Curse

pakhavit · Jul 24, 2011, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Call me Captain Obvious but you're definitely doing something wrong. Terribly wrong.

Started Ranger main May 2006, gwamm November 2007. Finish all hard mode pretty much 95%+ with h&h exclude elite areas. So that's 3 heroes with no bu (aside cc or 4-leaf) or pve skills(maybe there were?). I know what I'm doing ;-; and it's sad when I see all other classes can do better. Ranger's interrupt in hm = lucky shot cos every dam skill is halve casting time before the nerf 2second thingies . Necro aoe condition> ranger condition. Dagger combo > bow damage -_-

It's not like it's so bad, but it certainly could be better.

<3 PvP Ranger though.

Maria The Princess · Jul 25, 2011, 09:26 AM // 09:26

aside from the generic B/P runs that were so popular i was mainly using my pet playing "summoner" style to spread conditions.

a pet would be like its own character if you didn't have to put attributes into BM to have it be effective. Necro taht is build to be an MM will have mainly all MM skills, it is a whole different category and you cant really compare it with rangers, unless they use their pets for body block and death nova.

Amy Awien · Jul 25, 2011, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pew

And that's what your heroes are for...

Yes, your heroes can do all the work. But you left out the main part, you know, about cooperative play. Remember how we used to form groups in outposts for missions, and even quests like going after Galrath. When is the last time you pugged (with a ranger) for a mission?

Quote:

Rangers can do big damage numbers ...

No they can't. Only Monks have less damage to bring. Utility, what is that, SY? Shutdown? Mesmers >>> Ranger. And then, even if there was something else they were best at, that does not matter as PvE is only big damage.

Wenspire · Jul 25, 2011, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Rangers (playing as a Ranger) can do big "AoE" damage only when buffed by Splinter Weapon, and using a multi-arrow attack. I stressed AoE because I feel that type of damage is more important in PvE than single-target damage.

Just my $0.02...

cataphract · Jul 26, 2011, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by pakhavit

It's not like it's so bad, but it certainly could be better.

That's still miles away from the first comment and I quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pakhavit

Ranger sucks QQ

The only thing* that ever bothered me about rangers was the fact that they were able to inflict a multitude of conditions except the most important one - Deep Wound. And it was that little fact that made me play my ranger a lot less than I wanted to. I was very happy once Enraged Lunge was buffed and given Deep Wound capability. Then again, I always preferred single-target damage over AoE.

*There was that whole issue of not being able to set stuff on fire but we finally got that with NF and its Burning Arrow.

Amazing Stroopwafel · Jul 27, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09

IMO rangers need a few fixes/changes

Kick off with drawing nature rituals equal to binding rituals in terms of PvE casting time.
preparations need a shorter casting time (3/4th sec)
Barrage (& volley) should not remove preparations
Expertise should include stances (and PvE Traps <_<)

Xiaquin · Jul 27, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Stroopwafel

Kick off with drawing nature rituals equal to binding rituals in terms of PvE casting time.

Expertise should include stances (and PvE Traps <_<)

Even with fast activation, NRs are pretty irrelevant and/or can easily work against your party.

I'm not sure if you're wanting specific stances moved to Expertise, but there are plenty of that skill type already under the attribute. I know it's easy to forget in PvE where only a small percentage of skills are even worth looking at.

Amazing Stroopwafel · Jul 27, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Even with fast activation, NRs are pretty irrelevant and/or can easily work against your party.

I'm not sure if you're wanting specific stances moved to Expertise, but there are plenty of that skill type already under the attribute. I know it's easy to forget in PvE where only a small percentage of skills are even worth looking at.

It makes all the difference in the world whether it's viable to include NR's in your build. Right now it's not because the fight is over before you've thrown it down. Even if you think it's irrelevant it will get some never used skills back on my bar and it's only fair in the light of the ritualist buff.

Including stances would further emphasise the synergy between the ranger and melee classes, there are also some interesting combinations with the mesmer class here. I agree this change wouldn't matter all THAT much, none of these combinations would be significant but the little bits would help class viability without making anything OP.
In a way you could also say shouts/chants would fit expertise for that reason as well but perhaps I'm too much stuck in the mindset of the days when expertise effected all but spells. Still a bit mad they took that away

No comments on the other two points?

Fay Vert · Jul 27, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Ranger stances are affected by expertise anyhow, warrior stances are mostly either 5e or adrenaline, Mesmer stances last forever and assassin stances are also 5e. So there is not a lot of difference in making expertise affect all stances.

Except Deadly Paradox, which is one of the main reasons GW is broken. What other stances had you in mind?

Yes to PvE traps and spirits, but that won't fix ranger.

Putting a brain in pets would help.

Xiaquin · Jul 27, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amazing Stroopwafel

It makes all the difference in the world whether it's viable to include NR's in your build. Right now it's not because the fight is over before you've thrown it down. Even if you think it's irrelevant it will get some never used skills back on my bar and it's only fair in the light of the ritualist buff.

Certainly activation times need to be brought in line with the ritualist in PvE, but that alone won't change much. The devs need to own up to the antiquated design of a skill type that's just proven impractical in PvE. A core mechanic shouldn't ask the player (and accompanying party) to run a gimmick. Even if the numbers were changed, some skills (not to name any) are so out of whack in PvE that there's no hope for them but functionality changes.

Quote:

Including stances would further emphasise the synergy between the ranger and melee classes

Stances are common in Expertise; most are not too useful in PvE. IMS isn't unless you're melee, and even then you're sitting on long recharge due to the built-in defense power. Expert's Dexterity and Practiced Stance aren't worth their elite status, either. Once again it comes down to functionality changes. The stances are there and they need to be changed.

Quote:

No comments on the other two points?

I agree on preparations and to a lesser extent Barrage, but IMO it's an overrated skill that's easily exploited, nothing more. I'd want to see Marksmanship get a facelift before the meta trash gets any more powerful.

spun ducky · Jul 28, 2011, 08:38 AM // 08:38

The 5 big issues that need to be fixed with ranger in pve come down to this:

1.Line of sight: I am not saying make regular arrows go through walls but maybe change a spirit to allow this possibility. If this isn't changed you will never ever see rangers become a spiker in the current meta builds for elite zones.

2.AoE damage: Which is where the ranger just plain fails. Splinter barrage works ok but it suffers from the the first issue i listed and a ritualist can do it better.

3.Nature Rituals: The majority of nature rituals have nearly worthless effects in pve. They were all designed around causing pressure or forcing an opposing team to play within your build limitations. They are almost all PvP in design but alternates really should exist for pve.

4.Traps: Traps they sit in the same boat as the rituals. If there was more to them without the easy interruption and just basic damage for the most part they could be useful. A example lets revamp weakness trap. if any target foes are within the area of this trap when triggered they can't cause more than 10% damage to their enemies for 5-10 seconds. The cool down and cost would have to reflect equivalents such as a ST rit running shelter or other similar setups.

5.Preparations: Preparations are one of the signature yet worthless things to a ranger when it comes to end game content. They need to be put more in line with flash enchantments because you spend a huge amount of time casting preps that don't even do much of anything at least for pve's sake.

Conclusion:
The last 3 would be needed to fully overhaul the class which are the least likely to happen but the first 2 are needed if you want to ever see rangers being considered for spiking in end game content. I love my ranger but I even as someone who has made a lot of very powerful solo builds for them have to admit they are very limited now a days.

cataphract · Jul 28, 2011, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Arrows going through walls should be reserved for Margonites and Luxon Turtles. But fixing obstacle issues after several years would be great.

Pew · Aug 03, 2011, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Yes, your heroes can do all the work. But you left out the main part, you know, about cooperative play. Remember how we used to form groups in outposts for missions, and even quests like going after Galrath. When is the last time you pugged (with a ranger) for a mission?

I often do for the Zquests thanks. And pugs aren't the only community either. I go on vanquishes and the like often with guildies (Which is kind of odd considering it's a PvP guild.) Sure, I often just resort to using heroes, because I can force them to run things that will be useful, something which is difficult with pugs. As a group, we need to work together, as a team, supporting each other. That's what the community is about, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No they can't. Only Monks have less damage to bring. Utility, what is that, SY? Shutdown? Mesmers >>> Ranger. And then, even if there was something else they were best at, that does not matter as PvE is only big damage.

All of those free slots on a Ranger bar are potential utility. Instead of people trying to buff themselves and complaining that it's not working as well as "X does more damage why doesn't this", why not try things that are going to benefit the entire party in some way other than killing things faster (directly at least). EBSoH, "SY!", Technobabble all seem to spring to mind. As for more proffesion specific options, as I know that the fact that they're all PvE skills will be mentioned, Infuriating Heat (Dervishes, Warriors, Paragons, and consta "SY!" if it wasn't beforehand), Interrupts (Yes I know Mesmers, but if it's a human they're not going to hit everything, and if it's a hero they can't prioritise, so they get rellegated to spamming AoE rupts/damage). There's nothing like neutralising a bosses most potent skill with a well-timed interrupt.

But hey, I guess that's just me. I enjoy playing the game knowing that I'm helping partly support the party. I'm a midliner after all, it's what I should be doing. Hell, even when I'm running a DPS build I still carry at least one interrupt and "SY!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Expert's Dexterity and Practiced Stance aren't worth their elite status

Practiced Stance sure, good in theory; in practice nothing worth using it with.
Experts Dexterity? A maintainable 33% IAS with +2 Marks boost as a normal skill? lol

Xiaquin · Aug 03, 2011, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pew

Experts Dexterity? A maintainable 33% IAS with +2 Marks boost as a normal skill? lol

I didn't necessarily say ED should be a normal skill, although it easily could and it would not imbalance the ranger, PvE side. I don't think there is such a thing as PvE balance anymore; there's nothing sacred to protect.

Amy Awien · Aug 03, 2011, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pew

.... That's what the community is about, right?

The community doesn't need rangers for their parties so they don't pick rangers. Leaves heroes, and yes, guild groups.

Quote:

All of those free slots on a Ranger bar are potential utility.

You can bring three PvE skills only. SY needs you to attack, a lot, which rules out the effective use of other utility skills. But your talking to the wrong ranger, I do bring such skills that buff the party, when going with heroes. The truth is anyone could bring them (if pugs were smart enough to understand them) and there is very little, or nothing, in the Ranger's skill arsenal that is worthwhile, or requires a ranger primary. Interrupts are lost for rangers, they were useless in HM before the mesmer update because of the ridiculous cast times in HM, they are useless after the update compared to what a mesmer can bring.

Sure, you can do a lot as a ranger, and your heroes will be happy with you, but to participate in the type of play this game was originally intended for they are just a bit underpowered.

cataphract · Aug 03, 2011, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Has anyone suggested Barrage interrupts and dazes for 20 seconds yet? And pets should get AoE attacks based on their species. A Crane could get 33% IAS and AoE slashing damage like 100b, a Bear could have a massive KD plus deep wound on his target. Tiger's Fury should last longer, boost IAS of both you and the pet and have that /tiger emote Charr use on noobs.

Lyra Padfoot · Aug 03, 2011, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Only my opinion, but with a nearly 6yr old ranger as my primary PvE character, I haven't come across anything that my ranger can't do with the right group - be that heroes or humans, HM or NM.

I am 48/50 in my HoM (because I am too tight to buy Obby Armor and haven't gotten round to the Deep or Urgoz yet).

Sure I have used non Ranger skills, but thats what they are there for - to be used. As several others have commented the Ranger is not a frontline damage dealer. They are there to support their team and they can do that admirably, with or without non-ranger skills.

Having said that, sure I would love to see some changes to the Ranger so that people can fall in love with them again. I would like to see the Ranger able to BE a Ranger and really express the essence of what people see a ranger doing, interacting effectively with animals and the nature around them.

One of the ideas above and which has been mentioned before is the ability to call in wandering "pets" to help on short term basis, I like this, it supports my view of what a Ranger is about.

I think the preparation time for rituals & traps is sensible and they form part of the essence of what it is to be a Ranger, but they do seem to fall short of being as effective as a ritualists binding rituals. I dont want to get into comparing ritualists to rangers, but to me, part of the essence of a ritualist is raising a spirit to help the team and the essence of a ranger should include the ability to help in a similar way to a similar level of effectiveness.

At the end of the day, it is unlikely that we will ever see a change to the Ranger, but one can dream!!

Xiaquin · Aug 03, 2011, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyra Padfoot

/snip

The ranger can do a lot, the issue is that what it natively produces is antiquated, and generally outputs low numbers while dealing with oppressive skill stats such as cost, duration and recharge. Speed and staying power alone would make a big difference.

Amy Awien · Aug 04, 2011, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyra Padfoot

One of the ideas above and which has been mentioned before is the ability to call in wandering "pets" to help on short term basis,

Heh, there used to be a skill that did that, appropriately called Otyugh's Cry. But the 'calling on wildlife for help' part got replaced by your companion becoming unblockable.

bj91x · Sep 16, 2011, 01:22 PM // 13:22

In addition to shorter casting times for preps and spirits as mentioned by so many players, I'd like to see changes made to pets.

Currently, a pet can only queue one pet attack skill at a time. Make it so that a pet can queue more than one pet attack skill at a time. As is now, it's almost pointless to take more than one fast recharging pet attack skill.

Another change I'd like to see is a pet's inability to attack a target fast. After a pet reaches a target, it takes some time before the pet starts attacking the target. Either increase the movement speeds of pets to counter this, or remove this delay.

There are so many interesting pet attack skills in the game. However, due to the problems I mentioned above, these skills are basically useless.