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Duo Paragons: Ultimate Protection

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Sep 04, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52	#21
Mr. G Desert Nomad Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: S. Wales Profession: Mo/Me	^ But this is all gunna change, Am I the only one to predict more Burning focused spells and abillities (for other classes) in NF? It seems to be the condition of the chapter like dis and posion were for factions

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Sep 04, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

#22

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

If the rumored skill balance is true, Extinguish will be nerfed into oblivion.

In PvE, the entire team should be inside Shout Radius anyways. (especially if ArenaNet buffs earshot range back to Aggro circle)

Matinance of non-renewable echos only requires a skilled player. It can't be stripped, so the Paragon just need to have some skill.

And what will you do when enemies split? Cos good teams do that you know. And to count that players will stay in agro circle is sometimes too much. Even in arenas which are quite small I had trouble keeping mending refrain on those 3 allies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

The first build has 8 Leadership, which, I agree, is low. However, "Watch Yourself" will generate a free 4 Energy. The second build has 16 Leadership. When you use Anthem of Flame, a 5E spell, and if it hits atleast 8 targets (as said, that's very likely in PvE), you get 8 Energy, which is 3 free Energy, meaning that neither build should have energy problems.

Hm last time I looked, leadership was 1 energy per 3 ranks. Wiki says different I checked now. Guess we will wait and see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Ritualists have 60 AL and Spirits can die in 3 hits of any Warrior (Ritual Lords especially are at the mercy of interrupts). Paragons have 80 AL (96 AL with Shield) and Shouts/Chants/Echos can't be stripped. (Unless ArenaNet is cruel and gives Mesmers a skill to do so) Which is more durable?

If we are talking PvE then ritualist can easily put spirits far away enough from monsters also monsters will prefer to attack players over spirits. With spirits range they can really be out of monsters reach.

In pvp split will defeat you. Or just pulling your warriors forward and pressing into your backlines will easily put half the team out of your shout range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Cynn Evennia was being facetious. However, Spear Damage, even with a few Spear Mastery skills, is comparable to Ranger bow damage, since Spear Mastery skills tend to have more bonus armor-ignoring damage. Include a few adrenal-based shouts and you become a fiend.

I've never tried to claim spear is not powerful, but to claim it is a fiendish attacker that is prot monk at the same time is crazy. Spears are completely comparable with warrior weaponry, however packing a lot of spear skills prevents you from running many secondary skills and support shouts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Angelic Protection and Angelic Bond aren't strippable or even interruptable.
I assure you that the first build, with Angelic Bond as the Elite instead of "Incoming!", will be near invincible in RA/TA.

How so? Angelic Bond does not reduce the damage taken by the team as a whole unlike Life Barrier. Half the damage stays on ally and half goes on paragon. That means you spent your elite and you still have to heal the same amount of damage, except it is more focused on the paragon. Most of your heals are made for partywide healing(mending refrain, ballad of restoration), packing Angelic bond would make you more likely to die on RA than playing without it. Also 10 en cost makes it a poor skill for a primary paragon with his 2 regen.

Angelic protection suffers from poor 33% coverage. 10 sec duration 30 sec recharge. Spirit bond or Protective spirit have several times longer duration than recharge. Angelic protection is also target other so that means if they focus you, you better have someone else on the team with strong protection capabilities. Same goes for "Brace Yourself". That is why angelic protection is weak. They just have to switch target until it goes off and you have large downtime. Unlike protection capabilities of a prot monk, which are usually on demand and they can be kept up 100% of the time, energy permitting it.

In the end, I'd rather have removable skill with duration 5 times its recharge like prot spirit than to have non-removable with duration 33% of its recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I'd say the 53% party-wide damage reduction from ToF is better than Prot Spirit any-day.

The point I was making with prot spirit, is that paragon is nowhere near the power of prot monk because prot monk has lots of skills with such versatility. Let's look at how good prot spirit it: if there are high damage attackers like in UW, glint or things like that, there is no skill better than prot spirit. If target is DPed, prot spirit's effect is even magnified. Against those hard hitting bosses in Factions there is no better skill than prot spirit. The amount of damage reduced by prot spirit in one cast which lasts 20+ sec is very high.

A single skill that does so much. Paragon's prot abilities can just hide. And that is just fine, as we can't have paragon be a better protector than monk who was designed for it. But people still like to sell them like they have good protection powers.

If we look at ToF. Yes it does reduce damage 53%, CONDITIONALLY and AGGRO range, not party range. And the condition of having enemy on fire is hard to keep up. Burning refrain is less effective than it looks. Nobody will attack your warriors in pvp so they will be at full HP. A few hits from your warriors on their casters and burning refrain stops working there. Casters kite a lot so I doubt you will be able to keep their casters burning more than 30% of the time. Casters also are not the ones to do pressure through damage, but rather through burning energy, degen and keeping hexes and conditions off warrior(n/mo with draw conditions). I also think you'll keep burning on their warriors 75% of the time without even taking removal into picture. With removal it becomes even less. Burning lasts 3 sec and your burning abilities will probably overlap a lot and have gaps at other times.
And you can't put blazing finale on all 8 members.

I think paragons will have their place, but they will be far from the power some people think. Sometimes you look at stuff and are amazed, like 50% damage reduction to all in shout range if burning and echo that heals 90 each time shout ends. Then on the field you find out the hard way that burning is hard to keep on people and that healing echo has a recharge that prevents you from having it on more than 3 people at once.

I bet you 30 plat no top 20 guild will be able to win with ToK more than 50% of the time against other top 20 guilds.

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Sep 04, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

#23

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

Profession: N/Me

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

So you don't expect the "There on Fire" Paragon to wield a shield? Did you forget about the Motivation Attribute? ALSO the ToF term use has been used before just not with your build. Because of the valid Paragon abilities to grant protection I intend to use two Paragons in addition to my own for PvE and PvP teams. Commander Leader and Motovator.

I'll fix it, gimme a bit, busy ATM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

And why should he? Just because it's used effectively does not mean it should be nerfed to fit your concept of the game. Ever see an Attuned was Songkai Ritualist? I've seen and used some Attuned builds that far exceeded their real in game counterparts. This does not mean the Elite skill is broken, just used well. Plus since Ritual Lord is a Ritualist template most people will use it for PvP not knowing there are better options out there for a Ritualist build such as Attuned was Songkai. (BUT I DIGRESS)

Ritual Lords are overly powerful with NPC support (i.e. GvG, Fort Aspenwood).

I have run AwS builds. They are NOT more effective at protection than Ritual Lords.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Very True! In the field, Burning does not last very long and there are usually more pressing matters at hand. Within the 3 second burning does happens a monk will usually spam a Heal spell such as Word of Healing or Heal party instead of Extinguish. I have found that unless a monk sees bleeding or poison on a health bar they usually don't spam condition removals.

The burning isn't made to be primarily offense, it's primarily to trigger ToF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. G

^ But this is all gunna change, Am I the only one to predict more Burning focused spells and abillities (for other classes) in NF? It seems to be the condition of the chapter like dis and posion were for factions

If my list of the rumored skill balance is true (my list doesn't have Heal Party on it), then Mind Burn and Mark of Rodgort will receive some nice burn-friendly changes.

Also, Paragons are still missing 10 Elites. We'll probably get a more effective Motivation Shout and more ways to burn.

Last edited by Zinger314; Sep 04, 2006 at 06:18 PM // 18:18..

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Sep 04, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

#24

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Yes I've heard the same. My source also noted heal party getting nerfed.

Pressure builds are going to be the new metagame. Caultry sig would be pretty worthless if extingush is around.

I still like "its just a flesh wound" more than the sig. Only because I can use fevered dreams and DW an entire area every 4 seconds. Its also a shout so it cannot be interrupted like sig. DW is just simply better than on fire. I would prefer the condition degen to come from another source. The normal taint crip shot combo works fine for massive pressure.

I think the dmg reduction from targets on fire is too situational. The only targets that will be on fire for a long time is from sending after caultry. That would be 1-3 targets in most normal battle ground situations.

Ok I don't quite get what the good stuff on "It's just a flesh wound" is.

Restore conditions.

5 en 0.75 cast 2 recharge

Remove all Conditions from target other ally. For each condition removed, that ally is healed for 10...58..74 Health.

"It is just a flesh wound"

5 en 0 cast 4 recharge

You suffer from a Deep Wound for 10 seconds, and target other ally loses all Conditions.

So you prefer 0 cast to 0.75 cast so much, that you'd be prepared to throw away shorter recharge and a massive heal per each condition??

And I'd rather get 10 sec bleeding to DW, DW reduces healing and also makes next damage you take a 100 HP spike. If you intend to use it with Fevered dreams I'd rather use an assassin or warrior to inflict deep wound on hexed target than use "It's just a flesh wound" and plague touch.

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Sep 04, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08	#25
twicky_kid Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: Quite Vulgar [FUN]	RC is not used in GvG. If extingush suvives the nerf then you wouldn't need a mass condition removal. 4 second recharge allows you to use it 3 times before sig would recharge. DW is much scarier than burning. Last edited by twicky_kid; Sep 04, 2006 at 07:22 PM // 19:22..

Sep 04, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10	#26
Nevin Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jul 2005	Tof seems to be a very interesting build

Old

Sep 04, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

#27

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Guild: Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

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Quote:

posted by Zinger314
I have run AwS builds. They are NOT more effective at protection than Ritual Lords.

Yes you are absolutely correct. I was speaking in terms of Channeling, Restoration, and cross class builds such as Attuned Illusionist builds not communing builds.

Communing spirits are powerful indeed and is the streignth of the Ritualist class. However I don't believe the Ritualist is overpowered because of the Ritual Lord Elite. Plus if you were to NERF Ritual Lord you don't have to touch the skill at all just NERF Boon of Creation. (BUT THIS IS NOT A THREAD ON NERFING RITUAL LORD)

It will be interesting to see how the Pragon Echo's will stack with the Ritualist communing spirits however.

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Sep 04, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46	#28
Spura Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Feb 2005	And since we are discussing nerfs. I think the first skill to be nerfed out of currently known ones is gonna be Aria of Swiftness. Easily the most powerful non-elite around. Paragon skills are either weaker than what other classes have but more aoeish or they are very strong but have conditions. Some have hard conditions like ToF and some have easy ones like Aria of Swiftness. 33% speed boost exceeds most warrior and ranger speed boosts and also equals all boosts but dash and burning speed. Enchanted condition is easy. Use aegis, dark fury, orders or each member uses single target enchants/has such enchants used on them. Eles use prodigy, monk boon, warriors have smiters place enchants on them. Or a bonder. 33% speed boost with 100% uptime will make casters kite like crazy and enable warriors to frenzy while on speed boost. Also whole team moves much faster around the map and responds to enemy. Compare it to charge which is elite, has only 50% uptime and only 25% boost. This makes Aria of Swiftness easily the one of the most powerful non-elites in the game and it is gonna eat the nerf bat at release or after it.

Sep 05, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45	#29
AlienFromBeyond Jungle Guide Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: Heros of Titans Realm [HotR] Profession: W/	Paragons can be more than just defensive supporters though. Consider some of the following ability combos: "Brace Yourself!" + Desperation/Drunken Blow = a random condition + 100 or so armor ignoring damage, and you're still not knocked down. Energizing Chorus will turn Adrenaline into Energy, from not only it's ability but from your Leadership ability as well. A Leadership of 10 would let you get 5 Energy if there are 5 allies near you, and your next Shout/Chant will be 5 less Energy. Combine this with Anthem of Fury (which is now free, but still gets you Leadership Energy), and you have a nice Energy AND Adrenaline engine going. Hell, Energizing Chorus by itself will be the definitive Energy Management for Paragons. No recharge time, Adrenaline cost, gets you Leadership Energy, AND reduces your next Shout/Chant as well? Other way you could do Energy Management would be Lyric of Zeal with Glowing Signet and some way to have an enemy burning (not hard). Mighty Throw is the ideal charge up skill with Anthem of Fury due to its low cost. Stunning Strike + Blazing Spear is a simple, yet effective skill combination. Also, remember that while Spears do 1 less minimum and maximum damage than Bows, they attack half a second faster than the fastest bows, and at the same range.

Sep 05, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29	#30
My Sweet Revenga Krytan Explorer Join Date: Nov 2005 Profession: R/	On the defensive side this looks pretty solid. What about offensive capabilities though? Without solid damage dealing wouldn't this just result in one big long stalemate? The only exception I can think of off hand (I'm sure there are other combos) would be this 2 paragon build with a bunch of assassins. I saw a team consisting of 3 assasins, 2 monks, and something else I can't remember, but they were probably using vent or ts to communicate, and they just death charged 1 player at a time systematically wiping out the opposing team with huge spike combo damage. I can just imagine what will happen if you throw 2 hootin paragons in the mix...... Last edited by My Sweet Revenga; Sep 05, 2006 at 06:31 PM // 18:31..

Sep 05, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13	#31
BahamutKaiser Desert Nomad Join Date: May 2005 Location: Heightened state of mind. Profession: P/W	If this duo were accompanied by a Burning elementist than they may be able to keep burning on the enemy long enough to keep the enemies damage reduced. With MoR and Rod Invocation you can put significant burning down, but unless your fighting PvE, the enemy is probably going to pick up on your tactic and avoid the burning techniques or refrian their attack momentarily to use between burning. I think this is a good damage and protective build, but it will still need dedicated healers. If it is good enough Paragon could very well replace the second monk in a party, with one paragon, one monk and one rit, there may be a balance of low, medium and high end support skills in a party, that would be a great improvement IMO. I am also interested in seeing how well Paragon secondaries will work with Assassin, Warrior and Ranger.

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Sep 05, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

#32

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond

Paragons can be more than just defensive supporters though. Consider some of the following ability combos:

"Brace Yourself!" + Desperation/Drunken Blow = a random condition + 100 or so armor ignoring damage, and you're still not knocked down.

Energizing Chorus will turn Adrenaline into Energy, from not only it's ability but from your Leadership ability as well. A Leadership of 10 would let you get 5 Energy if there are 5 allies near you, and your next Shout/Chant will be 5 less Energy.

First combo: It is target other ally skill. Sucks, I know. Means that paragon has to bring balanced stance because he can't protect himself from knockdown.

Second skill: I don;t like energizing chorus. I tried it and I didn't quite like it. I would rather take another adrenaline chant and reap leadership energy off it.

Combos I used in preview was critical defenses + "Go for the eyes". Since I already had high command I also took "Never surrender". Shouts are nice for assassin cos you don't stop attacking to cast them.

As for ToF: Best way to inflict constant burning on massive scale is to use burning speed. When it ends it does up to 9 sec of adjacent burning. So stick it on a dervish. Then cast burning speed then signet of piety. It removes the enchantment giving you back 8 energy, so you only spent 2. It also heals (mysticism + signet of piety). And it inflicts aoe burning for 6 sec or so. And burning speed and signet have no recharge. 2 skills make an aoe burner with healing and energy engine rolled into one.

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Sep 06, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02	#33
lord catos Academy Page Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: netherlands Guild: guild leader off skull warriors of chaos [SW] Profession: W/E	Paragon are very good, and have a good build. Only I think not many players no how to use such build. Ore no how to understand to power of the skills.(have see it in faction)

Sep 06, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13	#34
sassoonssamson Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jul 2006	nice work there u got me interested in the paragon now

Sep 06, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59	#35
Mrscoombes Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Aug 2006 Guild: Crimson Skullfuks Profession: A/R	Extinguish ftw.

Sep 06, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21	#36
Ole Man Bourbon Jungle Guide Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Atlanta Guild: GONG Profession: W/E	Paragon indeed has a ton of potential. Looks like a super strong class.

Sep 06, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38	#37
Zinger314 Debbie Downer Join Date: May 2006 Profession: N/Me	Forgot to mention: +5e Spears are the best, since direct spear damage isn't the focus of these builds. Fortunally, the pre-order spear is +5e.

Sep 06, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54	#38
unholy guardian Jungle Guide Join Date: Mar 2006 Guild: Lost Haven Profession: A/Mo	[QUOTE=Spura]First combo: It is target other ally skill. Sucks, I know. Means that paragon has to bring balanced stance because he can't protect himself from knockdown. Second skill: I don;t like energizing chorus. I tried it and I didn't quite like it. I would rather take another adrenaline chant and reap leadership energy off it. /QUOTE] you don;t get the concept of brace yourself why not just include this? It IS awesome energy managment. Not only DO you reap benefits from leadership from a skill with 4 adrenlin cost, but the next chant gets deduced by like up to 7 or whatever, that's like 12 total energy to be utilized, although not all raw energy, combine with another skill like defensive anthem and that 15 energy cost goes to like 3. Everyone seems to not relize how exhactly good it is.

Sep 07, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18	#39
Soldat Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: TX Guild: Fashion Police [chic]	eh, for some reason i too appreciated the paragon more than the dervish (maybe it was just the looks, nah) I felt it had a lot of potential during the PvP weekend. Builds here look nice. At 1st i didnt get em cuz its too late, but now i do; I'll hafta try em.

Sep 07, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07	#40
Spura Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Feb 2005	Well you are basically weighing the benefit of 7 energy against benefit of whatever adren shout is replacing it. So 7 energy vs 20 AL(watch yourself) or 60% crit chance on next attack(go for the eyes). Of course 7 energy bonus is likely only good for paragons, while 20 AL and 60% crit can be used by pretty much everyone.

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