Curse

Spura · Aug 30, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I really doubt paragon will be able to work without it's weapon and weapon attribute, much like assassin. Supposedly paragon has plenty of support, but I really don't see it as a no damage support character.

Command, for instance, is a crazy attribute, much like deadly arts. It goes in all directions, pretty much guaranteeing that no matter what team you pair it with, you won't be able to utilize more than 2 skills out of it, which in turn makes it a secondary paragon attribute. For instance we have skills that boost mobility and we have skills that give armor when standing still. Obviously you won't use both, you will use one of them depending on the style of your team build. Also bunch of unique ones like boosting the rez.
Also we have skills that activate on attack skills and skills that activate on spells or even rarer skills like shouts and chants.

Leadership continues this in pretty much the same fashion. The trigger conditions on chants penalize balanced teams and give rise to gimmick teams. To get the most out of most chants you need either a caster heavy team(like caster spike) or attacker heavy teams(like ranger spike or iway). I don't know if this was the intention. Anyway result is that leadership and command combined IMO don't form enough support to make a 0 DPS character out of it, you'd need at least some spear damage to go with it.

Motivation is a whole attribute of energy and heals and is the strongest of the 3 support attributes. For instance Anthem of Flame does 42 damage per attacker maxed and Aria of restoration heals around 100 HP maxed, which clearly puts Paragon as better defensive support than offensive support.
It is basically a hybrid between healing ritualist and heal party spamming E/Mo(except that heal party covers 9 times larger area at least).

Add to these things, that the best elite is in spear mastery(stunning strike). Cautery signet is nerfed martyr(cast times, recharge times), "it;s just a flesh wound" is a nerfed Restore Conditions or elited Draw Conditions, "Incoming" which is nice but most spikes have shorter recharge, Angelic bond, which is like nerfed Life Barrier(Life Barrier makes half of damage disappear, with angelic bond the damage is still the same teamwise and with 10 energy a pop, I see this as something used on class with 4 regen not 2 regen).
Additionally the energy engine of class, Leadership attribute, doesn't work with skills that are echos or just skill. Also many shouts are single target netting you 1 energy back. This makes it a necessity to use adrenaline skills, most of which are, surprise surprise, spear skills.

A lot of people have seen the overpoweredness of paragon in preview and most of it came from spears having too fast attack rate and rangers abusing the short recharge on spear of lightning combined with expertise and 1 extra energy pip. Which once again proves that spear mastery is where the power is not other attributes.

What I'd hate to see is Paragon turning out like another Ritualist or Assassin where, in GvG builds, 5 or 6 skills are always the same and attributes are always communing/spawning power and daggers 14/criticals 13/shadow arts 9. I know I am late, release looming close, but I wanted to voice my concerns and see what's other people's take on this matter. Do you think Paragon is doomed to be spear chunker with some tertiary healing?

Knightsaber Sith · Aug 30, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Just from reading your first paragraph about Paragons not being able to function without their spear/spear mastery attribute I'll point out that spear mastery is not the paragons primary attribute so secondary Paragons can use spears too. Or maybe that doesn't matter, I think I'm missing the point you're getting at....

Edit* had to read back through that hefty post a few times. I would say the Paragon will primarily focus on dmg and a tiny bit of support on the side. But frankly that's what I thought they would be from the beginning, is that really so bad?

Big_Iron · Aug 30, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Spear or no spear. My initial impression is, much like the Mesmer in Prophecies and the Assassin in Factions, the Paragon will be the "red headed stepchild" of Nightfall. I played both new professions during the sneak preview and the Dervish was MUCH more fun to play. But it's really too early to make such a call. We'll know more after the next sneak preview.

lyra_song · Aug 30, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Like the other two non-core proffessions, the Assassin and the Ritualist, the new professions will be "specialists" as Anet calls them.

Unlike the core 6, who have more varied uses.

Ellipson · Aug 30, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Song of Concentration will, in itself, force a change in standard character builds in halls. (Assuming it works on Capture Resource: am I right?)

EDIT: I originally said "Metagame Shift," which implies that 1, HA has a metagame, and 2, entire builds would change, which wouldn't happen. Really meant to say that good teams won't leave home without it.

Mordakai · Aug 30, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

Edit* had to read back through that hefty post a few times. I would say the Paragon will primarily focus on dmg and a tiny bit of support on the side. But frankly that's what I thought they would be from the beginning, is that really so bad?

I agree. Much like the warrior, you won't see many builds without Weapon being the "primary" attribute (not literally, but practically).

The interesting question about the Paragon is how useful the primary will be, if it actually gives enough energy that secondaries could be more varied than Warriors... ie, Paragon/Eles that actually use offensive spells, although that would stretch the attributes.

The other possibility (depending on Energy return), is "melee" spellcasters picking Paragon because of the armor. This is the first non-core Prof with 80 armor, correct? I'm sure people will make use of that fact.

EDIT: where can I find a list of the Paragon / Dervish skills we know of so far?

fallot · Aug 30, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodyDotNet

Spear or no spear. My initial impression is, much like the Mesmer in Prophecies and the Assassin in Factions, the Paragon will be the "red headed stepchild" of Nightfall.

More like the ranger perhaps, where people are not quite sure of their role. You can't go very wrong with a 96 armor ranged character though (while pugging that is).

Knightsaber Sith · Aug 30, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

EDIT: where can I find a list of the Paragon / Dervish skills we know of so far?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Paragon...uick_reference
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Dervish...uick_reference

Guardian of the Light · Aug 30, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

I'm thinking myself of a paragon build that could replace an RC monk.

Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines.

Big_Iron · Aug 30, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

More like the ranger perhaps, where people are not quite sure of their role. You can't go very wrong with a 96 armor ranged character though (while pugging that is).

Good point.

Mordakai · Aug 30, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

I'm thinking myself of a paragon build that could replace an RC monk.

Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines.

Unless your playing a Warrior build with a lot of energy attacks, I don't see why you would do this.

The max you'd have in your weapon would be 12.

However, I can see P/W with Frenzy, or P/R with Tiger's Fury, to speed up that spear attack.

LifeInfusion · Aug 30, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

OP, a paragon can exist without a spear. Only spear mastery requires a spear.

Another thing is the paragon fills the holes of the ritualist and monk (more offensiv ein nature but it is still support). There are many support skills that buff the party or prevent things like interrupt/blocking/evasion.

Mordakai, I wouldn't recommend using Paragon with a secondary that is energy intensive as it only has 2 pips of energy like warriors, even with the primary attribute giving you energy.

Spura · Aug 30, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

Edit* had to read back through that hefty post a few times. I would say the Paragon will primarily focus on dmg and a tiny bit of support on the side. But frankly that's what I thought they would be from the beginning, is that really so bad?

Well I wanted to play a support character and with 3 attributes devoted to support, one would think this was intended. Especially because they lack real ability to improve their spear throwing. Missing IAS, no evade stances, no preparetions with extra damage or poison each hit etc. They don't really strike me as a class big on damage dealing with tiny support, but because of design that's exactly what they are gonna be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

I'm thinking myself of a paragon build that could replace an RC monk.

Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines.

Why would they do that, as you can probably be better with 16 spear that 12 axe or whatever. Also RC does a hefty heal when it removes conditions and "It's just a flesh wound" just removes them while also having longer recharge and can't target self. A lot of support skills are target other so you need that same functionality duplicated somewhere on the team. I can't see paragon doing better than RC monk. Which is exactly what I'm arguing. That support capabilities of paragon are either all over the place and in favor of builds with lots of same type of characters or in case of motivation, outshined by monk and elementalist capabilities, making no sense for such a character to be on the team. Except if it delivers good DPS too, that is. And that is why I say spear will obviously be a must.

Point in Case:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Unless your playing a Warrior build with a lot of energy attacks, I don't see why you would do this.

The max you'd have in your weapon would be 12.

However, I can see P/W with Frenzy, or P/R with Tiger's Fury, to speed up that spear attack.

As you can see, this is exactly what I've been saying. People think "how can we boost that delicious spear attacks" and go into secondary to do it. Which proves my point, that other attributes don't offer enough to really make this class a support one, like tainted flesh necro. Even ranger class non-bow variants: trapper or pet.

This is what I am getting at. For a "Battle Commander" character, paragon does too little commanding and too much battling. At least effective commanding that is. Plenty of skills there to do commanding but they really are not up to snuff when put side by side with spear.

unholy guardian · Aug 30, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I personally plan to not really use a spear unless it's requested, or if im helping a buddy who is still really low level and monsters drop in 3 hits.

Mordakai · Aug 30, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Another thing is the paragon fills the holes of the ritualist and monk (more offensiv ein nature but it is still support). There are many support skills that buff the party or prevent things like interrupt/blocking/evasion.

But, I think the OPs point is, are their enough skills to justify making a Paragon primary for support? Or will effective Paragon's be the ones with Spear of 16, and then a few support skills?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Mordakai, I wouldn't recommend using Paragon with a secondary that is energy intensive as it only has 2 pips of energy like warriors, even with the primary attribute giving you energy.

That's what I was afraid of. I was hoping for a more versatile profession.

Doikor · Aug 30, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

A lot of paragon skills need adrenaline. So you need a ranged weapon so why not go with spear? (its faster then bow and you can take a off-hand item...)

Clawdius_Talonious · Aug 30, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Anyone who honestly believes that any class in this game cannot have effective builds utilizing only one attribute from it's primary class is an idiot. You will see many W/P and P/W, and after awhile some really nice builds will be used for them.

The beauty of this game is the strategy that goes into builds. You say Assassin has to use Dagger to be effective? You're truely a fool if you believe that, an Assassin primary can use other weapons and still be quite effective. Of course, you can't use dagger skills without daggers but I mean seriously...

This to me, is like saying "Warrior is useless without Sword" or "Ranger sucks without a bow" they're generalizations that not only make little sense, but also show that you just haven't put enough thought into the skill combos in this game.

Mordakai · Aug 30, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

You're truely a fool if you believe that, an Assassin primary can use other weapons and still be quite effective. Of course, you can't use dagger skills without daggers but I mean seriously...

Sure, you can make an Assassin with a bow, but why? Why not just make a Ranger? I'm sorry, but the cap of 12 to non-primary Professions makes it really hard to make a good build not utilizing your primary profession's abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

This to me, is like saying "Warrior is useless without Sword" or "Ranger sucks without a bow" they're generalizations that not only make little sense, but also show that you just haven't put enough thought into the skill combos in this game.

A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.

Rangers are an exception because Expertise. R/A and R/P will be useful, as discussed above.

But again, that just reinforces the point of the OP: The Primary use for Paragons appears to be using the Spear first, and commands second.

But, I'll take a wait and see attitude myself.

Silver_Fang · Aug 31, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Sure, you can make an Assassin with a bow, but why? Why not just make a Ranger? I'm sorry, but the cap of 12 to non-primary Professions makes it really hard to make a good build not utilizing your primary profession's abilities.

A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.

Rangers are an exception because Expertise. R/A and R/P will be useful, as discussed above.

But again, that just reinforces the point of the OP: The Primary use for Paragons appears to be using the Spear first, and commands second.

But, I'll take a wait and see attitude myself.

Several Warsassin build are on GuildWiki, you just need to change the mentality of tanking when using the Warsassin.

Also, There are quite a few of Assasin build that dont use dagger nor bow.

And BTW, i planning to use a Dervish that dont use a Scythe (Not D/Mo) and a Paragon that not using the command attribute.

draxynnic · Aug 31, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Sure, you can make an Assassin with a bow, but why? Why not just make a Ranger? I'm sorry, but the cap of 12 to non-primary Professions makes it really hard to make a good build not utilizing your primary profession's abilities.

For a similar reason to why you make a Ranger primary for many builds using primarily non-Ranger skills - for the Assassin primary skill. I'm told the Critical Strikes attribute and skills go quite well with Barrage.

Quote:

A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.

Personally, I consider wands almost required for warriors who fulfill the requirements - gives you the option to attack at range when needed. Sometimes it is better for a warrior not to be adjacent to the enemy.