic[/skill] says hi.

Pyre says bye. They hardly use it.

Quote:

It does work on heroes, actually. No microing involved.
Plus Epidemic, BHA and Volley can be used more than once. Daze is reusable interupt.

It is not that they dont cast it at all but they dont understand the sequence. For example, they dont know to use BHA then Epidemic then Volley. They just use volley most of the time. Even if they dont use BHA they would still cast Epidemic if the monster is bleeding and it is the last monster left.

On paper the skill sequence looks good but you must take into account the stupidity of hero AI and skill sequences like that are not understood by them, so it is wasted.

Quote:

Fast recharging spells don't need MoR, Savage Shot can interrupt anything.

True that most mesmer interrupts are spell-based, but they also have CoF which is an AoE skill interrupt but the recharge is high provided you use MoR which brings the recharge down to a more comfortable 10s.

Tyla · Mar 30, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Pyre says bye. They hardly use it.

It is not that they dont cast it at all but they dont understand the sequence. For example, they dont know to use BHA then Epidemic then Volley. They just use volley most of the time. Even if they dont use BHA they would still cast Epidemic if the monster is bleeding and it is the last monster left.

I always micro my heroes anyway. I see them throwing BHA on as soon as, and hitting the good old Epidemic button anyway.

Quote:

On paper the skill sequence looks good but you must take into account the stupidity of hero AI and skill sequences like that are not understood by them, so it is wasted.

Read above.

Quote:

True that most mesmer interrupts are spell-based, but they also have CoF which is an AoE skill interrupt but the recharge is high provided you use MoR which brings the recharge down to a more comfortable 10s.

10s, big woop...by then I could of just spammed Volley and still be more effective on that part.

DarkSpirit · Mar 31, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I always micro my heroes anyway. I see them throwing BHA on as soon as, and hitting the good old Epidemic button anyway.

Do you always see them do that? They dont usually hit Epidemic so maybe you just got lucky once. I tried many times but I never ever seen them hit epidemic right after BHA, they just want to volley. They also normal attack alot.

If you have a heroes build where they always hit BHA then Epidemic then Volley, you can post it here and I can try it out. As far as I have tested, they tend to use BHA then Volley rather than BHA then Epidemic.

If I need to micro manage then I am not using the hero's natural fast reflexes.

Quote:

10s, big woop...by then I could of just spammed Volley and still be more effective on that part.

Yeah but for AoE interrupt and armor ignoring AoE damage, it is worth it. Volley on its own is weak and Volley on its own doesn't interrupt.

Tyla · Mar 31, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Do you always see them do that? They dont usually hit Epidemic so maybe you just got lucky once. I tried many times but I never ever seen them hit epidemic right after BHA, they just want to volley. They also normal attack alot.

If you have a heroes build where they always hit BHA then Epidemic then Volley, you can post it here and I can try it out. As far as I have tested, they tend to use BHA then Volley rather than BHA then Epidemic.

If I need to micro manage then I am not using the hero's natural fast reflexes.

Only for a few seconds. Plus they do it quite often, and if they don't I micro.
It's easy enough.

Quote:

Yeah but for AoE interrupt and armor ignoring AoE damage, it is worth it. Volley on its own is weak and Volley on its own doesn't interrupt.

Yet even in HM, reflexes DO fail on heroes.
Plus yeah, Volley on it's own is weak. That's why I pack a hero with Splinter Weapon at 10 spec.

DarkSpirit · Mar 31, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Only for a few seconds. Plus they do it quite often, and if they don't I micro.
It's easy enough.

I see them use Volley alot more than Epidemic. You almost always need to micro to make this work the way you want it.

Trvth Jvstice · Mar 31, 2008, 02:06 PM // 14:06

D Shot and Savage Shot are plenty for interrupting on a Ranger. Use a different elite for dealing dmg. On a Ranger I prefer: D Shot - S Shot - Splinter Weapon - Barrage - Pin Down. Rangers have way too many options for dealing decent dmg to use the elite for interrupting imo.

Mesmers are usually brought for one reason: To wreak havoc on an entire mob and Boss with a full interrupt/shutdown bar.

Sage Sanctus · Apr 13, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

If you ask me both have the good points.

Rangers are meant to be a menace and apply pressure to the opposing team, and mesmers are supposed to exploit their enemies.

One bad point is that rangers arrows have flight time depending on the bows this may be high etc. Also they cannot interrupt from behind a wall for safety.

Mesmers main attirubute fast casting allows them to unleash spells alot faster than other proffesions. Also their spells have short activation times anyway(Most Dom spells). Unlike rangers they cannot be obstructed by walls etc.

At the end of the day I feel it comes down to where you are and what you will be fighting

Tyla · Apr 13, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Sanctus

One bad point is that rangers arrows have flight time depending on the bows this may be high etc.

It's not a downfall at all, you'll only be able to reflex interrupt exactly the same things.
Not only that, but you also have the oppertunity of using prediction interrupts.
The AI is easily exploited because of it's stupidity, use this stupidity to your advantage. (e.g -- Enchanted Bow runs up to you and usually hits Throw Dirt as soon as it gets close to you. You hit the interrupt right on time, and bang, no blind.)

llsektorll · Apr 13, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

ranger.... hey can keep doing it... non stop on recharge thanks to expertise....

Bront · Apr 14, 2008, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It's not a downfall at all, you'll only be able to reflex interrupt exactly the same things.
Not only that, but you also have the oppertunity of using prediction interrupts.
The AI is easily exploited because of it's stupidity, use this stupidity to your advantage. (e.g -- Enchanted Bow runs up to you and usually hits Throw Dirt as soon as it gets close to you. You hit the interrupt right on time, and bang, no blind.)

Mesmers can predict too though. It's easier for them to reflexively interrupt though.

I've been told that flight time is a good thing because it makes a ranger think. I'm still having trouble understaning how A) a Mesmer doesn't need to think, and B) how an extra delay in how an interupt happens (an extra 1/4 of a sec is a lot in interupts) could ever be a good thing.

Tyla · Apr 14, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

Mesmers can predict too though. It's easier for them to reflexively interrupt though.

Your margin of chance on an interrupt through prediction on a Mesmer is incredibly low.
And as I've said, reflex interrupts MAY be easier on a Mesmer, but you're only interrupting the same things a Ranger can on reflex, including the fact that Rangers can interrupt anything, not only spells. Also faster recharge.

blakecraw · Apr 14, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Your margin of chance on an interrupt through prediction on a Mesmer is incredibly low

Umm, actually since mesmer interrupts take 1/4 of a second, you'd only have to predict a skill 1/4 of a second before it gets cast, which makes it easier to predict interrupts with a mesmer. I think you're confusing "predicting" and "mindless spamming of the d-shot"

. It's like trying to "predict" an interrupt with meteor vs d-shot: the one with the shorter activation requires less of a look into the future, so it will be more reliable. There's nothing stopping a mesmer from saying "if I hit d-shot now, I'd interrupt a skill, so I'll wait 1/4 of a sec and then hit my interrupt!". Now, spamming savage shot is less of a waste than spamming power block, for example, so it is less penal to spam ranger interrupts, which can lead to the illusion of them being easier to predict with.

In my opinion, mesmers are better for pve because you get a buffed up [cry of frustration] which owns those pesky ele mobs, and you can safely take [power return] since nobody cares if a mob has more energy, it's gonna die in 3 seconds anyway.

Now, the skills that make mesmers viable in pve (in my mind) are [clumsiness], [ether nightmare (luxon)], and [cry of pain]. Without those two pve skills, mesmers are crapola for damage, so don't bother with mesmer heroes

Tyla · Apr 14, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakecraw

Umm, actually since mesmer interrupts take 1/4 of a second, you'd only have to predict a skill 1/4 of a second before it gets cast, which makes it easier to predict interrupts with a mesmer. I think you're confusing "predicting" and "mindless spamming of the d-shot"

. It's like trying to "predict" an interrupt with meteor vs d-shot: the one with the shorter activation requires less of a look into the future, so it will be more reliable. There's nothing stopping a mesmer from saying "if I hit d-shot now, I'd interrupt a skill, so I'll wait 1/4 of a sec and then hit my interrupt!". Now, spamming savage shot is less of a waste than spamming power block, for example, so it is less penal to spam ranger interrupts, which can lead to the illusion of them being easier to predict with.

Eh? Send me a screenshot of hitting 1/4 casts repeatedly with your Mesmer interrupts, then tell me that prediction on a Mesmer is easier.

The flight time makes it alot easier to inerrupt things, and prediction is based on 2 factors anyway, luck and observation.

And yeah, the recharge makes it less penal to interrupt, but you also have Mesmer interrupts with low recharges, such as PD.

Put it this way, interrupting on prediction with Mesmer interrupts leaves a huge margin of error (Discounting recharge) compared to Ranger interrupts, because with Ranger interrupts, you have flight time.

blakecraw · Apr 14, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The flight time makes it alot easier to inerrupt things, and prediction is based on 2 factors anyway, luck and observation

Sure, you have flight time, but the fact is a mesmer interrupt and a ranger interrupt both hit at one particular point in time; having an arrow in the air, flying toward an enemy, who is potentially about to use a skill, is no different than being a mesmer and having the interrupt key halfway pushed on your keyboard (the only difference being you can change your mind as a mesmer, which I see as a bonus). A mesmer can place his interrupt so that it lands at the same time as a ranger's flying arrow, so I don't see how flight time itself actually helps in interrupting.

Tyla · Apr 14, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakecraw

Sure, you have flight time, but the fact is a mesmer interrupt and a ranger interrupt both hit at one particular point in time; having an arrow in the air, flying toward an enemy, who is potentially about to use a skill, is no different than being a mesmer and having the interrupt key halfway pushed on your keyboard (the only difference being you can change your mind as a mesmer, which I see as a bonus). A mesmer can place his interrupt so that it lands at the same time as a ranger's flying arrow, so I don't see how flight time itself actually helps in interrupting.

Double click another weapon in your inventory will cancel an attack skill.

DarkSpirit · Apr 14, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The flight time makes it alot easier to inerrupt things, and prediction is based on 2 factors anyway, luck and observation.

I dont see how relying on "luck" is a valid reason to makes it easier to interrupt as a ranger.

A ranger's strength for interrupting comes with the daze condition and short recharge interupts, so the ranger can spam her interrupts one way or another.

A ranger's weakness for interrupting comes in arrow flight time, line-of-sight (i.e. blocking by obstacles), dodging if BHA is shot from too far, blocking, blindness, and miss hexes.

Tyla · Apr 14, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont see how relying on "luck" is a valid reason to makes it easier to interrupt as a ranger.

Read again, luck AND observation. Either way, in PvE, things are easy to exploit to interrupt, such as Enchanted Bows for instance, when they run in towards you, they usually use Throw Dirt straight away.

Quote:

A ranger's strength for interrupting comes with the daze condition and short recharge interupts, so the ranger can spam her interrupts one way or another.

If you think a Ranger's strength comes from the Daze condition and recharge only, I think you've never played Ranger.
Not to mention D-Shot is one of the best skills in the game, if not the best.

Quote:

A ranger's weakness for interrupting comes in arrow flight time, line-of-sight (i.e. blocking by obstacles), dodging if BHA is shot from too far, blocking, blindness, and miss hexes.

Hexes aren't usually a problem for me, as I rarely see them in PvE.
Blind you say? Condition removal I say.
Blocking? You missed out Magebane Shot.
Line-of-sight? I herd positioning wuz gud.

Apart from standing on bridges to be immune to projectiles through obstruction, there you have it. That rarely happens anyway in most areas.

DarkSpirit · Apr 14, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Read again, luck AND observation. Either way, in PvE, things are easy to exploit to interrupt, such as Enchanted Bows for instance, when they run in towards you, they usually use Throw Dirt straight away.

Throw Dirt is not the only skill that blinds.

Quote:

If you think a Ranger's strength comes from the Daze condition and recharge only, I think you've never played Ranger.
Not to mention D-Shot is one of the best skills in the game, if not the best.

If you are already using BHA for the daze, like you have mentioned in your previous posts, then D-Shot would just be a waste. The additional recharge of D-Shot does not trigger on a dazed target. The daze interruption would take effect before D-Shot.

Quote:

Hexes aren't usually a problem for me, as I rarely see them in PvE.
Blind you say? Condition removal I say.
Blocking? You missed out Magebane Shot.
Line-of-sight? I herd positioning wuz gud.

Apart from standing on bridges to be immune to projectiles through obstruction, there you have it. That rarely happens anyway in most areas.

I am aware of condition removal blah blah blah. Nobody is saying that a Ranger's weaknesses make it impossible for a Ranger to interrupt. Nevertheless, they are still weaknesses that ought to be called out during this discussion.