Curse

Ugh · Feb 24, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

MaaKotKa, I like the way you have laid out all the numbers here, but the comparison isn't valid because your Glass Arrows build uses Asuran Scan and the Barrage build does not. These two builds need to be using the same damage buffs if you are going to compare them properly. Obviously Asuran Scan is going to add a lot of damage to the Glass Arrows build (and Asuran Scan favors a single-target spike build besides).

His test wouldn't be valid without Asuran Scan because no one uses a Glass Arrows build without it.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 25, 2010, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

His test wouldn't be valid without Asuran Scan because no one uses a Glass Arrows build without it.

i'm not arguing with that, it makes perfect sense to use Asuran Scan.
What I'm saying is that if you compare two builds and one of them has Asuran Scan while the other doesn't, the one with Asuran Scan has got a huge advantage.

Anyways... I think we have said all there is to say on this thread.

AtomicMew · Feb 25, 2010, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

been there done that... but this is not about you or me, it's about Ranger DPS. If you don't have anything to say on this topic then we should drop it.

I'm not the one who brought it up. You're the one who tried to talk down, saying "talk to me when you have LVQ." Lol, buddy.

Quote:

IATS

Wrong. IATS gives same DPS in a long term in any build that doesn't increase +damage from IATS. Barrage just makes those 8 activations to come faster, you still have to wait its recharge. Any build using Asuran Scan actually benefits more from IATS than barrage build because of Scan boosts IATS damage also.

Quote:

too bad that the math does not support this. please get a calculator and prove what you are saying if you can.

Non-sequitar, your math is wrong. I've posted "math" showing that a single-target spiker can at the very least, keep up with a two target barrage. The reason I don't post more math is, the math is very, very complicated. For starters, you need builds. I'm not convinced the optimal single-target spiker build has been discussed so far.

Then there are other conditions such as:

1) Do we require energy sustainability?

2) Should we require SY? (For H/H, ostensibly, we should. But if we don't, that's actually a BIG boon for the single target spiker, since we get access to things like zealous vow.)

3) Do we disallow suboptimal hero builds/skills? (If we allow shit like winnowing and orders in H/H, then I'll also add BiP to the list so then I don't have to worry about energy and I can go 16 marks/12 conjure flame or something else entirely unrealistic in a real game setting.)

Until there is a consensus on which conditions we require, it's sheer folly to try to extrapolate exactly where the tipping point is, other than "it's bigger than 2."

MaaKotka · Feb 25, 2010, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

MaaKotKa, I like the way you have laid out all the numbers here, but the comparison isn't valid because your Glass Arrows build uses Asuran Scan and the Barrage build does not. These two builds need to be using the same damage buffs if you are going to compare them properly. Obviously Asuran Scan is going to add a lot of damage to the Glass Arrows build (and Asuran Scan favors a single-target spike build besides).

Calculations should be made using real builds. There is no point comparing builds made just for calculations. Most barrage builds don't use Asuran Scan so that is why I didn't include it in barrage calculations. If you are interested what Asuran Scan does for Barrage dps be my guest and do calculations with it. My calculations favor Glass Arrows a bit, mostly because I didn't include down time in shooting which comes from reapplying Asuran Scan, Glass Arrows and from some energy issues what Glass Arrows may have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I agree with everything you said, I suppose I'm just frustrated at the random requirements that keep getting tossed into the discussion, such as "can't use Orders", "must have SY", etc. /sigh If you are going to run with Discordway, Sabway, etc. then clearly Orders are not going to be that useful. But you could also argue that with that kind of team they don't really need your bow damage at all so why talk about ranger DPS.

They are thrown so the calculations would simulate real situations as well as possible. You can make calculations without those restrictions if you like, but if you aren't using builds used in your calculations you can't assume those calculations work in your situation then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Anyways... IN MY OPINION splinter barrage is one of the best damage dealing builds a ranger can run, and it's better to have Splinter coming from a ritualist with high channeling rather than the ranger himself. The ritualist can have a much higher channeling attribute than the ranger and if the ritualist does it the ranger doesn't have to stop shooting arrows to cast.

I agree with you here. You just need to be hitting 3 enemies most of the time for barrage to be better than Glass Arrows and that you can't always rely on with h/h.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If I had Barbs and Mark of Pain in the team I think I'd consider using Glass Arrows, Triple Shot, Double Shot, IATS and Asuran Scan to spike targets in the same way that warriors use multi-attack skills to spike with Mark of Pain. They have Whirlwind Attack and Sun and Moon Slash usually, the best equivalent a ranger has to that is Triple/Double Shot to pump out the Mark of Pain activations in the shortest amount of time. Also both of those skills are single target skills so Barrage will be pretty ineffective with them... one of the arrows would trigger Barbs and Mark of Pain but most would not.

Of course you could carry Barrage *and* Triple Shot (along with Asuran Scan, EBSoH, etc) so that you could deliver area damage *and* single target spike damage as the situation required. If you set up a glass arrows turret ranger kind of build its single target damage will be unmatched but you lose the opportunity to dish out mass damage, and too bad if the one target that you're attacking starts blocking or gets protted.

Mark of pain isn't usually very good in h/h unless you are running it yourself and that clearly isn't the case here when we are talking about ranger primary. Then again when using mop and you are with human team you are propably contributing more to the team running barrage.

Tenebrae · Feb 25, 2010, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

My calculations favor Glass Arrows a bit, mostly because I didn't include down time in shooting which comes from reapplying Asuran Scan, Glass Arrows and from some energy issues what Glass Arrows may have.

Well you also didnt include time for barragers to "ball up" mobs , if they dont , then barrage is hitting 4, 2 , 1 , 1 , 1 ... next foe group. Meanwhile , turrets are already dealing damage.
I think that calculation is pretty accurate except for the Asuran Scan part. If you use it like you are posting there , you will drain your energy pool really fast but its hella good for a spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

I agree with you here. You just need to be hitting 3 enemies most of the time for barrage to be better than Glass Arrows and that you can't always rely on with h/h.

... wich is never going to happen except for Tank and Spank or Urgoz. Hehehehe we are back to #63.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Mark of pain isn't usually very good in h/h unless you are running it yourself and that clearly isn't the case here when we are talking about ranger primary. Then again when using mop and you are with human team you are propably contributing more to the team running barrage.

You are right.
Spiking 1 target with X damage > dealing X damage AoE , thats why. Thats why Turrets are >>>>> Barragers. With MoP the diff is even more obvious. Try that style with some KD locker or AP caller + 1/2 Discords ... i did it on Kathandrax and it was a breeze.

Xenomortis · Feb 25, 2010, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

... wich is never going to happen except for Tank and Spank or Urgoz. Hehehehe we are back to #63.

Yes, that can easily happen in H/H situations. Many effective builds have skills that trigger on adjacent enemies.

MaaKotka · Feb 25, 2010, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Well you also didnt include time for barragers to "ball up" mobs , if they dont , then barrage is hitting 4, 2 , 1 , 1 , 1 ... next foe group. Meanwhile , turrets are already dealing damage.
I think that calculation is pretty accurate except for the Asuran Scan part. If you use it like you are posting there , you will drain your energy pool really fast but its hella good for a spike.

There is many other things I didn't include there too, because they are hard to implement in calculations.

I really didn't understand what you meant there with Asuran Scan. If you don't use it agains't nearly every enemy you are hitting, your dps drops fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

... wich is never going to happen except for Tank and Spank or Urgoz. Hehehehe we are back to #63.

Never is way too strong word here. If you are playing with good players you don't need tank´n spank to have enemies clumped. With h/h it takes way too much effort to keep enemies clumped so it is better to run Glass Arrows with h/h (imo). So wether barrage or glass arrows is better depends heavily on who you are playing with and what kind of team build you are running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You are right.
Spiking 1 target with X damage > dealing X damage AoE , thats why. Thats why Turrets are >>>>> Barragers. With MoP the diff is even more obvious. Try that style with some KD locker or AP caller + 1/2 Discords ... i did it on Kathandrax and it was a breeze.

In your example, if X = X, it is better to put that X on one target, unless X is high enough. This isn't true in turret vs barrage so you can't draw conclusion turrets > barrage from this.

Also glass arrows doesn't synergise well with mop, because glass arrows is delivering relatively big packets relatively slow. You are better of spiking targets out of mop range with glass arrows while you let warriors & sins to abuse mop.

Anyway I'm not saying that either of these builds are bad, they are just meant for entirely different situations and you should choose which is better in situations you are facing most.

Unless it has became clear already, imo glass arrows is better when you play with h/h or general pug and barrage when you play with good players or tank'n spank.

Tenebrae · Feb 25, 2010, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Yes, that can easily happen in H/H situations. Many effective builds have skills that trigger on adjacent enemies.

Keywords "most of the time" . No , it wont happen. I never said that one barrage couldnt hit 3 foes ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

I really didn't understand what you meant there with Asuran Scan. If you don't use it agains't nearly every enemy you are hitting, your dps drops fast.

Not that fast but if you use it on every enemy , even with a zealous bow , your energy will drop hella fast so ....its not "nearly every enemy" but bleh , calculations are only good for a paper imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Never is way too strong word here. If you are playing with good players you don't need tank´n spank to have enemies clumped.

Yeah because "most of the time" is too strong when we are talking about a regular 3 hit per barrage. Used it in a bloody lot of places , trust me . Even with good players you can achieve some 3BarrageHits but in overall barrage shots fired not even close to "half of the time".

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

In your example, if X = X, it is better to put that X on one target, unless X is high enough. This isn't true in turret vs barrage so you can't draw conclusion turrets > barrage from this.

Yeah well i should have used X and Y , or 200 and 300 , whatever . Its still better to deliver 200 dmg to 1 target than 400 to 3 targets ( no real numbers , back off theorycrafters ! ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Also glass arrows doesn't synergise well with mop, because glass arrows is delivering relatively big packets relatively slow. You are better of spiking targets out of mop range with glass arrows while you let warriors & sins to abuse mop.

Was talking about Turrets , GA Rangers are only part of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Unless it has became clear already, imo glass arrows is better when you play with h/h or general pug and barrage when you play with good players or tank'n spank.

What matters here is tank and spank or foes number ( like urgoz ). Plain simple , when theres only 3-4 foes alive , almost all the time none of them are adjacent to each other so barrage DPS is doomed to 1 or 2 hits per skill ( if you are lucky ).
Im not going to talk about player skill factor because its obvious that with bad players anything will go like st*t.

MaaKotka · Feb 25, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Not that fast but if you use it on every enemy , even with a zealous bow , your energy will drop hella fast so ....its not "nearly every enemy" but bleh , calculations are only good for a paper imo.

It should be nearly every enemy, if you want to keep your dps high. That is true that after about 5 kills you run out of energy, but mob should be dead by then anyway, shouldn't it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah because "most of the time" is too strong when we are talking about a regular 3 hit per barrage. Used it in a bloody lot of places , trust me . Even with good players you can achieve some 3BarrageHits but in overall barrage shots fired not even close to "half of the time".

If your teambuild is mostly aoe damage and you are playing with good players 3hit barrage should be most of the time possible unless there is only 1-3 enemies alive. If your teambuild bases mostly on single target spikes there is no reason to bring barrage to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah well i should have used X and Y , or 200 and 300 , whatever . Its still better to deliver 200 dmg to 1 target than 400 to 3 targets ( no real numbers , back off theorycrafters ! ).

With your numbers, true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Was talking about Turrets , GA Rangers are only part of them.

Ranger in general aren't good to activate mop, because they can't deliver lots of damage packets in short time. Yes you can make one nice mop spike with triple and dual shot but their recharge is too long to make them good mop triggerer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

What matters here is tank and spank or foes number ( like urgoz ). Plain simple , when theres only 3-4 foes alive , almost all the time none of them are adjacent to each other so barrage DPS is doomed to 1 or 2 hits per skill ( if you are lucky ).
Im not going to talk about player skill factor because its obvious that with bad players anything will go like st*t.

I don't know where you play, but most places have bigger than 3-4 foe groups and when your team build is made to deal mostly aoe damage most or all of foes will die almost simultaneously. This ofcourse requires good players, but that was the assumption here, right. If you can't get more than 1 or 2 hits regularly from barrage you are either playing with team build that is based on single target spikes or with ppl who don't know how to control aggro (= bad players) or in an area where mobs are exeptionally small (3-4 foes or less) or you are bad at choosing targets.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 25, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

for those who want an impartial comparison of glass arrows builds (single-target) vs. barrage builds (multi-target) this math has already been done, please see posts 127, 132, 135.

no one seems to read so I'll summarize:

with asuran scan active:
barrage does more total damage with 2 or more hits and buff damage > 27.5
glass arrows does more damage if you can only hit 1 target with barrage or buff damage < 27.5

without asuran scan:
barrage does more total damage with 2 or more hits at any amount of buff damage

glass arrows always has the highest single target damage, though barrage may deliver more total damage with 2 or more hits, depending on the amount of buff damage you have and whether asuran scan is active.

the analysis includes some common buffs but it is skill-independent, I have calculated the buff damage you need to have in order to reach the breakpoint, the skills you bring are totally up to you. if you really want to know how these playstyles compare then read these.

other notes:
barrage, volley, triple shot synergize extremely well with Splinter Weapon
spike builds (e.g. Glass Arrows) have negative synergy with Mark of Pain because you kill the target before Mark of Pain can deliver much damage

one thing that has not been mentioned much is energy cost, and this was not touched on in my comparison either. a barrage ranger with reasonably high marksmanship and a zealous bow can barrage all day long. the glass arrows style spike builds cost quite a lot of energy, especially if you're casting asuran scan every few seconds.

MaaKotka · Feb 25, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

for those who want an impartial comparison of glass arrows builds (single-target) vs. barrage builds (multi-target) this math has already been done, please see posts 127, 132, 135.

no one seems to read so I'll summarize:

with asuran scan active:
barrage does more total damage with 2 or more hits and buff damage > 27.5
glass arrows does more damage if you can only hit 1 target with barrage or buff damage < 27.5

without asuran scan:
barrage does more total damage with 2 or more hits at any amount of buff damage

glass arrows always has the highest single target damage, though barrage may deliver more total damage with 2 or more hits, depending on the amount of buff damage you have and whether asuran scan is active.

the analysis includes some common buffs but it is skill-independent, I have calculated the buff damage you need to have in order to reach the breakpoint, the skills you bring are totally up to you. if you really want to know how these playstyles compare then read these.

Your calculations did not take into account IAS and the fact that real barrage builds don't usually use asuran scan where single target builds almost aways have asuran scan. These make your calculation to favor heavily barrage. See my calculations to see how IAS and asuran scan affects.

2 hits on average from Barrage is not enough to beat Glass Arrows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

other notes:
barrage, volley, triple shot synergize extremely well with Splinter Weapon
spike builds (e.g. Glass Arrows) have negative synergy with Mark of Pain because you kill the target before Mark of Pain can deliver much damage

Splinter Weapon synergises well with barrage because you are attacking clumped foes. Triple shot doesn't get any more benefit from splinter than autoattacks or any other attacks. Besides GDW is much better than splinter on barrage and it actually synergises with triple shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

one thing that has not been mentioned much is energy cost, and this was not touched on in my comparison either. a barrage ranger with reasonably high marksmanship and a zealous bow can barrage all day long. the glass arrows style spike builds cost quite a lot of energy, especially if you're casting asuran scan every few seconds.

It has already mentioned that glass arrows builds are heavy on energy, but it is not an issue unless you can't wipe mob before you run out of energy.

AtomicMew · Feb 25, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

...for those who want an impartial comparison of glass arrows builds (single-target) vs. barrage builds (multi-target)...

Impartial - I lol'ed. Your math is wrong.

even if you take asura scan on barrage it takes more than 2 hits to out-do the MW build posted earlier. Your simple calculations are simply amateur-ish and are not actually relevant to anything remotely interesting.

the math is very, very complicated. For starters, you need builds. I'm not convinced the optimal single-target spiker build has been discussed so far.

Then there are other conditions such as:

1) Do we require energy sustainability?

2) Should we require SY? (For H/H, ostensibly, we should. But if we don't, that's actually a BIG boon for the single target spiker, since we get access to things like zealous vow.)

3) Do we disallow suboptimal hero builds/skills? (If we allow shit like winnowing and orders in H/H, then I'll also add BiP to the list so then I don't have to worry about energy and I can go 16 marks/12 conjure flame or something else entirely unrealistic in a real game setting.)

Until there is a consensus on which conditions we require, it's sheer folly to try to extrapolate exactly where the tipping point is, other than "it's bigger than 2."

MaaKotka · Feb 25, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

even if you take asura scan on barrage it takes more than 2 hits to out-do the MW build posted earlier. Your simple calculations are simply amateur-ish and are not actually relevant to anything remotely interesting.

I disgree you here, I'd think that 2 hit barrage is better if you don't use asuran scan. Anyway it is irrelevant since you should be using scan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

the math is very, very complicated. For starters, you need builds. I'm not convinced the optimal single-target spiker build has been discussed so far.

It would need extremely complicated math to do accurate calculations so we need to simplify some things, unless someone is willing to do calculations that simulate real situations accurately. Don't know about optimal single target dps build, but i'd think glass arrows with pb shot, zojun's shot and needling shot is close. I'd be interested to see what single target dps build is best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Then there are other conditions such as:

1) Do we require energy sustainability?

If it is needed to wipe the mob then we need sustainability to some degree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

2) Should we require SY? (For H/H, ostensibly, we should. But if we don't, that's actually a BIG boon for the single target spiker, since we get access to things like zealous vow.)

Imo SY shouldn't be required because it is needed only for the few hardest areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

3) Do we disallow suboptimal hero builds/skills? (If we allow shit like winnowing and orders in H/H, then I'll also add BiP to the list so then I don't have to worry about energy and I can go 16 marks/12 conjure flame or something else entirely unrealistic in a real game setting.)

Suboptimal hero builds and skills shouldn't be included since we are trying to find optimal builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Until there is a consensus on which conditions we require, it's sheer folly to try to extrapolate exactly where the tipping point is, other than "it's bigger than 2."

True. It is somewhere between 2 and 3, probably closer to 3 than 2, but like you said it can't be calculated without knowing exact conditions. Imo it is irrelevant to know exact tipping point as long as we have a good approximation from it.

Amy Awien · Feb 25, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

I don't know where you play, but most places have bigger than 3-4 foe groups and when your team build is made to deal mostly aoe damage most or all of foes will die almost simultaneously.

Where do you play, groups with more then 3-4 foes thend to have a mixture of melee and ranged types, which don't ball up together. You certainly can't ball them up on your own and good players aren't skills that you can make part of your build. Stop using unrealistic arguments.

Tenebrae · Feb 25, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Snip.

Seriosly pal , dont make me repeat myself.
Everything i stated in #63 its true. Dont add "good players" and "skillful play" to maths when using barrage , its pretty clear that mob lvl and "party size" ( of their groups ) determines barrage success.
You cant achieve 2 or 3 hits per barrage "most of the time" if foes are in groups of 2-4 and thats a fact. Not even in groups of 6 because like i said before ( 4th time or so ) in that time you and/or your skilled mates spend in "balling up" foes Turret Rangers are already dealing damage and sometimes achieving a kill and .....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Where do you play, groups with more then 3-4 foes tend to have a mixture of melee and ranged types, which don't ball up together. You certainly can't ball them up on your own and good players aren't skills that you can make part of your build. Stop using unrealistic arguments.

Thanks for saving me sometime explaining.

MaaKotka · Feb 25, 2010, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Seriosly pal , dont make me repeat myself.
Everything i stated in #63 its true. Dont add "good players" and "skillful play" to maths when using barrage , its pretty clear that mob lvl and "party size" ( of their groups ) determines barrage success.
You cant achieve 2 or 3 hits per barrage "most of the time" if foes are in groups of 2-4 and thats a fact. Not even in groups of 6 because like i said before ( 4th time or so ) in that time you and/or your skilled mates spend in "balling up" foes Turret Rangers are already dealing damage and sometimes achieving a kill and .....

I add "good players" and "skillful play" to math when using barrage, because they are needed to make barrage (and other aoe skills) good unless you are using tank'n spank tactics.

Like it is proved already, if you can't get more than 2 hits from barrage on average you are better of using single target builds. But don't generalize that something you don't succeed doing anyone else couldn't success doing too. With a bit of practice balling ai isn't that hard or time consuming.

Anyway I think this is discussed enough.

Tenebrae · Feb 25, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

I add "good players" and "skillful play" to math when using barrage, because they are needed to make barrage (and other aoe skills) good unless you are using tank'n spank tactics.

No , not really , just need hands and move them but it takes time , seconds in wich ( 5th time ) Turrets are already dealing damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

But don't generalize that something you don't succeed doing anyone else couldn't success doing too. With a bit of practice balling ai isn't that hard or time consuming.

Anyway I think this is discussed enough.

Dont make false assumptions and dont tell me what i can or cant do because you dont know jack about me ok ?. You should read what ppl say instead of waiting for a keyword to drop what you want to say , no one said here that balling is hard or time consuming but it takes time and that is a fact. Not an hour , not half , but seconds in wich .... oh , you know what ? nvm .

Agree , enough of this.

AtomicMew · Feb 25, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

It would need extremely complicated math to do accurate calculations so we need to simplify some things, unless someone is willing to do calculations that simulate real situations accurately. Don't know about optimal single target dps build, but i'd think glass arrows with pb shot, zojun's shot and needling shot is close. I'd be interested to see what single target dps build is best.

PBS and ZS are not optimal when you take into account huge amounts of buffs, like people have been doing. What's better is sundering/penetrating attack and needling shot like was posted earlier.

MaaKotka · Feb 25, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

PBS and ZS are not optimal when you take into account huge amounts of buffs, like people have been doing. What's better is sundering/penetrating attack and needling shot like was posted earlier.

True, but those buids are already heavy on energy, with sundering/penetrating you are burning through your energy even faster. Never said needling shouldn't be included.

edit: then again I don't know if sund/pene burn your energy too fast or do you have enough energy to kill the mob with them.

Renai · Mar 05, 2010, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Fail. I've had LVQ for years now, when it still meant something.

When you've done every dungeon in HM with H/H, come back and talk to me. I certainly don't need to be talked down to by someone who can't realize racway is dated.

Except that's not what you did. You shouldn't have considered IATS in your calculation BAR NONE. It does not help both builds EQUALLY. With barrage, a smaller percentage of your arrows will have IATS buff, which means it is LESS effective on barrage builds.

Except it doesn't, because you've completely ignored the fact that you can automatically get 2 hits in the time it takes to even activate and recharge barrage. Fail argument is fail.

Anyone who can theorycraft worth a damn can see straight away that a single target spiker will at the very LEAST be able to keep up with 2-target barrage. Straight away, this should be obvious, considering the a build capable of such has been posted in this thread already. The tipping point is probably somewhere between 2.5 and 3.5, depending on buffs. When you have some decent math, come back and talk.

post a screeny of your title ?