Curse

Joker · May 13, 2009, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Ok I made a pvp char to test ways to get enemy AI to actually attack your pet INSTEAD of making a b-line for you.

I went to the isle of the nameless and ran this test against the master of hammers.

Full beastmasters armor loaded out with Runes of vigour/vitale and one superior BM rune on a tamers mask.

16 BM
12 prot prayers

Charm animal
comfort animal
vital blessing
random enchantment 1
random enchantment 2
symbiosis

Pet - elder wolf

To get a baseline I ran up to the MoH and sure enough he attacked me first and didnt seem to want to break agro despite my wolf trying to chew his face off.

Second I tried it with just vital blessing. Got the same result.....

Third I set up symbiosis and cast all three enchantments on myself, giving me around 1200 HP and ran the test again. Same result as the first time.....

EDIT
I would like to add that I had no health modifying enchantments on for test 4 or 5
EDIT

Fourth test I ran was with a caster hero set to passive.

When I ran up to the MoH he went STRAIGHT for the squishy

Finally I cast vital blessing on my hero and get this........... The MoH went STRAIGHT for me!

I thought AI target selection was based on who; out of the avaliable targets has the lowest health/armor, but it appears pets are an exception to this rule.

paddymew · May 13, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Wouldn't you? This test could almost certainly have been done in RA.

Joker · May 13, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Wouldn't you? This test could almost certainly have been done in RA.

Wouldn't I what? And if by RA you mean Random Arena I fail to see how fighting human players would tell me anything about how enemy AI handles target selection.

BrettM · May 13, 2009, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Did you try target-locking the pet on the foe? The pet should run in while you're still at bow range, giving the baddie nothing to aggro on *but* the pet, assuming you don't attack or move into aggro range until the pet begins attacking.

In my experience the enemy AI does seem to put a low priority on pets, but this is not a bad thing if you're actually out to do damage using a full BM bar. The pet rarely takes any damage and requires little healing. If you just want pets to use as meat shields, it doesn't seem to work so well.

wilebill · May 13, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Joker, I don't think relative health/armor is all that matters.

Where does the first attack come from? The AI is going to put first priority on what just attacked it? Seems that way to me. I have not run any tests. Just my impression. If your curses hero then drops SS on the target, it may decide that the curses hero is a worse threat, or decide to go after your healers. So, I think it is threat and damage it is reacting to as the combat begins.

I think the remark on RA implies that the AI is doing what is "reasonable," going after the controller of the pet, who is also likely to be the source of future heavy damage or conditions. But AI's are not reasonable, so the comparison with human players doesn't mean anything.

Another "seems to me" is that if you drop a trap before starting combat, any sort of trap, the AI melee is less likely to rush you. We will presume that the AI could see or hear you drop the trap; not that the AI has special knowledge or cheats or anything like that!

If the pet cripples the target or knocks it down, it is more likely to shift its attention to the pet. Usually easier said than done.

I play another online game with a character much like a Ranger. In that game it is possible to tell the pet to attack first and hold your fire until the pet has aggro. But even there, heavy damage early on from your bow or gun is likely to break aggro and summon the target into your face. There too it seems damage is high on the AI list of things to react to. Along with healers and spell casters.

Kiva-chan · May 13, 2009, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joker

I ran up to the MoH and sure enough he attacked me first and didnt seem to want to break agro despite my wolf trying to chew his face off.

This.

If you want AI to attack your pet...
Send your pet in first.

I just had a level 20 hearty pet tank the master of hammers while I was naked
(save for a headpiece with one superior rune for -75HP) to make sure there were no exceptions. =P

Joker · May 13, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Did you try target-locking the pet on the foe? The pet should run in while you're still at bow range, giving the baddie nothing to aggro on *but* the pet, assuming you don't attack or move into aggro range until the pet begins attacking.

In my experience the enemy AI does seem to put a low priority on pets, but this is not a bad thing if you're actually out to do damage using a full BM bar. The pet rarely takes any damage and requires little healing. If you just want pets to use as meat shields, it doesn't seem to work so well.

I always try that and in my expirence the MOB will usually find me to be a much more attractive target.

The problem is that because of the low priority enemy AI puts on pets, they are almost useless to help tank high level NPC's

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiva-chan

This.

If you want AI to attack your pet...
Send your pet in first.

I just had a level 20 hearty pet tank the master of hammers while I was naked
(save for a headpiece with one superior rune for -75HP) to make sure there were no exceptions. =P

Yes I am well aware it IS very possible. [skill]Strike as one[/skill] works wonderfully for this, but my main point is that enemy AI treats pets differently than other targets! The developers have actually seen fit to make it HARDER for pets to fufill a tanking role. There is no way enemy AI should attack a AR 80 1200 HP character over a 480 HP AR 80 pet! the pet is obviously a much softer target!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

Joker, I don't think relative health/armor is all that matters.

Where does the first attack come from? The AI is going to put first priority on what just attacked it? Seems that way to me. I have not run any tests. Just my impression. If your curses hero then drops SS on the target, it may decide that the curses hero is a worse threat, or decide to go after your healers. So, I think it is threat and damage it is reacting to as the combat begins.

I think the remark on RA implies that the AI is doing what is "reasonable," going after the controller of the pet, who is also likely to be the source of future heavy damage or conditions. But AI's are not reasonable, so the comparison with human players doesn't mean anything.

Another "seems to me" is that if you drop a trap before starting combat, any sort of trap, the AI melee is less likely to rush you. We will presume that the AI could see or hear you drop the trap; not that the AI has special knowledge or cheats or anything like that!

If the pet cripples the target or knocks it down, it is more likely to shift its attention to the pet. Usually easier said than done.

I play another online game with a character much like a Ranger. In that game it is possible to tell the pet to attack first and hold your fire until the pet has aggro. But even there, heavy damage early on from your bow or gun is likely to break aggro and summon the target into your face. There too it seems damage is high on the AI list of things to react to. Along with healers and spell casters.

I should also mention that I never once attacked the MoH in ANY of these tests, however my pet did. I was able to get it focused on my pet by running around while he tried to attack me and after a few seconds (and blows to the head) he swapped his attention to the wolf.

My entire point is that there is code in the game that makes it more difficult for pets to fufill a potential role. And call me crazy for having a problem with that.

Kiva-chan · May 13, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

If you want something to tank in PvE.
It has to head into the enemy by itself, then move as little as possible to avoid breaking aggro.
Pets aren't an exception to this.
They also tend to move around a lot so don't hold aggro very well...

Joker · May 13, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiva-chan

If you want something to tank in PvE.
It has to head into the enemy by itself, then move as little as possible to avoid breaking aggro.
Pets aren't an exception to this.
They also tend to move around a lot so don't hold aggro very well...

The problem I personally face with getting pets to tank is this.

1 - enemy
2 - pet
3 - you

=========Agro range=========
1.............................................2|3
==========================

Now your pet moves

=========Agro range=========
1.....................................2......3
==========================

Now the enemy moves to intercept the pet causing it to come into your agro bubble.

=========Agro range=========
..........1..................2..............3
==========================

Then the enemy bypasses the pet because the AI has you placed as a higher priority target. Even though the pet is attacking it and was the first thing to do damage.

Backing up seems to make the pet break agro and return to you, so the only thing I have found to RELIABLY work is [skill]strike as one[/skill] because the pet shadow steps to the target no movement generally occurs on the part of the enemy MoB. And since its crippled it cant really move anyway.

If pets were treated like heroes and henchmen to enemy AI then the MoB would actually focus on the pet leaving you to spam pet buffs and heal.

I will agree that in low to mid end PvE this is generally not a problem, because a little running around and the mob will foucs its attention on the pet. But when you are trying to kill hard hitting bosses....... It is a bit more of a issue.

Axel Zinfandel · May 14, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Pet/enemy AI sucking is not new news.

Satu-Wyvern · Jun 06, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I took my pet to the Norn Fighting Tournament: I stayed by the door and locked the pet:

Little Thom attacked the pet
Lucas ignored the pet
Kahmu attacked the pet
Melonni attacked the pet
Lo Sha ignored the pet
Devonna attacked the pet
Vekk ignored the pet
Warmaster Tydus ignored the pet
Cynn ignored the pet

I don't know if this helps.