Curse

Fay Vert · Dec 07, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

We are constantly told that rangers are not for damage, they are for utility. Interrupting is one of the vital utilities that a ranger brings, but the last page of discussion is basically saying its pointless bringing an interrupt at all. So is there any point in having a ranger in GW?

But if there is a point to a ranger interrupting, and you brought two, the you would obviously bring DShot and Savage, if you only brought one, which would you take? I know which I would bring. You could go BHA, but then you are just gimped into single caster shutdown duties.

upier · Dec 07, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

We are constantly told that rangers are not for damage, they are for utility. Interrupting is one of the vital utilities that a ranger brings, but the last page of discussion is basically saying its pointless bringing an interrupt at all. So is there any point in having a ranger in GW?

Izzy says that casters are meant to fill support roles.
Yet in PvE - we have the AP nukers which deal insane amounts of damage. Things don't work in PvE the way that they should.
You're gimping yourself if you aren't using the ranger as a damage dealer. It might not be as good as other options - but that doesn't mean you should give up on decent damage in favor of options that the ranger excels at - but are irrelevant in PvE.

Anyone saying that rangers shouldn't do damage in PvE - fails at PvE.
Because PvE is a damage-fest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, your point was that if one can't interrupt 10 .5 sec casts in a row then D-Shot wasn't the skill for them.

Suppose there's a 80% chance to hit the skill. When you are required to hit it twice in a row, the chance of doing so successfully is reduced to 64%, with four times it's 41% and at ten times it's down to 11%. D-Shot removes the need to interrupt multiple times which gives it a better chance of success and that makes it the better choice. Only the mythical ranger who can interrupt with a 100% success rate does not benefit from D-Shot.

So, your statement was wrong. In a situation where you were required to interrupt a skill multiple times in a row D-Shot's disabling effect makes it the superior choice.

Now apply this to PvE.
You want to interrupt the skill of choice - 80% vs. 80%. (S-Shot VS. D-Shot).
And then comes the tricky part. The part that makes PvE special.
The foe dies.
You move onto the next target.
You want to interrupt the skill of choice - 80% vs. 0%. (S-Shot VS. D-Shot).
Because D-shot is still recharging.

And if you do hit - you get very sweet added damage when hitting things with S-Shot.

Fay Vert · Dec 07, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Anyone saying that rangers shouldn't do damage in PvE - fails at PvE.

QFT, and yet they all come out of the woodwork when anyone starts a thread about increasing ranger DPS.

MegaVolti · Dec 07, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Rangers can just as well play an Ebon Dust blinder with Volley. No damage and no fail at PvE because blind rocks everywhere (as long as you aren't playing tank'n'spank).

Interrupts are far from useless in PvE. But if you can have interrupt + damage (S-Shot) or just interrupt (D-Shot) I know what I prefer.

The Meth · Dec 07, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, your point was that if one can't interrupt 10 .5 sec casts in a row then D-Shot wasn't the skill for them.

Suppose there's a 80% chance to hit the skill. When you are required to hit it twice in a row, the chance of doing so successfully is reduced to 64%, with four times it's 41% and at ten times it's down to 11%. D-Shot removes the need to interrupt multiple times which gives it a better chance of success and that makes it the better choice. Only the mythical ranger who can interrupt with a 100% success rate does not benefit from D-Shot.

So, your statement was wrong. In a situation where you were required to interrupt a skill multiple times in a row D-Shot's disabling effect makes it the superior choice.

Umm... no? First off, no way you have an 80% chance to hit the skill. I might give you 25% if you are lucky.

NOTHING gives Dshot a "better chance of success". If you miss the 75% of times you use it that means 75% of times Savage Shot was better. My point is if you want Dshot to be useful you have to ACTUALLY HIT THE SKILL. 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 times or the skill is just not performing. If you have a 25% chance to make the hit then you have a 75% chance to miss and have a wasted skill slot the entire battle + a lower damage attack. You seem to be under the impression that Dshot's effect matters in PvE. Here's a hint: it doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It's this 'priority skill' that determines if a target is 'priority target' and once this priority skill is disabled the critter that carries it is no longer are priority target allowing your team to focus firepower on another target. This allows you to kill faster and more smoothly.

No, it doesn't allow you to kill faster and more smoothly. Killing enemies fast allows you to kill faster and more smoothly.

I'm still waiting for someone to post a healing or protective skill that is both worth interrupting and interruptable. So far the list is: [Aegis]

Tyla · Dec 07, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Rangers are a utility class that deals some damage of its own. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to do damage unless your build is completely built on defensive utility. For example, Elementalists aren't really damage dealers, yet they can still deal damage while providing that utility. Stoning comes into this equation. It can be used offensively and defensively. D-Shot is pretty much the same way, but in my experiences in PvE I've found that there aren't many things suitable to be on my bar. In other words, it's one of those things you look at and think "might as well, it can help me still". The only difference is that Stoning is more powerful and can be used on priority targets. D-Shot, on the other hand should be used on enemies that could cause you slight disruption in your teams abilities.

Amy Awien · Dec 07, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Umm... no? First off, no way you have an 80% chance to hit the skill. I might give you 25% if you are lucky.

Whenever you need to interrupt a skill twice, or more, in a row, D-Shot > S-Shot, whatever the exact chance may be. Given a chance P on a successful interrupt, the chance to interrupt successfully N times with S-Shot is P^N, with D-Shot it is P. For P<1 and N>1 it follows that P > P^N. Always.

Quote:

You seem to be under the impression that Dshot's effect matters in PvE. Here's a hint: it doesn't.

We've just been discussing a situation where it matters a lot, interrupting multiple times in a row. You can attempt to interrupt it 2, 3, 4 or more times in a row with S-Shot, while you'd only need one successful hit with D-Shot. In such cases, D-Shot > S-Shot.

Quote:

... a healing or protective skill ...

That is plain silly, why restrict it to heal and prot? AoE damage will scatter your H&H and while they try to run out of the AoE they aren't doing any damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And then comes the tricky part. The part that makes PvE special. The foe dies. You move onto the next target.

The tricky part is understanding that interrupts allow you to to control one (or more) foe(s) while another is beaten up.

The Meth · Dec 07, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Whenever you need to interrupt a skill twice, or more, in a row, D-Shot > S-Shot, whatever the exact chance may be. Given a chance P on a successful interrupt, the chance to interrupt successfully N times with S-Shot is P^N, with D-Shot it is P. For P<1 and N>1 it follows that P > P^N. Always.

Now you are just posting worthless shit. I was talking about the chance to interrupt just _1_ skill, not multiple skills in a row. There is no way in hell you have an 80% chance of hitting .5s skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

We've just been discussing a situation where it matters a lot, interrupting multiple times in a row. You can attempt to interrupt it 2, 3, 4 or more times in a row with S-Shot, while you'd only need one successful hit with D-Shot. In such cases, D-Shot > S-Shot.

Except, Dshot has a chance to fail. Add that in and consider the chance for Dshot to interrupt nothing while Sshot interrupts 1 skill, and it all balances out. Also, you should NEVER have to interrupt more then 1 time anyway. That's because the enemy should be dead, unless your team sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That is plain silly, why restrict it to heal and prot? AoE damage will scatter your H&H and while they try to run out of the AoE they aren't doing any damage.

Pro Tip: To avoid AoE, don't stand together. Then the chance that one or two henchies MIGHT be scattered by a spell that MIGHT be cast and which you MIGHT be able to interrupt is almost nil. Not to mention that Savage shot is better because any of those skills have a huge ass recharge time already so you should just do the extra damage and kill them. Other then that all damage related skills against you are irrelevant because I assume your team is good enough not to die. The only things that matter are what stops your damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The tricky part is understanding that interrupts allow you to to control one (or more) foe(s) while another is beaten up.

What does controlling a foe help you with? You still have to spend time killing it after beating up the other in either case. I would rather have 2 players actively killing 2 foes quickly then 1 player killing 1 foe and another player just rendering another foe harmless and killing it much slower. Focus fire and KILL priority targets and their spells are meaningless in the first place. Considering the half cast time if there is some skill that you actually need to prevent from casting you are going to be bringing BHA anyway.

snaek · Dec 07, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by amy awien

We've just been discussing a situation where it matters a lot, interrupting multiple times in a row. You can attempt to interrupt it 2, 3, 4 or more times in a row with S-Shot, while you'd only need one successful hit with D-Shot. In such cases, D-Shot > S-Shot.

no...because in most cases each target will need only 1 or 2 interupts before they die
whether its dshot or savage shot or disrupting shot or wutever

dshot would be ideal if u let monsters live past +10s
(usually only boss monsters, or if ur team jus has no dmg wutsoever)
savage shot would be ideal if u let monsters die under -10s

the only times i'd consider bringing dshot in pve is if
1) i want a 2nd interrupt on my bar (in most cases i actually do usually have both)
2) my bar cant handle the energy of spamming savage shot (unlikely since rangers have expertise...but u never kno)

Bobby2 · Dec 07, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

We've just been discussing a situation where it matters a lot, interrupting multiple times in a row.

As pointed out many times before, this situation does (should) not exist in PvE.

-deleted what a shame-

Amy Awien · Dec 07, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Now you are just posting worthless shit. I was talking about the chance to interrupt just _1_ skill, not multiple skills in a row.

We were talking about multiple interrupts at the start of this particular part of the conversation:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

I can't interrupt 10 .5 skills in a row, I'm not consistent enough ...

Well, if you can't interrupt .5s skills consistently then Dshot is definitely not a good skill for you. ...

Quote:

... There is no way in hell you have an 80% chance of hitting .5s skills.

I agree, but the number is arbitrary, pick 25%, or 10%, the math is still correct, for P<1 and N>1 it follows that P > P^N.

Quote:

Pro Tip: To avoid AoE, don't stand together. Then the chance that one or two henchies MIGHT be scattered

Henchmen are controlled by one flag, and they stand around that flag well within nearby range of each other. AoE will scatter them, even if just one or two, and them running around will increase the time it takes to kill. The effect may not be large, or even important, but the effect of one more damage bow attack is just as small.

Quote:

... Savage shot is better because any of those skills have a huge ass recharge time already ...

Plenty of annoying skills that have short recharge. D-Shot takes care of them.

Quote:

Other then that all damage related skills against you are irrelevant because I assume your team is good enough not to die.

That's a point. But I like to take them down clean and quickly

Quote:

... Focus fire and KILL priority targets ...

... one at a time?

Why use a second grade tactic when there is a better one available? You overestimate the offense of a single character, one char disabling the offense of a second (and third) foe is better then the one char increasing the offense by 1/6 or 1/5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

As pointed out many times before, this situation does (should) not exist in PvE.

Well off course not, D-Shot prevents it from occurring

Dmitri3 · Dec 08, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

I don't know why you guys are still arguing about D-Shot.

Everyone takes it (or ignores it) for their own reasons. Personally, when I take the said skill in PvE, it's for training myself to interrupt better. Even if I miss 10 spells but get the last one, and not by just being lucky, the skill did it's job for me. As for energy, if I really didn't care about it at all, I'd take "You Move Like a Dwarf!" over other interrupts any day (assuming foes can be KD'ed).

It's like discussing what is better to use, pencil or a pen... when both will do their job the same. There are ups and downs, but nothing too significant.

And in the spirit of the thread: if you don't agree with me, you're all idiots and don't know anything about game and should get a life!

P.S. I bet some people will take the last part of my post seriously and start a flaming effort on my person.

The Meth · Dec 08, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

We were talking about multiple interrupts at the start of this particular part of the conversation:
I agree, but the number is arbitrary, pick 25%, or 10%, the math is still correct, for P<1 and N>1 it follows that P > P^N.

No, we were talking about a SINGLE interrupt, because a SINGLE interrupt is all you need to win. We aren't considering sets of interrupts because there should never be a time an enemy actually needs to be interrupted more then once (they are dead). And even if we were, you have to take into account the fact that if you fail with the first distracting shot you also fail with the next one because it wont even be recharged by then (whereas it would with savage) so your math is still irrelevant even if we are talking about sets of interrupts. The only time distracting shot would pull ahead in effectiveness (not even considering Sshot's damage boost, just straight interruption) is when the disable is given the full 20s to run its course. In which case your team sucks.

The only, ONLY reason I ever mentioned 10 interrupts in a row is for someone to prove to me that they could interrupt .5s skills. On no enemy should you ever need to use an interrupt more then once, they should be dead long before it recharges (excluding bosses). Get that through your head please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Henchmen are controlled by one flag, and they stand around that flag well within nearby range of each other. AoE will scatter them, even if just one or two, and them running around will increase the time it takes to kill. The effect may not be large, or even important, but the effect of one more damage bow attack is just as small.

I missed the part that says where henchman are contributing damage. There are, like, 2 henchmen in the entire game that could do half the damage of a hero or a player, the rest might do one fourth. 2 hench healers + 2 hench fluff and you are fine. Even disregarding that any kind of AoE enemy is weak enough to go down in 5 seconds, so savage shot is still better because you do more damage. Or just use pain inverter and kill them instantly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Plenty of annoying skills that have short recharge. D-Shot takes care of them.

Killing the enemies takes care of them quicker, and doesn't rely on the player being the best interrupter in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Why use a second grade tactic when there is a better one available? You overestimate the offense of a single character, one char disabling the offense of a second (and third) foe is better then the one char increasing the offense by 1/6 or 1/5.

Disabling (offense) doesn't help you kill faster. Increasing the damage output of the team by 1/6th definitely does. How come a second grader can see that but you can't?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well off course not, D-Shot prevents it from occurring

No, my splinter weapon buffed barrage or GDW buffed warrior do that. Permanently too.

Amy Awien · Dec 08, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

No, we were talking about a SINGLE interrupt

No, we were talking multiple interrupts (even if 10 is overdone). And it's on short recharge skills that D-Shot shines, even when your team kills quickly.

Quote:

The only time distracting shot would pull ahead in effectiveness ... is when the disable is given the full 20s to run its course.

No, it's more effective even when it prevents you from having to repeat the interrupt only once.

Quote:

The only, ONLY reason I ever mentioned 10 interrupts in a row is for someone to prove to me that they could interrupt .5s skills.

Well, no, you claimed that if one couldn't reliable interrupt multiple times then D-Shot was most certainly not the skill of choice. You are wrong about that.

Quote:

On no enemy should you ever need to use an interrupt more then once

Indeed, and D-Shot ensures you will not have to.

Quote:

I missed the part that says where henchman are contributing damage.

They contribute more then an extra attack skill on your ranger's bar.

Quote:

Disabling (offense) doesn't help you kill faster.

Yes it does, it keeps you team doing their job and thus helps them to kill faster.

upier · Dec 08, 2008, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

I don't know why you guys are still arguing about D-Shot.

Everyone takes it (or ignores it) for their own reasons. Personally, when I take the said skill in PvE, it's for training myself to interrupt better. Even if I miss 10 spells but get the last one, and not by just being lucky, the skill did it's job for me. As for energy, if I really didn't care about it at all, I'd take "You Move Like a Dwarf!" over other interrupts any day (assuming foes can be KD'ed).

It's like discussing what is better to use, pencil or a pen... when both will do their job the same. There are ups and downs, but nothing too significant.

I feel that we did quite well in discussing what the D-Shot's weaknesses and advantages are. And that was the point - to look at the skill from a slightly less clouded perspective.

grim lavamancer joe · Dec 10, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

defensive skills
[orison of healing]
[spirit light]
[word of healing]
[resurrection signet]
[healing hands]
[flesh of my flesh]
[resurrection chant]
[aegis]
[life bond]
[defensive anthem]
[restoration]

offensive skills
[searing flames]
[mind freeze]
[mind shock]
[savannah heat]
[meteor shower]
[meteor]
{need I continue?}

now lets state some standards:
1.) all creatures must stop to cast a spell
2.) all non-instant skills have an animation
3.) monsters like to spam healing skills on recharge
4.) mobs in hard mode do NOT instantly pop in 5 seconds. (do not argue this as everyone knows its true)

occasionally you run into situations like this this and god forbid you actually get a situation where THIS SHIT happens. When stuff doesn't die because you can't overpower mobs one at a time, come see distracting shot

The Meth · Dec 10, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

defensive skills
[orison of healing] - .5 second or less cast
[spirit light] - .5 second or less cast
[word of healing] - .5 second or less cast
[resurrection signet] - lol, nothing uses this
[healing hands] - not even interruptable in NM
[flesh of my flesh] - almost nothing uses it. For those that do, simply kill the healers first. Like you should already be doing.
[resurrection chant] - same as flesh of my flesh
[aegis] - YES OMG YES. The only skill I could find worth Dshotting. Sshot is still better though, you shouldn't need the disable
[life bond] - lol
[defensive anthem] - .5s or less cast
[restoration] - you are joking right?

offensive skills
[searing flames] - enemies using this die as soon as you look at them. Don't stand ontop of each other for the 5 seconds it takes to wipe them.
[mind freeze] - .5s or less cast, not worth interrupting anyway
[mind shock] - same as mind freeze
[savannah heat] - rendered useless by any character that has legs
[meteor shower] - Same as savannah heat, not to mention Sshot is WAY better if you needed to interrupt it
[meteor] - see meteor shower
{need I continue?}

please continue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

now lets state some standards:
1.) all creatures must stop to cast a spell
2.) all non-instant skills have an animation
3.) monsters like to spam healing skills on recharge
4.) mobs in hard mode do NOT instantly pop in 5 seconds. (do not argue this as everyone knows its true)

1.) True, but I don't see how you are trying to make that point relevant.
2.) Same as 1.
3.) Except you have no idea which of the 3 or 4 heals they will use, or if they will wand. The casts are mad fast under .5s ones so you can't check if you are interrupting the right thing. Sshot is way better.
4.) No, but half the enemy mob should be down by 10 seconds. If you take more then around 20-25 seconds to kill any non boss mob you are failing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

occasionally you run into situations like this this and god forbid you actually get a situation where THIS SHIT happens. When stuff doesn't die because you can't overpower mobs one at a time, come see distracting shot

Hmm, looking at your nifty mesmer build in that picture there I think I see why you are having problems killing things.

Bobby2 · Dec 10, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

occasionally you run into situations like this this

So Auron failed. Big deal

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

and god forbid you actually get a situation where THIS SHIT happens. When stuff doesn't die because you can't overpower mobs one at a time, come see distracting shot

[email protected]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

4.) mobs in hard mode do NOT instantly pop in 5 seconds. (do not argue this as everyone knows its true)

kso, 6 seconds

Tyla · Dec 10, 2008, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Meth, keep in mind the Ether Whatsumacalledits have Res Sig.

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by grim lavamancer joe

occasionally you run into situations like this this and god forbid you actually get a situation where THIS SHIT happens. When stuff doesn't die because you can't overpower mobs one at a time, come see distracting shot

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a boss somewhere in the Echovald Forest that spawns with 5-6 healers split heavily every time? It's pretty f*cking stupid when you're actually doing it, but after a few runs through (H/H, it was the last mob, I think I was running Sabway) it was managed. I must say, during that Distracting Shot had little impact on the situation. I don't think I even hit Spirit Light once during that, so I was really relying on my BHA the entire time. The reason for that is because I'd still have had 4 more to deal with, and I think that the disable from D-Shot is halved in Hard Mode aswell. I really only got lucky.

Still though, I believe D-Shot pulled me through a few situations, and that to me really is one of the only things that can be properly fueled on a Ranger bar. I really believe that a lot of Ranger skills are pretty much worthless in PvE, so I've got an incredibly free bar. But when I try to bring certain things into it, I get little effect because of my energy limitations, and I'd much rather spend my elite on Barrage instead of PrepShot. So yeah, D-Shot might as well be on your bar because every now and then it pulls you through an area faster.

grim lavamancer joe · Dec 10, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

1.) True, but I don't see how you are trying to make that point relevant.
2.) Same as 1.
3.) Except you have no idea which of the 3 or 4 heals they will use, or if they will wand. The casts are mad fast under .5s ones so you can't check if you are interrupting the right thing. Sshot is way better.
4.) No, but half the enemy mob should be down by 10 seconds. If you take more then around 20-25 seconds to kill any non boss mob you are failing.

1. if you dont know when to interupt you fail, either roll something that cant interupt or uninstall the game
2. see point 1
3. 9 out of 10 times the monsters will cast something worth interupting. if your going to argue with the bitch slap of "you cant check", I'll bitchslap you right back with "stop being lazy and just do it."
4. doesnt always work that way.

Quote:

[Orison of Healing]
- .5 second or less cast
~see point 1 ( TRY to learn how to interupt well.)
[Spirit Light]
- .5 second or less cast
~see point 1 ( TRY to learn how to interupt well.)

[Word of Healing]
~see point 1 ( TRY to learn how to interupt well.)

[Resurrection Signet]
- lol, nothing uses this
~apperantly someone has never done slaver's exile

[Healing Hands]
- not even interruptable in NM
~see point 1 ( TRY to learn how to interupt well/although this one is a toughie)

[Flesh of My Flesh]
- almost nothing uses it. For those that do, simply kill the healers first. Like you should already be doing
~this monster comes in packs of 3-4 good luck with that

[Resurrection Chant]
- same as flesh of my flesh
~Charr in the EOTN campaign bring this. and its not fun

[Aegis]
- YES OMG YES. The only skill I could find worth Dshotting. Sshot is still better though, you shouldn't need the disable
~true, but its still worth interupting.

[Life Bond]
- lol
~Monsters in the fissure of woe carry this. they come in packs of 2 or more and have spell breaker, so they dont die very easily

[Defensive Anthem]
- .5s or less cast
~see point 1 ( TRY to learn how to interupt well.)

[Restoration]
- you are joking right?
~ good luck beating the with beating the deep these guys never die

Quote:

[Searing Flames]
- enemies using this die as soon as you look at them. Don't stand ontop of each other for the 5 seconds it takes to wipe them.
~if your using heros, your going to be standing on top of each other. otherwise you are right

[Mind Freeze]
- .5s or less cast, not worth interrupting anyway
~see point 1 ( TRY to learn how to interupt well.)
~I heard ice imps like to combo it with maelstrom, your comments?

[Mind Shock]
- same as mind freeze
~see point 1 ( TRY to learn how to interupt well.)
~it still hurts like a bitch when you get hit by it

[Savannah Heat]
- rendered useless by any character that has legs
~because we all know that heros will instantly run from it. /sarcasm

[Meteor Shower]
- Same as savannah heat, not to mention Sshot is WAY better if you needed to interrupt it
~because we all know that heros will instantly run from it. /sarcasm

[Meteor]
- see meteor shower
~considering it only drops once, not really.

im not going to bother with another list of skills because i dont wanna make it even longer then that last one. but for a run down of useful skills to interupt click HERE