Curse

Tenebrae · Dec 18, 2009, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

The sheer level of inexperienced trappers in this forum makes me laugh.

<impressive amount of cheap words and things we already know>

Taking things down fast is not always the wisest option, but taking things down smart is.

Yeah sure , a ranger can still use a sword and kill things . Same like a IW mesmer but your HM game experience is making us laugh. Almost any balanced build can achieve a kill in 5-6sec (first half of the group) and 3-4secs ( for the rest ) just with NO preparation , NO time to set traps , NO tactics to block NO nothing just spam skills and watch things explode.

You want to "trap" your way in a VQ ? congratulations , but your killing ratio is BS compared to a balanced group ( not even mentioning Xway groups ... ), so if you use your traps in a balanced group 2 things can happen :
1- You are the one killing stuff so half of your team is bloody useless or just plain support roles. That has a bloody slow killing ratio .
2- You arent the one killing stuff and you are only adding half or less the damage and PvE skills to support that you should be adding to the teams effort.

If you are solo trapping or with a trappers team your killing ratio will be less slower and safer to play if done well but not even close to a balanced regular group. Seriously , stop posting things or bosses a trapper can kill because we are talking about general pve ..... its like saying BHA+Epidemic is awesome because in 5% of the game you can use it and wtfpwn ppl and help to achieve fast kills and avoid some party members deaths .

Hugh Manatee · Dec 18, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

The only time I used trap based farming was way before factions came around and I only had 3 pve slots, and no other farming characters. Even then a whirling defense based stance tank with apply poison and cyclone axe was faster. Since then I've tried trapping, it's just too slow. Even though it does blast the crap out of stuff if you can pull em all just right(and it really does blast the crap out of a lot of stuff that even tanknspank has trouble with) it takes to long to set up.

Couple things wrong with mage's assessments:

Quote:

Wasting an elite slot for Trappers Focus is one of the weakest argument you all put through. You can easily bring Mantra of Resolve by going /Me if you feel you need a more aggressive trap elite. In fact, Trappers Focus adds +2 to wilderness, so it is not a wasted elite in the first place since it has excellent synergy with the overbuild

Setting traps under mantra of resolve will 0 out your energy, even if you do manage to set the trap, you'll be in a bad spot with energy after it unless you jugle low/hi sets, Better to use a blocking cover like whirling defense but either way you'll have to give up your recharge bonus. Trapper's Focus is still pretty useless, it doesnt make you un-interrupt-able, just not easily interrupt-able(you can still get savage/D-shot ect), and the difference between +/- 2 wilderness survival is about 5-10 damage depending on the trap. Now if you know it takes exactly that much to kill an enemy, that's one thing, but otherwise, 5-10 extra damage per trap isn't worthwhile, especially when you can take other much more useful stuff.

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First, try it in a HM PvE setting properly, and then come back and report. If you don't see its usefulness, you are most likely doing it wrong.

We don't have to, you're either A: setting up the bomb so the enemies will go plooie when they are pulled to all your base or B: following a tank around at point blank range, hoping you don't draw agro while you set up, or C: Using them like you would Ward VS melee, as a safe haven if foes break through your front lines. In each case you're preforming sub optimally, A: is slow as said, both setup and cooldown, B: is dumb, you're semisquishie, you don't need to be where you'll get hit especially when you can do way more at long range and C: isn't your job unless you're in a really bad party.

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Don't be dumb and run a 25e dust trap. Throw dirt works just like a charm, and there is black power mine if you really are desperate for AoE blind. Always run a major expertise rune on headpiece.

Thing is, noone takes dust trap for the blind, they take it because it's the most damaging trap out of all of them(except maybe piercing if you get the cracked condition out), 26*5*however many you manage to echo set up. It's damage ignores armor. If you're not running the most powerful trap, you're not running a proper trapper bar. Also, The major rune, you're sacrificing health on a character that's already softish. The reason most trap groups are set up and pull style is just so they can use dual sup runes with all radiants, then hide in the AoE blind splash or behind spirits while stuff dies.

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From my experience, traps are one of the finest ways to tame the Charrs in HM. It makes vqing charr areas fun and easy, char dungeons manageable because the charrs simply suck at condition removal. It's something that a lot of players have overlooked. And their habit of sticking together like little frightened kittens makes trappings even more enjoyable....You won't know this until you try it, so try it first before you talk. There is NO NEED to pre-lay traps. You can simply rush in, lay traps and annoy the hell out of charrs.

Charr Menders have Life Sheath, Charr Flameshielders have Extinguish, Charr Avengers have Mend Body and Soul, Charr Seekers have Savage Shot and the charr blade masters have savage slash. It doesn't seem like a happy place to be setting up 1.5 cast time skills with 20+ second recharges under fire from savage shot only to do nothing when the menders sheath and shielders extinguish... Also, you could just stay back at flatbow range and interrupt stuff between spiking out char with splinter nuking or even spread more conditions with BA+apply... Why charge to adjacent range only to get whacked?

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Combined with a fevered dreams necro/mesmer, and the conditions supplied from traps (like cripple/blind), the oozes are almost permanantly dazed.

You could do that much easier with your bow attacks though, and it last way, way the heck longer then the fevered dreams daze(15+seconds VS 3seconds) Then you can AoE it yourself with epidemic.

Quote:

Traps can also take out the worm boss in Heart of Shiverpeaks without using kegs. He goes down in like 2 mins, and it laughlingly simple. Guess no one tried that too, in fact, any fleshy creature is totally at the mercy of a trapper.

No, they didn't think of that, they used touchers and lifesteal to take him down in about 10 seconds. Cynder's easy, and why waste time with the traps to cause degen when you have apply+screaming shot or burning arrow.

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In fact, traps are great in several places in UW, and taking one on a run is recommended. It renders enemies almost useless

Which is why there are trap teams, it's a slow plodding set up, but it kinda works if you have 3+ hours to kill. However an earth warder, blind bot, aegis chain ect can do pretty much the same thing a single trapper can while providing a lot of other utility. I could see taking dust trap as an emergency haven VS the attaxes and other melee types, but 1 trap doesn't make you a trapper, and as you said throw dirt does the same thing.

Quote:

Taking things down fast is not always the wisest option, but taking things down smart is.

This is sort of an oxymoron, If you successfully "take something down something fast", then you by definition have taken it down smart. Like the folk who figured out 55 monk mechanics or all those 600/smite runs, and B/P stuff, it may seem like canned cookies now but the math checks out. If you can't do thing fast, IE you lack the campaigns or skills or gear, that's one thing, or for a self imposed challenge, but willfully doing things slower and less effectively doesn't seem smart or wise in a time/reward equation...

Ugh · Dec 18, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

First, try it in a HM PvE setting properly, and then come back and report. If you don't see its usefulness, you are most likely doing it wrong.

I have, actually. They can be somewhat useful, but they aren't even close to being optimal.

Quote:

You can easily bring Mantra of Resolve by going /Me if you feel you need a more aggressive trap elite.

Mantra of Resolve is a stance (so it cancels SQ and Trapper's Speed) and it will destroy your energy.

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In fact, Trappers Focus adds +2 to wilderness, so it is not a wasted elite in the first place since it has excellent synergy with the overbuild.

Yea, that +2 damage is really worth it.

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Finally, it is a preparation and doesn't interfere with serpent's quickness at all, the only stance you should have on the bar.

SQ can't be maintained, so it's already pretty bad. And, the fact that TF is a preparation doesn't change the fact that it takes up a skill slot (bar compression becomes a problem) and it takes up and elite slot.

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Don't be dumb and run a 25e dust trap.

All other non-elite traps are terrible.

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Throw dirt works just like a charm

Adjacent range + no damage = works like a charm?

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and there is black power mine if you really are desperate for AoE blind.

Black Powder Mine isn't affected by Expertise. At 15 Expertise, Dust Trap costs the same amount of energy, adds longer-lasting blind, and adds armor-ignoring damage.

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A proper build needs no more than 45e to keep spamming traps non-stop without interruption. If you are running out of energy, you ar doing it wrong.

Unless you bring only the relatively cheap but still terrible traps, this is just incorrect.

MisterB · Dec 18, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

All other non-elite traps are terrible.

Flame Trap can be buffed with EBSoH; see my linked build. It pulses 3 times, and each pulse will have armor-ignoring damage added.

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Black Powder Mine isn't affected by Expertise. At 15 Expertise, Dust Trap costs the same amount of energy, adds longer-lasting blind, and adds armor-ignoring damage.

Black Powder Mine is OK in a spirit spam build with Summon Spirits. Trap, drop spirits, pull, run back and trap, summon, repeat. Dust is inferior for this use because you won't have the attribute points and its energy cost will be higher.

Quote:

Unless you bring only the relatively cheap but still terrible traps, this is just incorrect.

See my linked build for a solo trap bar that runs on little energy. I run that with only 30 energy with a staff to occasionally swap up to 50.

All of these points are strictly from a solo-farming trap point of view. So they are exceptions rather than the rule.

Fay Vert · Dec 18, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

The sheer level of inexperienced trappers in this forum makes me laugh.

Just a word of warning. If you know anything about the game and trappers you would know there are some people in this forum who make what you know about trapping look pathetic. The fact that you don't know these people speaks volumes.

Hyozanryu Sanada · Dec 25, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgRmfQTLYbQ

YEAH BABY!!!!!! 1337 tr4pp1ng ftw.

AtomicMew · Dec 25, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage

The sheer level of inexperienced trappers in this forum makes me laugh.

Traps are slow. It takes 2.75 seconds to lay down a trap. The highest damage trap is dust trap, doing ~125 damage.

On my sin, I can do ~200+ AoE damage in <1 sec. In the time it takes to lay down two traps, I can do ~700+ damage spamming dagger attacks. Your argument that traps allow you to play smart instead of fast is also flawed since there isn't a single area I can't beat by spamming dagger attacks with henchmen (apart from areas I can't take H/H to).

Traps are grossly underpowered compared to other methods, and are only used as gimmicky farm builds, which are, nowadays, themselves pretty outclassed by other farm builds, anyway.

Traps need a buff. They should at least be comparable to an ele nuker, which they are not. They should do 2-3x damage and not be easily rupted. They should also expire a lot faster, like ~15 seconds, so as not to encourage lame, passive play.

Fay Vert · Dec 25, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

They should also expire a lot faster, like ~15 seconds, so as not to encourage lame, passive play.

This alone would make them totally useless for anything except combat trapping. Way to rip a style of play from the game more than ANerf ever did.

AtomicMew · Dec 26, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

This alone would make them totally useless for anything except combat trapping. Way to rip a style of play from the game more than ANerf ever did.

Yeah, because laying 100 traps and spending 1 hour to do it per mob is fun, profitable and not degenerate at all. (And people complain about SF being degenerate lol).

It's a totally lame style of play that shouldn't be encouraged, especially in GW, which is an ACTION game, and where literally any mob can just be steamrolled. It might be interesting if fights had any real stakes (or maybe had some RP value), like if you died, you DIED. Instead, if you die, you just respawn, and worst case scenario, you return to outpost and just try again. You don't even lose gold or anything. DnD this is not.

Fay Vert · Dec 26, 2009, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Lots of random unconnected stuff in there!

Traps certainly need a buff, but your idea of a buff is to basically remove traps from the game. Diversity is good, diverse gameplay styles is good, homogenous skills that all do the same (but called different names for different professions) are not.

AtomicMew · Dec 26, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Lots of random unconnected stuff in there!

Traps certainly need a buff, but your idea of a buff is to basically remove traps from the game. Diversity is good, diverse gameplay styles is good, homogenous skills that all do the same (but called different names for different professions) are not.

I have no idea what you think is random and unconnected. My point was simple: if there's no real danger, there's no point in going through mobs with a lame build that requires a ton of prep time.

I don't know why exactly a battle trapper is "homogenous." Even just playing it for fun, it's obvious that a trapper plays pretty differently than any other class. It's all un-targeted PbAoE. There's shutdown combined with a little damage in a pretty decent radius. There's no other class that does what a trapper does, or even feels like a trapper.

Notorious Bob · Jan 03, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

There really is a lot of confused and irrelevant stuff being posted in this thread and most of it seems centred on peoples definition of "efficient" and "general PvE".

Is "efficient" = kills/second, drops/minute, spaniels/hour?

"general PvE" includes PuGs, H+H AND solo play.

If efficiency is kills/second then trapping is right up there. Remember that the number of foes killed is based purely in the number of mobs in the area. Normal trap sets would include 3.5 sets of the basic four traps (Dust, Spike, Flame, Barbed) or 7+ dust traps if using the Echo build.

This is enough to deliver 1000+ damage let alone a paltry 100+.

The RoK bug nerfed drop rates for all AoE killers and trapping became largely pointless as a farming method. REMEMBER pre-RoK bug, trapping Zelnehlun's spiders was as, if not more, "efficient" than raptor farming.

If you consider PuGs as the only definition of "general PvE" then trappers only had two real hang-outs - The Deep. Almost any PuG heading out into the Deep took a trapper and Thunderhead Keep (and if you don't know why a trapper is uber-effective in THK then you really don't know GW). That's just the way it was.

Right now, the way that AoE got nerfed and with the thinking that solo-play is somehow not a legitimate part of PvE, trapping has little to no advantage or utility of any other style of play.

Remember though that some peoples idea of a challenge is to use the sub-prime skills or sub-classes to play through the game.

Try farming Kephket or the griffons with a trapper build.

Go get a set of Ungues of the Oni with a trapper build.

Yes trapping got buggered up, yes it's easier to play a cookie cutter sin, but don't dismiss play styles and sub-classses or solo play just because YOU don't like them or can't play them.

They're legitimate styles of play and some of us quite like to make the game a challenge rather than just key mashing.

AtomicMew · Jan 03, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notorious Bob

If efficiency is kills/second then trapping is right up there. Remember that the number of foes killed is based purely in the number of mobs in the area. Normal trap sets would include 3.5 sets of the basic four traps (Dust, Spike, Flame, Barbed) or 7+ dust traps if using the Echo build.

Calculate how much time it takes you to setup those "3.5" sets of traps, and you'll realize how inefficient it is. I guarantee you a sin or war could do the same damage in much, much less time.

Quote:

If you consider PuGs as the only definition of "general PvE" then trappers only had two real hang-outs - The Deep. Almost any PuG heading out into the Deep took a trapper and Thunderhead Keep (and if you don't know why a trapper is uber-effective in THK then you really don't know GW). That's just the way it was.

Past tense. Pugs in the deep are now non-existent, and I doubt is even optimal nowadays. THK is no longer difficult.

maxxfury · Jan 05, 2010, 02:23 AM // 02:23

My issue with traps is that you need to take your time to prepare them and accurately pull the mobs into them.

That doesnt fit these days with the speed of other options for vanqs/missions ect.

And when general pve is as easy at it is, its all about rolling thru asap.

Unless your combat trapping, but then the other options are all still faster..or the melee are smashing up all your targets or casters spike/nuke them.

But it is fun and it is satisfying blowing them all to hell in a hail of tripwires, spikes, smoke and fire! waving your arms around shouting obsenities about their mothers!

But its just too slow these days to keep up for the bam bam bam bam style pve has become.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notorious Bob

They're legitimate styles of play and some of us quite like to make the game a challenge rather than just key mashing.

/nods @ funtimes for fun!

*doesnt count farming ect as that not 'real' pve, savvy?

Turbo Ginsu · Jan 05, 2010, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Being

Traps are fun and effective when used right, but in the general PvE meta for both group builds and farming trapping is just too slow and actually requires some skill to pull off effectively.

Last I've bothered to use traps was for farming stygians in DoA in HM as a R/A using By Ural's Hammer to increase the damage. Though it's still not as simple and quick as the old trap build with EW.

Traps probably could do with a nice buff on the PvE side of things, as in PvP it would only cause grief, especially on certain maps...

I love trapping. I don't care about it taking slightly longer than other builds while 'm doing it. There are other ways to farm if I need money, which generally, I don't. That video looks like you're having a hell of a lot of fun, and is making me itch so hard to play my ranger this second that I can barely contain myself, lol.

This leads me to my question, hehe. Would it be possible for you to link your build, or pm it to me, as your description of the skills and attributes used on the youtube page cuts off about half way.

Thanks heaps for re-igniting my passion for trapping, well, not so much reigniting, more a case of getting me off of my lazy ass to go and have some good old-fashioned fun.

Warvic · Jan 05, 2010, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Make it 1/4 cast time just like ritu spirits =] Then you can actually use it wisely, for snaring people who follow you etc.

Notorious Bob · Jan 05, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warvic

Make it 1/4 cast time just like ritu spirits =] Then you can actually use it wisely, for snaring people who follow you etc.

Despite "Ninja" being used to describe path-trapping, it's more likely a sub-class of the Assassin and not a Ranger

Although there is something to say for increasing the duration and impact of skills like Snare to make them aggravating to some of the more obnoxious cookie cutter builds. (Although outside the scope of "general PvE").

Mistical miss · Jan 11, 2010, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Theres one bit of PvE where I still really enjoy trapping. Urgoz. Those areas where all the wolves come at you through a portal

. Thats awesome, you just drop one of each trap and they are all snared/knocked down for a few seconds giving your team the chance to aoe-nuke the hell out of them. And any wolves running free are blinded and crippled so they are quite harmless.
That Ebon battle standard of honor + By urals hammer does kick up the damage a lot.

superraptors · Jan 11, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

traps are definitely underrated, however there are far too many mobs that u can actually get close to without being hit / rupted so its pretty much useless unless ur preparing a trap bomb and pulling things into it which is time wastign

PuppyEater · Jan 13, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

The fact that your team could be on to mob B by the time you set up your traps for mob A in the majority of the game shows their "usefulness"

They can potentially wtfpwn but good luck in getting anyone but dedicated guildies to wait for you to set them up...