Curse

Chthon · Feb 10, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Maxxfury asks an interesting question in a largely uninteresting thread. I think it's worth taking a look at on its own: So, you want a DPS ranger? How do we do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

In a h&h situation this is a big issue, as you say the trade off isnt worth loosin Sy imo.

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I cant see a bow dps bar beating out what a melee can do, given the buffs a melee can get these days, and for that reason id prob rather run melee over bow for dps on R.

If i dont need to bring bha for dazing big bosses, then i want to run dps, as i cant rupt so well in hm :P (cast times and a crap ping

)

Then assuming sy is covered, id prob run scythe(poss+pet) or dagger(poss+pet), if not id go r/w for sy with a turret or fake a war melee bar. If there is a tank id poss run barrage :P .Tho im open for been shown some epic new bar i havent happened upon that does this better :P

**assuming im locked into ranger for the area and cant/dont want to change for a better damage class.

TLDR: If SY is covered in a NON tank n spank, whats the best dam bar a ranger can take now? melee or bow..

First, understand that rangers suck at DPS. Sad, but true. Almost every other class has builds that out-DPS anything you can put on a ranger. (I'm sure this greatly offends casual-player ranger-lovers, as well as a particular individual who thinks that 3 * 1.8 = 6. It is true nonetheless.) So, before you even start, understand that the ONLY reason to even bother is because you've already made up your mind that you're going to use a ranger and do the best you can under that handicap. If you're looking for optimal, the best solution is to use another class.

Second, understand that SY! is more important than any damage capacity you might be able to eek out. So you are locked into R/W unless SY! is covered by someone else. If you've got a melee SY! on your team, you might still want to run SY! yourself because you can better maintain it on the casters. R/W limits your weapon options to bow, pet, sword, axe, and hammer.

Third, I want to look at bow DPS for a minute. With a decently constructed team, you should be sitting under GDW, EBSoH, and Orders. That's +52 dmg. A quick review of the ranger skillset should reveal that rangers don't have any skills that can really equal that. Thus, getting more arrows in the air is the best thing you can do for your DPS. That leads to a few skills standing out as your best options:

IAS. This should be pretty obvious.
Barrage. This is the best skill rangers have for getting more arrows into the air. Anywhere you can get at least 2 targets, Barrage is going to perform well DPS-wise. Where monsters are reasonably thick, it's the best choice by far. (I can hear some folks saying "but, but, Barrage is for noobs." Sorry, you're wrong. Math > you.)
- What about Volley and Incendiary Arrows? They're both strictly inferior to Barrage (fewer arrows, longer recharge, less +dmg). Volley has the advantage of being non-elite, so it's potentially worth using if you really need that elite slot for something else. (BHA for a nasty boss fight is about all that comes to mind.) I can't think of a use for Incendiary Arrows that Barrage doesn't do better (although IA+Ignote Arrows+EBSoH is cute).
Needling Shot. This skill is equivalent to 62.5% IAS over flatbow speed. Weee. Too bad it only works half the time.
Penetrating Attack/Sundering Shot used to be a decent idea, but aren't anymore. They are pretty much dead after that last nerf. Since the aftercast can't be shortened by IAS, their total activation time ends up not much quicker than a regular attack under IAS.
Triple Shot/Dual Shot/Forked Arrow are promising, but don't deliver. The no-enchant clause on Forked makes it garbage. You can't practically use a skill that stops working if your monk ever needs to prot you. The recharge on Triple and Dual is just too long. They do a fantastic job on the first target (5 arrows in the space of 2 is equivalent to 60% IAS), but then you're dead in the water for the rest of their 10sec recharge. (I've tried fixing this with AP, but it's too ungainly to work in practice. One might try Serpent's Quickness + Dwarven Stability, although I worry about the high cost in attributes, skillslots, and the stance slot.)

Fourth, let's talk about melee possibilities. You gain SoH by going melee, but you are likely to lose EBSoH, since both energy and placement become problems when you try to put it on the front lines. Depending on whether your SoH person is Mo/X or X/Mo and how much smiting they can afford, you're looking at ~5dmg per hit as compared to bow. That's more than you get with bow, but not a lot more. So, it is not (like maxxfury suggests) a question of melee having better buffs, so much as a question of melee maybe being able to generate more packets from some combination of:

Faster base attack speeds on melee weapons than bows,
Melee skills like 100B or WWAttack that generate lots of packets,
Maybe the inherent multi-hit nature of scythes (which I find is generally not so great because it usually gets outweighed by the slow base speed and anemic skill selection), and
Sticking SoH + GDW on the pet. And, yes, those get the 33% boost applied. (You can run a pet with a bow build too, but it may not get SoH unless the team has other reasons to run it.)

I'm not at all sure if those can add up to better packet spam than Barrage given the restrictions of a ranger primary, but they would certainly be the starting point if you wanted to make such a build.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 10, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I'm a little new to rediscovering my ranger (she was previously only used a touch ranger and ursan....:boo:...:hiss:....).

Incendiary Arrows just seems bad ass to me but maybe I'm just missing the DPS boat. I've been giving Fragility to my curses necro and it seems pretty effective with each incendiary barrage triggering fragility twice + 42 damage from burning + base damage + bonus damage from ignite arrows which I can't take with barrage. It sure looks pretty on the screen seeing all those damage packets...

Moonlit Azure · Feb 10, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

And this is my problem with rangers. I thought the core classes were supposed to be balanced, but rangers in the current game are a giant mess. Whats their focus? Bows builds are terrible and everything else is second fiddle to other classes.

Builds like the packhunter seem good, but I still don't like pets. I thought a skill balance would open up more options for rangers, but the aftercast just hurt them more.

Ralisti · Feb 10, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

or maybe you're stressing dps a little much. Rangers weren't meant to lead all classes in DPS..but what do I know.

I used to love playing my barrage Ranger before my acct was hacked and my bows were stolen

Chthon · Feb 10, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralisti

or maybe you're stressing dps a little much. Rangers weren't meant to lead all classes in DPS..but what do I know.

The problem is that they pretty much don't lead all classes in anything. They don't lead in DPS; They don't lead in damage mitigation; They don't lead in healing; They don't lead in any combination (ex: "damage mitigation + DPS" like an imbagon) either. The one and only thing rangers can do better than anyone else is disruption via dazed, which is of limited need in most areas.

That said, this thread isn't about the fact that rangers suck in PvE right now. We've had that thread before. This thread is about the best (or least bad) options for eeking out some ranger DPS.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 10, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Barrage is generally pretty 'meh'. it's good, but their aren't too many scenerios where you'll be using it to it's full potential.

Rangers just flat out suck with bows and in PvE in general. I'd much rather roll a different class than try to figure out the greatest sub-par build out there.

As for actual DPS, ED and ZS/PBS is pretty interesting (ASOy1aqZKxrdZgK9WahlLWvNTC), or else bring Glass Arrows. IDK which would be better. Before the nerf, I concocted a machine gunning build, ACMBGvbep7SkDXjcxWJHjTp3S, that was pretty spam happy in theory (since I don't actually have a ranger), but it's pretty much nerfed to hell now with the aftercast and needling shot change.

Short answer? Stop trying.

Xsiriss · Feb 10, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

The problem with comparing Rangers to melee,is that they can do the damage from a distance. Which may have its drawbacks but as can be seen with things like Ranger spike,it's frickin deadly to the extreme. What they have currently done to Rangers in terms of 'balancing' is ridiculous,with it affecting PvE like it did for pure dps skills.

As for conditions, IA+what ever prep is only good so far in as support rather than a damage dealer (eg setting up the requirements for discord),as the damage from something like ignite arrows is pitiful,especially in HM.

The game for HM PvE using balanced methods is generally a joke, Rangers just happen to be one of the many punchlines in it.

Betrayer of Wind · Feb 10, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Barrage builds are crap unless you have a tank.I cant stress that enough.

If you want a DPS Bow ranger build,then use prepared shot with Expert focus @ 15exp and spam asuran scam/IATS/EBSoH/DS+LR or whatever.You can take out single targets with no help from the party at all in a matter of 3-4 bow atks.

Dont wanna use Expert focus?then use Ignite/Kindle arrows with EBSoH(both of them generates another packet of dmg,thus receiving the bonus twice,u dont even need to invest much pts on wilderness because most of the dmg will be comming from EBSoH anyway).They also turn ur dmg into fire dmg,so you can bring conjure flame and a vamp/zealous bow at the same time.Now bring triple shot and dual shot,and there u go,huge packets of dmg.

As for Melee builds,R/A deals the most DPS as it can spam PvE skills,have nearly perma-block/IAS,and use DB like a buttom masher with infinite energy(any golden-xxxxx dagger skill will get u infinite energy if used correctly).

Need SY!???? Glass Arrows +DS/LR + Triple shot + FGJ! will guarantee almost 100% SY! uptime as long as timed correctly and at least 5-6 secs of SY.

Anything else im missing?

Archress Shayleigh · Feb 10, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

One word. Bullcrap.
Dual Shot, Zojun's, Point Blank, "I Am The Strongest!", GA, Asuran Scan, "SY!", and a spare slot. Gives a hell loada damage pretty fast, too. Btw I use sweet cons (Blue, Red rock candies) so that's where the speed comes from.

Betrayer of Wind · Feb 10, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Also,u guys mention alot of "DPS".Remember that a ranger has a very sustainable ranged dmg,while with melee its not very sustainable since you need to run from target to target thus losing quite a few atks that the ranged ranger would do meanwhile.

Marverick · Feb 10, 2010, 09:12 PM // 21:12

R/A used to be viable when Expert's Dexterity was in its original form.
Expert's Dexterity - Golden Lotus Strike - Jungle Strike - Death Blossom - Trampling Ox - "You Move Like a Dwarf!"
You could KD-lock anything you wanted. Death Blossom could be spammed on recharge.

I've been trying to come up with a viable Assassin's Promise bow build for a bit but haven't really gotten anything working well. If you guys have any suggestions...

Expert's Focus - Assassin's Promise - "I Am The Strongest" - Asuran Scan - Triple Shot - Dual Shot - Needling Shot - EBSoH

Basically use a combination of PvE buffs and attack skills to knock a target below 50%, from which you Needling Shot spam to kill. I'd like to fit Lightning Reflexes in there somehow since it provides a permanent IAS and block, but idk how.

Not Listing it Here · Feb 10, 2010, 09:21 PM // 21:21

The only reason I ever like my ranger was for the range. Thom gets wacked on while the henchies hang out near me at longbow range. I really wish they could get the rangers some love. Great thread...best explanation I've heard so far for what the problem with this class are.

MisterB · Feb 10, 2010, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

I've been trying to come up with a viable Assassin's Promise bow build for a bit but haven't really gotten anything working well. If you guys have any suggestions..

Expert's Focus - Assassin's Promise - "I Am The Strongest" - Asuran Scan - Triple Shot - Dual Shot - Needling Shot - EBSoH

Basically use a combination of PvE buffs and attack skills to knock a target below 50%, from which you Needling Shot spam to kill. I'd like to fit Lightning Reflexes in there somehow since it provides a permanent IAS and block, but idk how.

You could take out a PvE skill, since you have 4 there now.

Tenebrae · Feb 10, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archress Shayleigh

One word. Bullcrap.
Duel Shot, Zojuns, Point Blank, I Am The Strongest, GA, Asuran Scan, SY!, and a spare slot. Gives a hell loada damage pretty fast, too. Btw I use sweet cons(Blue, Red rock candies) so that's where the speed comes from.

+1. Yeah rangers sucked so bad that Anet still nerfs them in PvP. Rangers DPS is going to be constantly nerfed because Anet doesnt want them to be at the top of the chain and thats pretty much it. Rest is blehmaths of clueless ppl about Rangers ( lol @ barrage ) who doesnt know the diff between a real numbers and useless , pointless and worthless decimals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

Also,u guys mention alot of "DPS".Remember that a ranger has a very sustainable ranged dmg,while with melee its not very sustainable since you need to run from target to target thus losing quite a few atks that the ranged ranger would do meanwhile.

You are right but melee still have SoH , those 20-25 for free per hit with an IAS will always rock Ranged Attackers. Till SoH is available also for ranged attackers , Buffed melee > Buffed ranged attacker.

Pugs Not Drugs · Feb 10, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

not really, in pve dagger rangers can pump out more dps than assasins with a free elite slot. jagged + fox fangs + db = 4 hits in 2 seconds, lets say each base damage hit was only 10, that makes 40. add in 80 damage from soh, 110 bonus damage from attack skills, and 150 damage from asura scan, you have around 400 spamable damage right there

Betrayer of Wind · Feb 10, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

not really, in pve dagger rangers can pump out more dps than assasins with a free elite slot. jagged + fox fangs + db = 4 hits in 2 seconds, lets say each base damage hit was only 10, that makes 40. add in 80 damage from soh, 110 bonus damage from attack skills, and 150 damage from asura scan, you have around 400 spamable damage right there

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You are right but melee still have SoH , those 20-25 for free per hit with an IAS will always rock Ranged Attackers. Till SoH is available also for ranged attackers , Buffed melee > Buffed ranged attacker.

Look above,R/A's can make the most use of SoH over any other class imo.

Desert Rose · Feb 10, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Second, understand that SY! is more important than any damage capacity you might be able to eek out. So you are locked into R/W unless SY! is covered by someone else. If you've got a melee SY! on your team, you might still want to run SY! yourself because you can better maintain it on the casters. R/W limits your weapon options to bow, pet, sword, axe, and hammer.

If you're running around with H/H it's more important to deal good damage because NPCs suck at damage dealing; if you're running around with other human players someone else will most likely someone else is better at keeping SY! up. So, SY! is good to have, but it isn't your first priority.

Quote:

Penetrating Attack/Sundering Shot used to be a decent idea, but aren't anymore. They are pretty much dead after that last nerf. Since the aftercast can't be shortened by IAS, their total activation time ends up not much quicker than a regular attack under IAS.

Despite the fact that everyone complains that Penetrating Attack/Sundering Shot were nerfed to hell I haven't yet seen a ranger bow build that deals more damage than this or a similar build.

Btw: According to the official wiki Penetrating Attack/Sundering Shot activate in 3/8 seconds, so even with 33% IAS they activate ~78% faster than normal bow attacks.

Betrayer of Wind · Feb 10, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Btw: According to the official wiki Penetrating Attack/Sundering Shot activate in 3/8 seconds, so even with 33% IAS they activate ~78% faster than normal bow attacks.

It does activate faster than before,but what people are complaining is that it also got a short aftercast,so u cant chain them as fast as you used to(which means a better burst/spike dmg) but the overall atk rate seems very similar,if not unnafected.
People saying it got nerfed just didnt played the build to its full potential,since its still very good and the best option for ranged dps imo.

Moonlit Azure · Feb 10, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Am I the only one who sees rangers slipping in pvp also? But thats besides the point.

Most of you here are belating the obvious and then posting a bad build.

Betrayer of Wind · Feb 10, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Am I the only one who sees rangers slipping in pvp also? But thats besides the point.

Most of you here are belating the obvious and then posting a bad build.

lol,u prob never used a turret build,being able to take down a healer in the backline in a matter of 3-5 shots in a period of like 2-3 secs without having to rush through their frontline,being able to pick any key targets in the area without having to chase them around,etc.
Also you can make a much better use of splinter since you have complete control over your targets without sacrificing time and DPS to run towards the best clumped tagets.

If those builds are BAD,then please show a better one or stop posting.