Curse

Rence · May 20, 2011, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Well I have a ranger for Proph and a dagger R/A for Factions so I wanted a different style for the Proph ranger.

Khomet: Thanks! Actually I was playing with Prep Shot and it does seem to be the way to go with RTW+Penetrating+Crossfire+Prep Shot. I was able to consistently spam my skills especially Penetrating.

That build looks nice and definitely makes Dual/Triple Shot more effective. Now I'll just have to go to EoTN to get the PVE skills.

Edit: Actually, after reviewing it again, seems like IATS will be used up probably within 10 seconds (Dual Shot+Triple Shot=5 attacks with 3 attacks left). After the initial spike you'd have to wait for IATS, Dual and Triple Shot to recharge and use Prep Shot and auto attacks in the meantime. Would it be better to swap in Penetrating+Sundering? Though this will definitely eat up energy so maybe Penetrating/Sundering + Crossfire/Needling?

Xiaquin · May 20, 2011, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Barrage actually isn't a bad skill even vs. a single target. At 12 Marksmanship, it still provides a bonus of like +17 with a 1-sec cooldown and at the cost of 5en (before Exp factored in).

The problem with Barrage is that you have to keep spamming it as your attack skill, creating downtime as well as energy burn. With GA, you can auto-attack for the same damage and then use an attack, opening the door for Triple, Dual and Needling that need the boost to get off the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rence

The problem I see with GA, Expert's Dexterity or Burning Arrows is that I would eventually run out of energy after the first enemy even with a zealous bow (typically the case for me).

You shouldn't be running out of energy without excessive skill spamming. Could you give an idea of what your builds are and what your attributes look like?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Add to that the fact that Penetrating has +dmg and AP, while Dual Shot has a damage penalty, and there's no question that Penetrating is better for single-target packet spam.

On their own, yes SA/PA are effective because they deliver a high damage packet to the multi-shots weaker spread. However, keep in mind that anything done to your attacks (preparations, personal buffs, support shouts/hexes, vampiric string) gets applied to each arrow. So while the multi-shots start out feeble, apply enough *oomph* to your attacks and they eventually overcome and exceed the harder single-arrow attacks at a cheaper cost.

Since SA/PA can drain energy if over-exerted, and a zealous bow only helps so much, that leads to energy management, which will bloat the bar and/or limit options.

Rence · May 20, 2011, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

You shouldn't be running out of energy without excessive skill spamming. Could you give an idea of what your builds are and what your attributes look like?

Thing is I do tend to spam skills as much as possible

. So for my style of play if I have for example both Penetrating and Sundering I quickly run out of energy.

When I tested dps with RTW, Penetrating, Sundering, Prep Shot, I was quickly running out of energy so I switched out Sundering for Crossfire which made it more spam friendly.

Quote:

On their own, yes SA/PA are effective because they deliver a high damage packet to the multi-shots weaker spread. However, keep in mind that anything done to your attacks (preparations, personal buffs, support shouts/hexes, vampiric string) gets applied to each arrow. So while the multi-shots start out feeble, apply enough *oomph* to your attacks and they eventually overcome and exceed the harder single-arrow attacks at a cheaper cost.

Considering Kohmet's sample build though, wouldn't it be the case that IATS would end fairly quickly with Dual and Triple Shot and Find Their Weakness would only affect one of two/three arrows? Then after the initial spike, you'd pretty much be waiting for IATS, Dual and Triple shot to recharge.

Just pure conjecture though

. Can't really know without testing.

Amy Awien · May 20, 2011, 07:46 AM // 07:46

IATS basically adds 160 damage per 20 seconds (@max rank), or 8 DPS. Bring it if you have a free PvE slot available for it.

Khomet Si Netjer · May 20, 2011, 10:44 AM // 10:44

IatS wears off after 8 shots, so it won't last for the entire duration... but is there anything better to replace it with?

re: penetrating, sundering, etc. some people like being able to spam them constantly, and possibly they might show higher dps over time versus triple/dual/forked. however, triple/dual/forked will deliver more damage up front, and since this type of build is a spiky single-target build I think they are better. It's true that the recharge on triple and dual are too long, but Forked Arrow has a 5s recharge so you might make use of that instead. If you use things like GDW, Splinter Weapon, Brutal Weapon, IatS, EBSOH you can get plenty of damage without using enchantments. I like using Judge's Insight and Orders so this is definitely a tradeoff.

If you are really set on high single target damage then melee may be the best option. Aside from better and higher damage skills you have Strength of Honor to boost damage further, and melee has plenty of AoE damage (death blossom, whirlwind attack, scythe) as well.

Wenspire · May 20, 2011, 11:02 AM // 11:02

You can queue up IatS prior to battle, right? So technically you can open up with 16 shots with bonuses if so.

Depending the rest of your teams composition (armor ignoring or non), EbonHonor could likely be more beneficial than the shout as it's benefit is aoe.

Xiaquin · May 20, 2011, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rence

Thing is I do tend to spam skills as much as possible

. So for my style of play if I have for example both Penetrating and Sundering I quickly run out of energy.

That's exactly what you should be doing with those attack skills because it's what they're designed for, so you're not doing it wrong. But you're realizing the cost associated with being skill happy means you need to make some sacrifice.

Quote:

Considering Kohmet's sample build though, wouldn't it be the case that IATS would end fairly quickly with Dual and Triple Shot and Find Their Weakness would only affect one of two/three arrows? Then after the initial spike, you'd pretty much be waiting for IATS, Dual and Triple shot to recharge.

Iats runs out but as Wenspire notes you can pre-buff and go into a fight to get two uses out of it since it has no duration. I use that as a secondary buff. Ebsoh is your best primary (make sure to include allies that can benefit too!). I definitely recommend maxing norn and vanguard titles if you're serious about DPS.

The thing with Iats is to keep tabs on your attacks and get the most out of it. Time it with Triple or Dual Shots rather than burn it on auto-attacks. When it goes down, it won't break your damage. The loss of Asuran Scan simply means you should go to your heroes for extra help (Splinter Weapon, Orders, paragon shouts, etc.).

I do see that without Needling you need to keep your foot down to finish enemies off, and that's the main difference. SA/PA will need to go the distance while TS/DS are spikes while Needling offers a cheap spam.

Forked does nothing while enchanted or hexed, I don't see the point in trying to manage around it.

Rence · May 21, 2011, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Alright, thanks for the advice guys, I'll try the build once I get the skills.

Chthon · May 21, 2011, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

On their own, yes SA/PA are effective because they deliver a high damage packet to the multi-shots weaker spread. However, keep in mind that anything done to your attacks (preparations, personal buffs, support shouts/hexes, vampiric string) gets applied to each arrow. So while the multi-shots start out feeble, apply enough *oomph* to your attacks and they eventually overcome and exceed the harder single-arrow attacks at a cheaper cost.

Read again. SA/PA adds more arrows/sec than Dual Shot. You're making an argument for using SA/PA over Dual Shot; you just don't know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

IatS wears off after 8 shots, so it won't last for the entire duration... but is there anything better to replace it with?

I hate that skill with a passion. The added DPS is so low that many non-PvE skills add more DPS. Heck, if you're not running R/W for SY!, might as well divert adrenaline to Dodge This.

Quote:

however, triple/dual/forked will deliver more damage up front,

Triple will. Dual/Forked probably will not. Maybe if you had PA/SA is only 0.75 sec slower in delivering the same number of arrows over the first 4.75 sec before it recharges and pulls ahead. It does enough extra damage to more than make up for it.

Quote:

Forked Arrow

Is an awful skill that needs a complete rework. There is no decent team that doesn't use enchants. "Hey guys, don't PS me so my Forked Arrow will work. And also, no Orders please"? Right... Even if Orders was the only thing you lost, it would still hurt your DPS so badly that the trade off wouldn't be even remotely worth it.

----

And all of this, of course, is secondary to the fact that Barrage/Volley is simply superior to any of the single-target options when it comes to raw DPS.

Xiaquin · May 21, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Read again. SA/PA adds more arrows/sec than Dual Shot. You're making an argument for using SA/PA over Dual Shot; you just don't know it.

I wasn't trying to make the case for DS, but certainly GA/TS+DS/Needling or at least GA/TS/Needling. SA/PA is very costly. NS is what really complements DS/TS so well and pushes DPS (which as I've tried to explain, isn't a good long-term measurement for ranged attacks).

Quote:

I hate that skill with a passion. The added DPS is so low that many non-PvE skills add more DPS. Heck, if you're not running R/W for SY!, might as well divert adrenaline to Dodge This.

I'm curious about these powerful non-PvE skills you mention that add more than 20 damage to an attack. Could you list them?

Quote:

And all of this, of course, is secondary to the fact that Barrage/Volley is simply superior to any of the single-target options when it comes to raw DPS.

Well, everyone has their preferences, but let's not go spreading lies (or at least half-truths) as fact.

ranglon · May 26, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

I'm curious as to why no one seems to use marksman's wager. I've been playing as a ranger for 3 years now and it has to be the elite that I keep coming back to. At first I was ticked at the change in asuran scan but then I realized that it provided great synergy with marksman's wager because your arrows can't miss or be blocked. You end up being able to maintain your energy level. Let me know what you think.

Kunder · May 26, 2011, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranglon

I'm curious as to why no one seems to use marksman's wager. I've been playing as a ranger for 3 years now and it has to be the elite that I keep coming back to. At first I was ticked at the change in asuran scan but then I realized that it provided great synergy with marksman's wager because your arrows can't miss or be blocked. You end up being able to maintain your energy level. Let me know what you think.

Giving up both your preparation and your elite slot, it doesn't matter how much energy you have. You won't doing that much damage. I could probably take a skill bar completely empty except for a pet and Enraged Lunge and easily out damage your whole bar. Nothing you do will let you make AoE like a Barrager + Splinter Weapon, and even if all you want to do is spam skills on single targets Glass Arrows is better because you deal +20 damage on every shot.

Chthon · May 27, 2011, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

DPS (which as I've tried to explain, isn't a good long-term measurement for ranged attacks).
...
I'm curious about these powerful non-PvE skills you mention that add more than 20 damage to an attack. Could you list them?

If you don't even understand the concept of DPS, I fear this is pointless....

Anyway, remember that IATS is 160 damage on a 20 sec recharge. That's 8DPS. That's not hard to beat with a plain attack skill (even sucky ranger attack skills). And that's max rank; It falls off pretty fast if you're not getting the full 8 hits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranglon

I'm curious as to why no one seems to use marksman's wager.

1. It's elite.

2. If you absolutely need to spend your elite for e-management, Prep Shot is usually better.

Xiaquin · May 27, 2011, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If you don't even understand the concept of DPS, I fear this is pointless....

Anyway, remember that IATS is 160 damage on a 20 sec recharge. That's 8DPS. That's not hard to beat with a plain attack skill (even sucky ranger attack skills). And that's max rank; It falls off pretty fast if you're not getting the full 8 hits.

That is interesting math there. You are certain this is how you think? I will leave you to it, then, don't let me stand in the way...as long as you're happy with how you play, that is what really matters in the end.

Voodoo Rage · May 27, 2011, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If you don't even understand the concept of DPS, I fear this is pointless....

Anyway, remember that IATS is 160 damage on a 20 sec recharge. That's 8DPS. That's not hard to beat with a plain attack skill (even sucky ranger attack skills). And that's max rank; It falls off pretty fast if you're not getting the full 8 hits.

Geez, you might as well throw up a Vampirism spirit, even that will out DPS IATS.

akhil · May 31, 2011, 12:59 PM // 12:59

I was just wondering, if you're throwing up Glass Arrows then spamming PA>SA>NS where do you guys get your energy from?

Chthon · May 31, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by akhil

I was just wondering, if you're throwing up Glass Arrows then spamming PA>SA>NS where do you guys get your energy from?

To a large extent, that build doesn't work and never did, precisely because of the energy problems.

High expertise and a zealous bow help a little. Beyond that, you're left with two not-very good options for non-elite e-management: Scavenger Strike and Body Shot.

Xiaquin · May 31, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Geez, you might as well throw up a Vampirism spirit, even that will out DPS IATS.

...

Just to be clear, it is possible to send more than one arrow per second down range, it's called a spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by akhil

I was just wondering, if you're throwing up Glass Arrows then spamming PA>SA>NS where do you guys get your energy from?

As said above that will cause problems. PA/SA needs to be combined with effective e-management due to constant 10e (base cost) spamming. NS here is pointless and won't be doing much damage.

GA is the foundation to making skills like DS/TS/NS worthwhile because the damage added is armor-ignoring. Combine with Ebsoh, Vampiric String and Orders (Iats if you've nothing better to do) for a good spike and spam combination. Note that this isn't the only way to make use of GA, just the way I feel is most effective because it doesn't rely on AoE, like Barrage, and doesn't corner a build into using e-management, which on top of Expertise is stifling to put up with, IMO.

Long-term DPS on a ranger is a waste of calculation. Kill enemies as quickly as you can, that's all you need to look at. If you're spending too much effort and energy into doing that, it's time not well-spent.

Kunder · May 31, 2011, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Death Blossom spam w/ EL pet is the only thing a Ranger does that can be said to output impressive damage. Nothing else is really worthwhile.

Rence · Jun 01, 2011, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Currently, I'm playing with a variation of Khomet's suggested build and am enjoying it. I swapped out GFTE, FTW, Triple Shot and Expert's Focus for Dodge This!, PA, RTW and a res (partly because I don't have enough faction and access to the NF skill trainers on the character yet). No energy issues, Expertise makes Prep Shot readily available at 3en and since Marksmanship is a must for bow rangers, the energy gain coupled with a zealous bow lets you keep spamming. Only downside is I have to keep watching my buffs and maintaining EBSoH demands some attention (I'll need to farm more rank), but the build is nonetheless very effective.