Curse

Fay Vert · Jun 02, 2010, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexander92

Rangers are not weak,they are awsome.They have one of the best primary atributes of all the classes.Bows arn't supost to do big damage,that thing is what scythes do or axes or whatever.If u want to deal big damage as a ranger start abusing that awsome shit called expertise.Have you ever tried a daggers ranger with a pet?25% ias,deep wound on demand,energy management and uber dps?Or a scythe ranger?Idc those are other classes weapons but i'll say that again ,bows are not for big damage.Rangers are fine .Dervs and eles are broken.

Thank you for proving bows are useless (you know, what this thread is about!). And who said bows are not meant for damage? History begs to differ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Learn to read the AI better.

Don't presume someone you don't know isn't more informed than yourself. You can look very silly that way. The AI certainly doesn't behave the way you suggest, and even if it did, who wants to wait around for ages for the mobs to patrol in the right way just so you can start a battle with BHA. Good luck getting your party to sit and wait.

Sirius Bsns · Jun 02, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I'd really like to see alot of the GvG-related nerfs reverted for rangers in PvE. On top of that, the elite bow attack "Barrage" would be so much more awesome if they increased the aoe to "foes within the area", buffed the bonus damage while making it armor-ignoring, and removed the "removes preparation" clause. If they'd also give Rapid Fire [the preparation in the Marksmanship line] some bonus damage, then Barrage + Rapid Fire = Awesomeness for PvE [ONLY].

That'd be a perfect "start" as far as improving rangers in PvE, imho.

Ugh · Jun 02, 2010, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I'd really like to see alot of the GvG-related nerfs reverted for rangers in PvE. On top of that, the elite bow attack "Barrage" would be so much more awesome if they increased the aoe to "foes within the area", buffed the bonus damage while making it armor-ignoring, and removed the "removes preparation" clause. If they'd also give Rapid Fire [the preparation in the Marksmanship line] some bonus damage, then Barrage + Rapid Fire = Awesomeness for PvE [ONLY].

That'd be a perfect "start" as far as improving rangers in PvE, imho.

I'd prefer they buffed ranger's supporting capabities rather than their dps. Like Fay previously suggested, a shortened duration, shortened recharge, and decreased energy cost would do wonders for BHA. Besides that, I'm not sure what else they'd do, though; nature rituals have a lot more potential than bows, imo.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jun 02, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Really I'd run a ranger if I could use preparations with barrage.

wilebill · Jun 02, 2010, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Been vanquishing Magus Stones HM to max out Asuran Title. Tried bow build, but ... not very effective. Look through Marksmanship and you have cast times on bow shots that ... heck you can build a campfire and wait until your billy boils before the arrow finally takes off.

So, switched to a pet build with 14 Beast, 11 Marks, 12 Expertise. Asuran Scan, Vampirism, Never Rampage Alone, Bestial Pounce, Enraged Lunge, Crossfire, Otyugh's Cry, Comfort Animal. Combine this with Sabway Healer and Minion Master. Gwen for third hero ... actually with her along I don't need to do much anyways. And four hench of choice. Use Drago's Flatbow for pew pew.

Switch Asuran Scan out for Air of Superiority, stuff still dies about as fast. Not Technobabble because I want spells for Gwen to abuse.

So, all's well that ends well. Yeah, and the pet build could be improved, just first thing I threw together for this area.

Thing is, I've been playing this Ranger since the day Prophecies went live. I don't believe that I have ever seen Marksmanship in such a sucking state as it is in now.

I do think that restrictions placed on Ranger bow skills for PvP balance should be backed out with PvE only versions of all Ranger bow skills.

Darkest Dawn · Jun 03, 2010, 02:15 AM // 02:15

The state of the bow ranger is a bummer as I hear you folks tell it. I recently came back after a bit of a hiatus and was planning on rolling another ranger. Now I'm not sure what I will roll as a new alt... Are necros in better shape than rangers in terms of both solo and pvp? My choice is one of the two just can't make up my mind...

Countess Marie · Jun 03, 2010, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Thank you for proving bows are useless (you know, what this thread is about!). And who said bows are not meant for damage? History begs to differ.

Best quote. I guess they used bows when they realized they couldn't call lightning or fire from the sky, summon spirits or destroy someone's mind from the inside out. heh

I personally think bows are great. I love to interrupt. Mes might be better, but ranger can do other things, too. The spike damage of bows isn't horrible, especially when you look at the fact that you can pretty much shut down a single target.

-CM

Ugh · Jun 03, 2010, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

The state of the bow ranger is a bummer as I hear you folks tell it. I recently came back after a bit of a hiatus and was planning on rolling another ranger. Now I'm not sure what I will roll as a new alt... Are necros in better shape than rangers in terms of both solo and pvp? My choice is one of the two just can't make up my mind...

Necros > Rangers in PvE
Rangers > Necros in PvP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countess Marie

I personally think bows are great. I love to interrupt. Mes might be better, but ranger can do other things, too. The spike damage of bows isn't horrible, especially when you look at the fact that you can pretty much shut down a single target.

-CM

Spiking is pretty much the only thing rangers have going for them in PvE. Unfortunately, spiking isn't usually as good as the benefits other physicals offer and many of the 1c bow attacks got nerfed a while back, anyways. Penetrating and Debelitating Attack are still pretty good, though.

Fingers crossed for a ranger update in July.

Tenebrae · Jun 03, 2010, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Spiking is pretty much the only thing rangers have going for them in PvE. Unfortunately, spiking isn't usually as good as the benefits other buffed physicals offer and many of the 1c bow attacks got nerfed a while back, anyways. Penetrating and Debelitating Attack are still pretty good, though.

Fingers crossed for a ranger update in July.

Fixed.

Just remind you that bow/spear users dont have to run to the target and almost always attack first. A turret ranger can spike or deal well sustained damage while boosting party damage with Ebsoh and yes , melees deal more , but not so omgwtf more without being buffed as hell.

Some ppl just see in black or white , its like : "hey , bows can deal more damage than melee weaps , omg they are 100% useless !" .... yeah , theres no mid term lol.

Ugh · Jun 03, 2010, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Fixed.

I dunno... other physicals seem to do pretty well without other buffs. Also, those builds offer other benefits like AoE or knocklocking.

Edit: It's also nice to have frontliners, for obvious reasons.

Quote:

Just remind you that bow/spear users dont have to run to the target and almost always attack first. A turret ranger can spike or deal well sustained damage while boosting party damage with Ebsoh

Yep, that's why I agree they're good at spiking; they can switch targets very quickly and take out enemies from a distance.

Quote:

Some ppl just see in black or white , its like : "hey , bows can deal more damage than melee weaps , omg they are 100% useless !" .... yeah , theres no mid term lol.

I agree that they're not useless... I just wish they were a bit more useful. :/

WhiteAsIce · Jun 08, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Well, BHA certainly does have some uses. It's a major asset in the Boreas Seabed and Unwaking Waters missions.

Xiaquin · Jun 12, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05

To me, Rangers have always been considered to lack what other professions have, but I use a Ranger (bow only) for many reasons, and never felt bow was "useless".

Ok, go back to the early days, before PvE skills, before Factions (no BHA), and yes, it felt sluggish. But add up what can be done today: spike, interrupt, daze easily, range and use of terrain can be taken advantage of, and of course conditions are plentiful. To me, it's not the bow, it's nature rituals cast/cool down times, and functionality that need improvement.

OP: Splinter Barrage is only one tool. I used to run this and it's exactly as you say. Don't bring it unless you know that it will be useful. If you really want damage try this:

Glass Arrows
Lightning Reflexes
Asuran Scan
Zojun's Shot
Needling Shot

Use Zojun's and normal attacks until the enemy is <50% health, then unload with Needling. You will smoke enemies. Whoever says bows suck just needs to learn how to use them to the best potential. If you want damage and DPS, that is my personal endorsement. Everything else listed above puts the bow on the map.

And most of all, if everyone just made a Sin instead, GW would be incredibly boring. Besides, I generally dedicate about half my build to the bow, the rest I plug in with utility skills like Vanguard Assassin, Asura Summon and Pain Inverter. These are skills not every profession will take because they can't support the energy or sacrifice their builds, and I can bring many or all, regardless of my role.

StormX · Jun 13, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

I agree with the OP's post. Ranger used to be popular back in the old B/P days but now I find little use for running one as a primary. Bow= slow attack rate, mediocre dmg and easily dodged. (Its pretty annoying to start firing at a mob and see "stray" "miss" "block" or "dodge" on the screen. Yes, I'm a noob QQ.) If I wanted interrupts I'd use a hero mesmer. Nowadays I run an enraged lunge pet build... decent dmg output but single target only.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 19, 2010, 05:40 AM // 05:40

So what DPS is a "bad" DPS? I attached a file where I was at the Master of Damage. I cranked out 150 DPS average and spiked for over 450 in 1 second. Granted, the MoD isn't the typical hard-mode mob, but it still obeys the same mechanics. If armor has you down, you can easily go Mo secondary and use Judge's Insight with a Hornbow to hurt some folks. If I had an ER Infuser spamming GDW + OoP from a necro, I bet I could easily spike over 500, maybe even 600, and average over 200 DPS. The proof is in the pics.

I have compared other ranger builds, and bows can offer quite a bit of damage (more than SoS, actually). Most of the people who are offering their thoughts do so with subjective opinions and anecdotal evidence. I want to see analysis and the evidence.

And as a digression, yes, barrage is the suck. MoP/Quickshot/DualShot/TripShot is a better combo to maintain a higher AoE DPS, and it is good for 30 seconds (unlike splinter weapon).

Thanks

Ugh · Jun 19, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drege_Icebow

I would like to know what qualifies as good DPS. I can easily spike 450 DPS and average 150 on the MoD. If I had an ER spamming GDW and SoH, and a necro spamming OoP, I could probably average over 200 DPS and spike for over 600.

What I would like to see is evidence. I see a lot of posts referencing subjective anecdotal experience, but not much in the way of hard analysis.

To address your point...

Melees can match or exceed that DPS while providing other benefits such as *AoE* damage, DW spam, consistent kds, good *SY!* upkeep, etc. Also, they have synergy with SoH, which is nice. The only real benefits a ranger has is range (which you partially threw away with PBS/ZS) and high elemental armor (which is nice but overall insignificant 'cause lolPvE).

As for your build...

This isn't meant to be aggressive, so sorry if it comes off that way.

That build will have energy issues for general PvE, even with a zealous bow. BUH has a terrible upkeep unless your party's about to be wiped. LR has a mediocre upkeep, even at full Deldrimor Rank.

I recommend this for single-target DPS (done with r6 asuran and a sundering recurve but vamp hornbow would probably be optimal):

since it has similar DPS, a minitank, great energy management, leet +3 regen, and longer range. Put in SY for needling when you need it. Also, needling isn't good in WiK since everything has nonridiculous armor, so replace it with something there.

For AoE, I'd go Barrage, EBSoH, SY, and 5 optionals.

Quote:

And as a digression, yes, barrage is the suck. MoP/Quickshot/DualShot/TripShot is a better combo to maintain a higher AoE DPS, and it is good for 30 seconds (unlike splinter weapon).

Splinter's good if you get a hero to spam it on you. Requires some microing, though. And splinter triggers MoP, so Barrage works quite well with both.

Also, don't the long recharges on Trip and Bishot get in the way?

maxxfury · Jun 19, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

BUH has a terrible upkeep unless your party's about to be wiped

Er infuuzers will frequently be hangin around at or under 50% in combat, and BUH also procs from friendly spirits ^ its far from difficult to make buh last double it normal duration and frequently outlast it recharge.

Other than that ^ xD

Xiaquin · Jun 20, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

After reading Drege's post I went out and did some testing, here's what I recorded:

Over 10 seconds, with:
Glass Arrows
Lightning Reflexes
Asuran Scan

Shortbow: 70-80 DPS
Longbow : 61-69 DPS

I then decided to simulate a spike. I used a shortbow at half range.

with:
Favorable Winds
I Am the Strongest!
Glass Arrows
Lightning Reflexes
Asuran Scan

Attack skills:
+Zojun's Shot
+Sundering Attack

175 DPS over 7 seconds. (stopped after IatS ran out)
147 DPS over 10 seconds (IatS + AS ended)

I then brought out my dervish to roughly compare, and while it's not fair to directly do that (and obviously why I won't post damage numbers), generally I found that higher DPS would be maintained over longer time through melee, but did not approach the high damage of the bow over shorter bursts. I find that important because targets go down fast in PvE, and you don't have to chase down enemies with a bow.

Taking into account the damage report, the melee time running up to and chasing down enemies, compared to the ranger's ability to attack successive enemies quickly, I personally feel the ranger has a single target advantage. This backs up how I've always felt when I play my ranger compared to my dervish. Yes I am aware a dervish update is on the horizon, but it's the only comparable melee profession I have.

These are not end-all, be-all results, just one player's recordings. Many factors need to be taken into consideration when comparing DPS. Critical hits radically alter DPS and results will vary.

(Bows were virtually identical. 15>50, Sundering, customized. Marksmanship is 13. Asura Rank 10, Norn Rank 8. Shortbow was fired at normal range, longbow was fired at casting range due to Asuran Scan.)

Drege_Icebow · Jun 20, 2010, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

To address your point...

Melees can match or exceed that DPS while providing other benefits such as *AoE* damage, DW spam, consistent kds, good *SY!* upkeep, etc. Also, they have synergy with SoH, which is nice. The only real benefits a ranger has is range (which you partially threw away with PBS/ZS) and high elemental armor (which is nice but overall insignificant 'cause lolPvE).

As for your build...

This isn't meant to be aggressive, so sorry if it comes off that way.

That build will have energy issues for general PvE, even with a zealous bow. BUH has a terrible upkeep unless your party's about to be wiped. LR has a mediocre upkeep, even at full Deldrimor Rank.

I recommend this for single-target DPS (done with r6 asuran and a sundering recurve but vamp hornbow would probably be optimal):

since it has similar DPS, a minitank, great energy management, leet +3 regen, and longer range. Put in SY for needling when you need it. Also, needling isn't good in WiK since everything has nonridiculous armor, so replace it with something there.

For AoE, I'd go Barrage, EBSoH, SY, and 5 optionals.

Splinter's good if you get a hero to spam it on you. Requires some microing, though. And splinter triggers MoP, so Barrage works quite well with both.

Also, don't the long recharges on Trip and Bishot get in the way?

Prepared shot with expert's focus in conjunction with Penetrating attack and Sundering attack owns. Most of what you critiqued is valid, with the exception of BuH for reasons already mentioned. The build I was using was by no means optimal for extended DPS, but it is optimal for generating spikes. If I can churn out 600 dmg in one second, and drop a mob in 3, why would you need AoE?

What practically works is more often better than what we can idealize on paper. For example, the Master of Damage is unable to track real world issues like running to mobs. Between each fight, a non-ranged melee will have to spend several seconds running to engage each monster. After they kill one, they have to run to another. If you have a 20 second engagement, this could easily be 5 seconds total. If you are averaging 200 dps over 20 seconds on the MoD, which is 4,000 dmg, go ahead and subtract 3,000 from that since you spent 5 seconds running around. Now, total DPS drops to 150.

A ranger does not have that problem because of the bow. As soon as I spike a monster down, I can just tab over to the next one and begin the next spike chain. Rinse and repeat from there.

As for energy concerns, go Mesmer secondary and use Ether Signet or Ether Lord.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 20, 2010, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Just one follow-up to something I missed. Needling shot deals armor-ignoring damage.

Amy Awien · Jun 20, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

That build will have energy issues for general PvE, even with a zealous bow.

It doesn't in actual use, so 'will have' is not an issue. Being able to take down a target fast and at range is a plus.

Quote:

For AoE, I'd go Barrage, EBSoH, SY, and 5 optionals.

Without teammates balling foes up, Barrage - and any short range AoE - is not so great, in HM critters tend to move a lot.

Which happens to be a plus for bows, because you don't waste time chasing targets, but with the Master of Damage rooted to his spot you'll never be able to get numbers on that effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drege_Icebow

Just one follow-up to something I missed. Needling shot deals armor-ignoring damage.

You're not the first one to miss that, Needling shot was considered a poor skill for a long time by a lot of people.