Curse

Swingline · Dec 23, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Complete oversight on my part. I don't even run forked arrow in the IA build I have saved. When I do play my ranger I tend to go Prep Shot as it holds a special place on my ranger. Forked Arrow is not needed really. HM mobs are dead by the time you get IA,TS and DS off.

FW is an ok skill but not great. In most scenarios the mobs are standing still to cause arrows to strafe and the +6 damage is marginal at best. The cast time is downright annoying and that means everything to this skill. A person is not going to play with a skill if it's a pain in the ass and not making a big enough difference.

Coast · Dec 23, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

3adjacent foes, with this they actually mean the foe your hitting + 3others adjacent from it.
Thats why u see 20packets of dmg from splinter

Splinter Barrage · Dec 25, 2011, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Favwinds is nice but a pain to set each time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

The cast time is downright annoying and that means everything to this skill. A person is not going to play with a skill if it's a pain in the ass and not making a big enough difference.

I just made the most awesome discovery: Favorable Winds counts as a spirit. Why is this so awesome? Because that means it works with Summon Spirits and Spirit Siphon.

With Summon, you can drag Winds around with you, (1) negating the need to recreate it often and (2) allowing you to change its location and heal it should it come under attack (which it shouldn't if placed properly, but you can correct your placement is the point). It has a long lifespan (>2 mins) and recovers energy quickly (<20 secs before you can completely fill up again, at least if you're not wearing Radiant runes), so with Siphon (conveniently a Channeling spell) you also have a perpetual source of energy, freeing you to use Vampiric again. Vamp + Winds = +11 dmg per arrow, making Barrage do half again as much, and doubling the bonus from Volley. ^_^;; (In my build I replaced Flesh and Distracting, since heroes do those two jobs better anyway.)

Favorable Winds enables the use of a flatbow, buffs your group damage, provides a source of energy, and can be transported with you. That's four benefits in one skill (even if the latter two also require other skills to take advantage).--IMHO, skills pretty much don't get better than that!

Wenspire · Dec 25, 2011, 06:19 AM // 06:19

I would consider taking FavWinds if it had a reasonably quick activation time. That's what really kills it for me.

RE using SpiritSiphon+SummonSpirit+FavWinds... it is a nice option for EN if you do not have an SoS or STprot rit in your party to Siphon from. But that is a lot of skillslots to dedicate.

Splinter Barrage · Dec 25, 2011, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I would consider taking FavWinds if it had a reasonably quick activation time. That's what really kills it for me.

Summon is the solution here. With it, you only need to create Winds every 2 mins or more; most of the time, it now has a 1/4 sec activation, and you can't beat that (except with a stance), thus laziness ceases to be a valid excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

RE using SpiritSiphon [. . .] it is a nice option for EN if you do not have an SoS or STprot rit in your party to Siphon from.

If you have a Rit hero, that's even more sources of energy. (You can even steal energy from enemy spirits/nature rituals, and in HM they have more than you.) It recharges in 3 secs; you can freely siphon whenever you need energy. For a build that already uses 10-12 Channeling, Siphon becomes the energy management solution. You won't need zealous anymore, even as a swap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

But that is a lot of skillslots to dedicate.

With a Barrage build, those slots are easily available, since there's no prep (functionally FW is your prep, and much longer-lasting than your typical prep at that [= recast less often, speaking of annoyance]) or other bow attacks. It all depends on whether you consider a vampiric flatbow worth having. It's nice being able to stand behind the rest of your party and outside aggro range (increases your survivability yet further), have machine gun refire and arrows that travel as quickly as those of a recurve, and even a dmg bonus.--With FW, a flatbow is the best of all worlds, like all the other bow types combined.

I wish I'd known about this before! Back when I was considering using Body Shot + some other skill, I never imagined the solution lay in a skill I was already bringing just for my flatbow. Or back when I was using Serpent's Quickness to decrease FW's recharge, I never imagined I could simply teleport it with me! One less skill than previous experiments, as convenient as could be and with additional benefits.--I know I'm a little excitable sometimes, but as far as I'm concerned the abovementioned trio of skills is gold

, as it frees you up a lot. (Even against single targets, where zealous would lose its effectiveness, you always have energy because Winds is there; even if monsters run away you can keep zapping them with your increased range, etc.) By all means, try it out and see what I mean.

Amy Awien · Dec 26, 2011, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Three skills just to gain 6 energy every 20 seconds? Might be more frequent but targeting spirits mid-fight, usually/preferable placed behind the back-line sounds like a bad plan for real application.

Kunder · Dec 26, 2011, 06:34 PM // 18:34

FW + Summon Spirits is too many skill slots for a piddly +6 damage, unless you are running an all-ranger group. If you want a real damage increase take IAS + Volley and it will do closer to +50% damage, which includes all the other buffs you may be running.

Enemies dodge arrows approximately never in PvE, so there is no real benefit from faster arrow travel.

Siphon spirit is a horrible skill to take on a ranger in terms of getting back energy with only 1 spirit. If you have another rit's spirits who aren't being drained it wouldn't be TOO bad. Unfortunately then you have a rit who probably isn't using splinter weapon and is therefore bad. So yeah, just use zealous because its made for multi hit attacks and keep your secondary open.

OTOH another spirit for the rits to drain energy from can't hurt. Not sure how much extra it really helps though, rit heroes will stand next to their spirits and won't move towards yours. Probably a fairly negligible benefit unless you micro them.

Splinter Barrage · Dec 29, 2011, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

FW + Summon Spirits is too many skill slots for a piddly +6 damage[.]

First off, extra damage is not the reason I run it, just a bonus. Second, that's +6 per arrow (so effectively 6 x 6), and you are also able to use vampiric now so that's +11 per arrow, as previously stated--which is not an inconsiderable bonus. (If it were, people would never use EBSoH.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

If you want a real damage increase take IAS + Volley and it will do closer to +50% damage, which includes all the other buffs you may be running.

FYI, this is the build I've been running:

Splinter Weapon
Dwarven Stability
Lightning Reflexes
Barrage
Volley
Spirit Siphon
Summon Spirits
Favorable Winds

As you can see, it has Volley and an IAS already. . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Siphon spirit is a horrible skill to take on a ranger in terms of getting back energy with only 1 spirit.

I have not run into any energy problems with this build: I am able to maintain almost my max energy all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Three skills just to gain 6 energy every 20 seconds? Might be more frequent but targeting spirits mid-fight, usually/preferable placed behind the back-line sounds like a bad plan for real application.

Only 2 of the skills are for energy gain, and the yield is more like 12 energy every 10 seconds (or half that in half the time, if you want). As to targeting mid-fight, (1) you don't have to select anything but the skill (it automatically picks a spirit) and (2) it has a 1/4 sec cast time, so it really doesn't interrupt the flow of a fight. Finally, Winds is always close to me because I'm the one who makes/summons it (and with my flatbow I also stand in the back).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Enemies dodge arrows approximately never in PvE, so there is no real benefit from faster arrow travel.

This is simply false. Monsters frequently dodge arrows from a flatbow without the flight time buff. If you doubt this, try it. (And if it weren't the case, why would you ever use a shortbow? Arguments about being "within shouting range," etc. are meaningless, since you can simply walk closer if you want.)

Kunder · Dec 29, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter Barrage

First off, extra damage is not the reason I run it, just a bonus. Second, that's +6 per arrow (so effectively 6 x 6), and you are also able to use vampiric now so that's +11 per arrow, as previously stated--which is not an inconsiderable bonus.

Anyone can carry a vamp bow, that doesn't count. Furthermore its simply +6 damage. Hitting with all 6 arrows happens almost never, and if it does then +36 total damage means nothing because Splinter Weapon just did +250 damage.

Quote:

FYI, this is the build I've been running:

Splinter Weapon
Dwarven Stability
Lightning Reflexes
Barrage
Volley
Spirit Siphon
Summon Spirits
Favorable Winds

Stop running Splinter Weapon on yourself, its bad. Its almost 2x as powerful on a rit primary.

Quote:

As you can see, it has Volley and an IAS already. . . .

But not EBSoH? Because that gives +15 damage, and it gives it to your entire (caster/ranged) team. OTOH FW is only +6 damage, takes two slots, only works for rangers, and sometimes gives enemies a boost.

Quote:

More like 12 energy (16 in HM) every 10 seconds (or half that in half the time, if you want), and Winds is always close to me because I'm the one who makes/summons it. As to targeting mid-fight, (1) you don't have to select anything but the skill (it automatically picks a spirit) and (2) it has a 1/4 sec cast time, so it really doesn't interrupt the flow of a fight.

Have you even used Spirit Siphon or are you just theorycrafting? Your sprits give no extra energy in HM. It also costs 5e to cast, so you get max 7e in HM (Not sure why you run 11 channeling when the breakpoint is at 10, but w/e). And it takes over 20s for spirits to regain their energy.

Quote:

This is simply false. Enemies frequently dodge arrows from a flatbow without the flight time buff. If you doubt this, try it. (And if it weren't the case, why would you ever use a shortbow? Arguments about being "within shouting range," etc. are meaningless, since you can simply walk closer if you want.)

Frequently? I could give you maybe 5% of arrows dodged max. Thats nothing.

Splinter Barrage · Dec 29, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Anyone can carry a vamp bow, that doesn't count.

Where have you been? The past several pages of discussion in this thread have centered around (or at least kept returning to) whether a zealous string is "necessary" in a splinter-barrage build; my whole reason for posting this alternative build is to show that you can get away with vampiric if you have an alternative source of energy, and that Winds can actually provide this, in addition to its other benefits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Furthermore its simply +6 damage. Hitting with all 6 arrows happens almost never, and if it does then +36 total damage means nothing because Splinter Weapon just did +250 damage.

+36 isn't "nothing": the total would then be +286, which > 250.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

But not EBSoH? Because that gives +15 damage, and it gives it to your entire (caster/ranged) team. OTOH FW is only +6 damage, takes two slots, only works for rangers, and sometimes gives enemies a boost.

EB costs way more, lasts a fraction of the time, and that damage buff is all it does (whereas Winds does other things too). You could also no longer afford to use vampiric, so discount that bonus. And it doesn't affect casters (it would have to be in melee range to affect anyone besides you). Finally, Winds itself takes 1 slot like any other skill. . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Stop running Splinter Weapon on yourself, its bad. Its almost 2x as powerful on a rit primary.

Why not run it on both? It won't be on me constantly either way, and I want it on me as often as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

(Not sure why you run 11 channeling when the breakpoint is at 10, but w/e).

(Previously discussed in this thread.) Same reason you say a Rit primary is better. In any case, where else should I put the attribute points in a Barrage build? My build is nothing but attacks and buffs; if I didn't bring the buffs (Splinter, Winds, etc.), I could bring exactly 1 skill (Barrage) and maybe try to play a support role with the other 7 slots. ^_^;; I'd rather be doing as much damage as possible all the time. I also prefer to be as independent as possible, and I don't always play with heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Have you even used Spirit Siphon or are you just theorycrafting?

(I had already edited out the HM comment before you posted that.) Yes, I am currently playing with the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

And it takes over 20s for spirits to regain their energy.

Only to regain it completely; you don't have to wait for them to fully recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Frequently? I could give you maybe 5% of arrows dodged max. Thats nothing.

Again, why play with a shortbow then? And call me a stickler, but even 5% is more than I want to miss. If Winds keeps me from missing at all, then it's worthwhile IMHO.

. . . As you can see, these are nuanced points we are discussing: whether having more range, doing slightly more damage, and being able to gain enough energy to offset lacking zealous, is all worthwhile is of course up to you and your playing style (you might not even be using Barrage). I think each of those things is slightly nicer than the alternative (a zealous shortbow and an interrupt and/or res in your skillbar), and I just want to share my discovery that it's possible to have them. I'm also looking for alternative energy management ideas, so I'm hoping some responses will contain such ideas instead of simply dissing mine.

Please bear all this in mind if you wish to contribute, OK? Thanks.

Swingline · Dec 29, 2011, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter Barrage

Why not run it on both? It won't be on me constantly either way, and I want it on me as often as possible.

(Previously discussed in this thread.) Same reason you say a Rit primary is better. In any case, where else should I put the attribute points in a Barrage build? My build is nothing but attacks and buffs; if I didn't bring the buffs (Splinter, Winds, etc.), I could bring exactly 1 skill (Barrage) and maybe try to play a support role with the other 7 slots. ^_^;; I'd rather be doing as much damage as possible all the time. I also prefer to be as independent as possible, and I don't always play with heroes.

Most people that play barrage like to go /w for SY support and /e for conjures. I myself had to go splinter barrage because my razah was acting strange. Some skills he never casted at all. It took me a long time to realize because even without him working properly I still destroyed everything in HM. He also was not getting his bonus' from weapons. I saw this when I put a +60 hp staff on him and he was not getting the extra hp. Once images started breaking I knew my .dat file was corrupted and after replacing it razah now uses all skills properly and fixed some other problems with certain heroes.

This still wont stop me from using a splinter barrage build in some cases such as a full human group. I had asked rits to bring SW for me and they just utterly failed at using it which in turn made me fail at damage.

In the end its what you find fun. I run a prep shot build because I like being a machine gun ranger. My heroes are powerful enough that I can run an empty bar and still coast through HM so it really doesnt matter.

Wenspire · Dec 29, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

@SplinterBarrage: What is your group setup when you play? If you don't have any melee characters, I think the hero Rit prioritizes Splinter on you (assuming there are no other rangers in party) so it should be cast on you on recharge.

Amy Awien · Dec 29, 2011, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter Barrage

+36 isn't "nothing": the total would then be +286, which > 250.

EBSoH would have added 6x15 = 90 ...
They're not mutually exclusive though, so ...

Quote:

EB costs way more, lasts a fraction of the time, and that damage buff is all it does (whereas Winds does other things too). You could also no longer afford to use vampiric, so discount that bonus. And it doesn't affect casters (it would have to be in melee range to affect anyone besides you). Finally, Winds itself takes 1 slot like any other skill. . . .

Off course you can use vamp strings with EbSoH? Why do you say that?

It affects every damage packet, afaik that inludes spells, FW will only add to arrows, if it would aid bone fiends it would be worthwhile, but right now half a dozen fiends fighting from EBSoH will demolish anything in their range, within seconds, making it worth all the whole 10 energy.

You have a non-elite, 10E per 10 sec energy-gain skill in Beastmastery. There's no better, non-elite energy-gain skill available to a Ranger primary. And you can still bring Barrage, Favorable Winds and Summon Spirits. And you'll have the energy to fuel EBSoH.

Splinter Barrage · Dec 30, 2011, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

What is your group setup when you play? If you don't have any melee characters, I think the hero Rit prioritizes Splinter on you (assuming there are no other rangers in party) so it should be cast on you on recharge.

I'm currently planning to set up something like 7-Hero Player Support from PvX (still need a few skills/new equipment), and since that's all casters you're right I should have less trouble. At the moment though there are indeed melees among my heroes, and as Swing said the Rit doesn't always obey (though I have recently bound her skill to my 9-key as if it were part of my own build, to "encourage" her to use it). I still like having an independent version so I can occasionally play without heroes (and/or with other people instead); but if 7-Hero works well enough for me to end up perma-splintered without bringing it myself, this could indeed change my general needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Off course you can use vamp strings with EbSoH? Why do you say that?

If I spam Barrage with a zealous bow, my energy will always be near 100%; unless I'm only hitting single targets, when it becomes necessary to swap to vamp so I get another pip of regen (otherwise, zealous actually hurts my energy). I would like to be able to use vamp all the time, since it does more damage (however slightly) and doesn't mess with regen; however, if I use vamp while spamming Barrage, in anything other than a brief skirmish I'll lose all my energy (and casting a 10e spell, e.g. EBSoH, repeatedly would only speed this loss). So, what I'm looking for is a means of regaining energy a little at a time, enough to offset what zealous accomplishes. In all my playing with it thus far, using Siphon every several seconds has proved sufficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It affects every damage packet, afaik that inludes spells[.]

It affects physical damage, so that excludes things like SW. In the context of a splinter-based (as opposed to, say, Ignite-based) build, the only thing getting buffed either way is the arrows, so arguably it's not really worthwile to bring EB; but I'm only saying you can't maintain it with a vamp bow and a Barrage build. (Extra damage is always nice, but only really useful if you can keep it up.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You have a non-elite, 10E per 10 sec energy-gain skill in Beastmastery. There's no better, non-elite energy-gain skill available to a Ranger primary. And you can still bring Barrage, Favorable Winds and Summon Spirits. And you'll have the energy to fuel EBSoH.

It's true that if I brought CA+NRA instead of DS+LR as my IAS, I could then use Scavenger Strike; however, (1) I would need several points in Beast Mastery to make it effective, and (2) my pet would have to be attacking, at that moment, a target with a condition on it. I will play around with S.S. next time I'm running a pet and get back to you as to whether it can be made to work as effectively with otherwise the same build. I'm sure it's possible to make a decent "w/ pet" version; moreover, if I can rid myself of melee heroes as Wenspire suggests, I may find myself with a lot of free attribute points after all, at which point the investment in Beast would be no problem.

Perhaps Poison Tip Signet could even replace Splinter on the bar, or else I could bind another hero skill which causes a condition. (Just want the energy gain to be dependable.)

Amy Awien · Dec 30, 2011, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter Barrage

... however, if I use vamp while spamming Barrage, in anything other than a brief skirmish I'll lose all my energy (and casting a 10e spell, e.g. EBSoH, repeatedly would only speed this loss).

I don't recall energy problems in the days of Judges Barrage, but then, most PvE consists - or consisted - of short fights. If you are casting SW on yourself, then that combined with EBSoH could pose some energy problems.

Quote:

It affects physical damage, so that excludes things like SW.

It affects nearly all damage, it affects the AoE packets from Ignite Arrows, it doesn't affect SW, I think that is a deliberate exception, one of the few.

You have a team, even when, with splinter barrage, only your arrows get buffed, their damage gets boosted too, even just with a couple of fiends standing in it, it becomes a very effective skill.

Depending on your team, conditions can be an easy precondition to meet for Scavenger's Strike, but I guess I wouldn't try to run it together with SW. Another option for energy gain could be Body Shot, if you have a source of cracked armor in your team. There aren't many options open for us.

Wenspire · Dec 30, 2011, 08:30 PM // 20:30

It affects all damage as long as it is not armor ignoring; doesn't matter what type it is.

**Marty Silverblade** · Dec 30, 2011, 08:46 PM // 20:46

For the record, SW is both physical AND armor ignoring. Armor-effectedness is not an inherent property of damage types. You can see this by testing whether it triggers Mark of Pain, which it does. EBSoH evidently then just increases armor affected damage (which is not the same thing as saying all physical and elemental damage).

EDIT: You can also see this with Ancestor's Rage. It's both lightning damage and armor ignoring. I haven't tested this to check the damage type though.

Splinter Barrage · Dec 30, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44

You are absolutely right: I didn't mean to exclude elemental dmg, etc. Somehow armor-ignoring got thought of as "non-physical"

, but the former is what I meant to say.

As to the energy expenditure, it could be because I'm spamming both Barrage and Volley with a 33% IAS. ^_^ (And with 13 Exp, DS+LR ends up costing 10e, too.) Maybe I'm doing the whole thing wrong; it's probably too ambitious a build, and I should just get better heroes and throw some more support on the bar, or else really invest in the pet and use half pet skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Depending on your team, conditions can be an easy precondition to meet for Scavenger's Strike[.]

It occurs to me that the pet itself could inflict one--i.e. use Poisonous Bite right before Scavenger--but again, with my heroes in order, I probably wouldn't need to devote slots to such things.

Amy Awien · Jan 01, 2012, 11:16 AM // 11:16

I found that usually things don't last long enough to make chains of pet attacks work very well, trying poisonous and then later scavenger would frequently 'miss' the scavenger because whatever got poisoned was already killed. For chains you have to lock your pet and then run them 'blind', while you and your heroes focus on others. Alternatively, just use scavengers when you target something with enough health and a condition indicator.

Kunder · Jan 02, 2012, 01:05 AM // 01:05

If all you want is damage per arrow, R/E Conjure + EBSoH + GoLE will give you ~+30 damage per shot (+15 damage per hit for the rest of the team) and costs a grand total of 5e. I don't see how Favourable Winds + Summon Spirits + Spirit Siphon is even up for consideration against that, even given that you can't use Vamp weapons with Conjure.

Really, Scavenger's Strike just stinks. If Strike as One was a non-elite or some other method was available to make pet's pathing and AI suck less then it would be usable, but as it is SS is 100x more painful to use than any other class's energy management. Its a testament to how poorly rangers have it that some actually end up using it.