Curse

Riot Narita · Aug 28, 2009, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yes, you could improve on the raw damage on that build, but focusing on chucking spears is not the optimal way to go.

A-net gave you a 33% bonus for any damage you can get out of the pet. You should abuse the hell out of it:

Use high-damage pet attacks.
Enraged Lunge @16 BM --> +70dmg (170 counting deep wound)
Brutal Strike @ 16 BM --> +49dmg / +98dmg
(yes, you should go 16 BM; rangers can stand in the back!)

Use buffs.
GDW @ max --> +27dmg
SoH @ 12 smiting (from hero) --> +28dmg
Feral Aggression @ 16 BM --> +13 dmg (though Call of Haste might be better because of the way it makes up for the AI deficiencies...)

Just using the above, you could strike for base damage + 304 (404 counting deep wound) in 2 hits. That's far more than you're going to get from spear attacks.

As for EBSoH, while it's a great skill, +27 on the pet from GDW tops +15 on you from the ward.

Yes, I forget the extra pet damage applies to +dmg. I think I might do some experiments... but before I start, do you have a working build already?

GDW is great... but I find myself avoiding it because it's a bit messy trying to keep GDW up on the pet, while tracking a particular enemy target. It helps to call the target I'm interested in, so I can switch back to it immediately after casting GDW on the pet, but still. I'm lazy :-P

I do like chucking spears at 33% IAS... 1 spear a second with any kind of buffs from heroes is nice... and so is access to some of the spammable (adrenal) spear attacks. eg. Holy Spear is FTW in some places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

EBSoH adds more when you look at it from a team perspective, but, from a team perspective, you can also rely on someone else to bring it ...

Yeah, but so often these days the team is H/H, and then I'm the only one with PvE-only skills...

wilson · Aug 28, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

1.Enraged Lunge
2.Spear of Fury
3.Blazing Spear
4.Never Rampage Alone
5.Sunspear Rebirth Signet
6.Run As One
7.Call Of Protection
8.Comfort Animal

9 (8+1) Expterise
12 (10+1+1) Beast Mastery
12 Spear Mastery

Your pet can tank (very nicely) and you and your pet deal lots of damage (Enraged Lunge + Deep Wound + Spear Of Fury).

You can run this with a vamp or ele modded spear (or whatever makes you happy) without ever running low on energy. If you bring more high energy skills, consider a zealous spear.

Blazing Spear, Run As One and Call Of Protection are optional.

Button mashing ftw.

Chthon · Aug 29, 2009, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hissy

Yes, I forget the extra pet damage applies to +dmg. I think I might do some experiments... but before I start, do you have a working build already?

Depends what you mean by "working build."
Good enough to kill hard-to-kill mobs in HM with relative efficiency? Yes.
Good enough to justify replacing a warrior/sin/para on a serious PvE team? No.
The optimal beastmaster build? Probably not. In fact, I hope not because I want something better.

My last post pretty much described the state of my current test build, but I'll add a little more detail:

Comfort, duh.
Enrage Lunge + Brutal Strike + GDW (+SoH from a hero) for damage (and KD and DW).
Scavenger Strike for energy (feeds off the DW from Enraged).
IAS is a tough call. Feral Aggression adds damage, and abuses the 33% boost. Call of Haste comes with IMS that goes a very long way towards compensating for the pet's AI problems. Right now, I'm leaning towards CoH, but I suggest testing both.
What to do with the last 2 skills is a quandary.
- What I'd really like -- since it's what the build really, really needs to compete with the other physicals -- is a way to run SY! with reasonable uptime. So far no luck.
- Interrupts work just as well at low marksmanship spec, so they're a good candidate. You've got enough energy for Savage Shot on the recharge or even Concussion Shot used judiciously.
- Call of Protection is often useful because the H+H AI seems to give the pet a super-low priority for healing. So do some human monks for that matter...
- Rez or random non-synergized PvE skills work fine too.

Do what you will with that.

Bill Clinton · Sep 06, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

So the damage looks nice, has anyone looked into creating a decent petway build now (8pets)? Two humans, six heros. Whats the best route to take? I'm thinking stuff like anthem of envy etc...
Thoughts?

Tenebrae · Sep 06, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Dunno really but take 2 copies of GFTE and some adren gain on chars who use them ..... 8 pets crit + regular hits must be somethin really cool.

AtomicMew · Sep 07, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03

I've been running/testing Strike as One pet tank build with mixed results. The big, major plus side is that a pet tank is nearly unkillable. This means that if my mininons get exploded by AoE, part of my "wall" is still up. Another big plus is that a BM hero adds two additional MoP triggers (while a normal physical only gets one). The hero gets a recurve bow and distracting shot.

As far as downsides, the build lacks utility. Even just "SYG" become far too expensive, for example. So compared to a paragon or necro. you're missing out on quite a bit of utility/party buffs.

The "best" results I've had are with a 12/11/6 split in command taking GftE.

byteme! · Sep 09, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

2 accounts.....2 humans + 6 hero monks. All 8 of bars had RoJ and a pet. SoO became a huge joke. =D

Ccat · Sep 09, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Pets useful now? Pets have always been useful. A unit that can't get DP with stupidly huge buffs and stupidly quick resses and powerful attack skills. The -33%/+33% update is just icing on the cake.

Just think about how insanely overpowered you would think Feral Aggression was if it was a Warrior skill for self use, or Call of Protection, Brutal Strike and Call of haste. The only difference is that they are not used on you but a pawn you can use at your disposal, that can't get a Death Penalty and can be ressed every 1 second with 50% health. It's a spectacularly overlooked role, and I don't know why - huge protection, huge damage, all with little consequence, little effort and massive effect.

Improvavel · Sep 09, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

It's a spectacularly overlooked role, and I don't know why - huge protection, huge damage, all with little consequence, little effort and massive effect.

Do you know when you take your level 20 character and his heroes and go destroy poor level 14 mobs and all that really matters is pure offense since the enemy blows so fast they don't have time to do anything to your party?

PvE HM is a bit like that, but you are the "lvl 14 mob".

So basically the most powerful strategy is to put an almost invincible dude (or at present an Invincible Shadow Form assassin) and have some skill that will deal huge damage fast on a group of enemies that are attacking the invincible dude.

Pets don't do any of those roles.

That is why they are overlooked.

I'm not defending the tank style of play, unfortunately, due to circumstances of the game, that is the most powerful form of play.

And if there are alternatives, they are likely reliant on PvE-only skills like SY! and TnTF! and consumables.

On the other hand, I've a lot of fun with my Spear ranger with is warthog that deals 100+ damage + deepwound.

Spartan Digz · Sep 09, 2009, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

with is warthog that deals 100

That just made my day lol! I have an old pet tank build I may bring back from the dead, may even use a spear ranger now!

Ccat · Sep 09, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Do you know when you take your level 20 character and his heroes and go destroy poor level 14 mobs and all that really matters is pure offense since the enemy blows so fast they don't have time to do anything to your party?

PvE HM is a bit like that, but you are the "lvl 14 mob".

So basically the most powerful strategy is to put an almost invincible dude (or at present an Invincible Shadow Form assassin) and have some skill that will deal huge damage fast on a group of enemies that are attacking the invincible dude.

Pets don't do any of those roles.

That is why they are overlooked.

I'm not defending the tank style of play, unfortunately, due to circumstances of the game, that is the most powerful form of play.

And if there are alternatives, they are likely reliant on PvE-only skills like SY! and TnTF! and consumables.

On the other hand, I've a lot of fun with my Spear ranger with is warthog that deals 100+ damage + deepwound.

I agree tanking with nukers is the best form of PvE HM play, but it doesn't make Discord, Sabway or Racway any less effective. They can still be used to vanquish virtually any area, and that's effective enough for me. Also, Barrage/Pet is a build that's been used forever to farm Tomb of the Primeval Kings, a place that's pretty hard to do with any Necro team builds.

When you have pets with approximately 104 armor from the update and huge of protection skills from Beast Mastery, sometimes even HM enemies can't deal sufficient damage to do damage to pets. Even if by some miracle they can get past 90 or so health a second healed from Comfort Animal the pet will then be ressed with 50% health again in a few seconds. Sounds pretty strong to me, especially since the only real problem Discordway has is nuking will be eradicated this way.

AtomicMew · Sep 09, 2009, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Pets useful now? Pets have always been useful. A unit that can't get DP with stupidly huge buffs and stupidly quick resses and powerful attack skills. The -33%/+33% update is just icing on the cake.

Just think about how insanely overpowered you would think Feral Aggression was if it was a Warrior skill for self use, or Call of Protection, Brutal Strike and Call of haste. The only difference is that they are not used on you but a pawn you can use at your disposal, that can't get a Death Penalty and can be ressed every 1 second with 50% health. It's a spectacularly overlooked role, and I don't know why - huge protection, huge damage, all with little consequence, little effort and massive effect.

Naw, it's overlooked because it's a one-dimensional role. Sure, it does lots damage with no downside, but it's also lacking. Compare to a paragon who does decent DPS (with buffs) as well as provides huge party wide block, armor boost, party wide criticals, etc etc.

Also, anything with "melee" and "hero" combined together is a downside itself because of pretty bad AI.

Tenebrae · Sep 09, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Yeah well that sounds good on paper but there is somethin that before the update left pets far away : Attack Rate. Even with 33% IAS they attack little slower than a normal melee weapon swing. Now they are more powerful so they are a viable option but far from being one of the best imo. If that update included a faster attack rate ( 1,70sec for example ) oh yes , they would be GREAT.

Ccat · Sep 09, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Sure it's a one dimensional role but I guess that makes Warrior, Assassin and Rangers one dimensional for the most part. Regardless they're still useful and still used.

Once again comparing to Sabway, there are roles in that build that only really provide damage. But it manages nonetheless. Everybody taking a support role (damage+healing) is more effective because it's not too much of a dent if someone dies, but if you're not particularly expecting anyone to die, specific roles are better than supports.

Besides, who says Monks can't be used as Beast Masters? With Selfless Spirit, Expertise isn't particularly needed especially when combined with Scavenger Strike. Also, Rangers may be Rangers but at the end of the day they have a second profession no matter how obscure that may seem. Even Warriors could heal if they wanted to.

paranon · Sep 09, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

hmmm, me is wanting to try arkfenway (spiritway) with all heroes /r with pets O.o

Improvavel · Sep 09, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

If we are talking about h/h and/or 2p+6h, a beastmaster is very decent.

The pet is another physical attacker, great for GDW (that scavenger strike allows it) and strength of honor. Additionally a pet can bypass blocks.

Sincerely I prefer the Spear over the bow for a beastmaster due to very spammable damage from the likes of Spear of Redemption (if u are in 2p+6 heroes, a N/Mo OoP+DF and SoH is great).

Tenebrae · Sep 09, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If we are talking about h/h and/or 2p+6h, a beastmaster is very decent.

The pet is another physical attacker, great for GDW (that scavenger strike allows it) and strength of honor. Additionally a pet can bypass blocks.

Sincerely I prefer the Spear over the bow for a beastmaster due to very spammable damage from the likes of Spear of Redemption (if u are in 2p+6 heroes, a N/Mo OoP+DF and SoH is great).

Dont forget KDs from hammer , yeeeee R/W rox even on pve

AtomicMew · Sep 10, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Sure it's a one dimensional role but I guess that makes Warrior, Assassin and Rangers one dimensional for the most part. Regardless they're still useful and still used.

Once again comparing to Sabway, there are roles in that build that only really provide damage. But it manages nonetheless. Everybody taking a support role (damage+healing) is more effective because it's not too much of a dent if someone dies, but if you're not particularly expecting anyone to die, specific roles are better than supports

Well, I guess if you're talking about a player assassin/warrior, I agree. I guess a player beastmaster could work similarly as well. But for heroes, I just don't see it working, for similar reasons I don't use warrior/assassin heroes (though I do agree that a BM hero is much better).

Still, I find it hard to justify in a hero/hench setting. I mean, take sabway for example, which hero would you drop for a beastmaster?

Quote:

Besides, who says Monks can't be used as Beast Masters

What would this look like? Can you post a bar please?

The Josip · Sep 10, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I'm not defending the tank style of play, unfortunately, due to circumstances of the game, that is the most powerful form of play.

In general HM and NM (I'm sure there are few exceptions) I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Maybe it's my lack of experience - whenever there's "tanking" style in PUG groups, the only noticeable thing is slower progress. On the other hand, when I play without a tank, and with any decent group, we plow through mobs. No need for "wait till I gather enemies around me... wait... im running a bit more... ok seems fine now - attack!". By that time my non-tank group already kills 2-3 mobs.

Improvavel · Sep 10, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

In general HM and NM (I'm sure there are few exceptions) I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Maybe it's my lack of experience - whenever there's "tanking" style in PUG groups, the only noticeable thing is slower progress. On the other hand, when I play without a tank, and with any decent group, we plow through mobs. No need for "wait till I gather enemies around me... wait... im running a bit more... ok seems fine now - attack!". By that time my non-tank group already kills 2-3 mobs.

General PvE NM and HM can be done with whatever while you are half asleep if you can grasp the basic concept of GW mechanics.

But "Whatever" won't increase the popularity of a build.

Additionally, a Beastmaster playing alongside a sabway/discordway/spiritway won't make a considerable difference to any half arsed build.

Builds gain popularity according to what they can accomplish in the end game areas.

Those Areas are dominated by tank-nuke builds. Some of them, like urgoz for example, can also be completed in decent times with Physical teams built around Save yourselves.

Problematic areas in some dungeons can quite easily be accomplished by positioning someone in a L shaped corner under PS+SoA and then beating the shit out of the resulting ball of enemies.

All the rest can be done with whatever.

So, in conclusion, Beast masters are inferior to SF (and warrior based) as tanks, can't deal as much AoE as Sin and warriors (or even dervishes). They have strong single target DPS, but so do Paragons while spamming party wide buffs.

That is why BM builds aren't incredible popular (and the general population won't change build and playstyle if what they using get the job done, even if in an inferior way) - I prefer them to bow builds, since they deal loads of damage and have a frantic playstyle and I love the warthog attack animation and it makes quite a racket

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Dont forget KDs from hammer , yeeeee R/W rox even on pve

Theoretical speaking I'm not sure if I'm in love with a Hammer ranger. The only knockdown I would want for PvE would be ES (which is great). Then I would bring WA and Crude Swing. FGJ would be nice for more ES. The thing is that at this point I'm not sure why I want a pet anymore. Guess I can bring NRA and CA. Probably pulverizing smash for DW.

Sincerely, if I'm going melee and I have someone to bring GDW, I would rather bring an Axe with cyclone and WA.