Curse

Spura · Dec 04, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I doubt it buys you even that much time. 2 of those touch necros will punch through this shout in less than 2 seconds. And it works only on you.
Completely utterly useless!

Should have been: For 20 sec, the next 1..8 touch skills targeting target ally, cast 150% longer. It would be way way way better than current skill. Advantages:
- It would nerf touch skill spam harder, touchers just can't punch through in a second with plague touch.
- It would nerf shock less, currently exhaustion is too much to get through current version of this shout with shock.

Valium · Dec 04, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Geez people, learn to deal and be creative.

Some of you throw worse temper tantrums then my 1 year old. lol

Karmaniac · Dec 04, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Since we are discussing about useless skills I'm amazed no one has mentioned signed of aggression before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signet of Aggression

If you are under the effects of a Shout or Chant, you gain 1 strike of adrenaline.

1s cast and 10s recast: so basically you gain the same amount of adrenaline as when you throw a spear but no damage. Every 10 seconds. Hey Anet plz gimp this skill before people will find out the awesome power SoA spamming.

random.name · Dec 04, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

After the skill changes I made one post, and told myself to wait for a few days and calm down. Since then I have exclusively played my Paragon to get a feel on the changes.

I have now finally decided to stop playing it. I regret spending all that time getting survivor, sunspear castellan, rank 6 LB, cartographer and elonian defender. Sure, any class can be played, but why should I continue to play a class that wont ever be as goon as a core class? I for one feel that Anet should actually stop adding new professions with the next chapters.

I dont know if the original creator of the professions moved on to another game company or what, but the 4 additional classes has been major failures.

I will just stick to my trusty warrior, monk and ranger for PvE.

Riotgear · Dec 04, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Warriors: They have entirely different trees which are mutually exclusive, so there's no one "needed skill"

I'd be insane to run an offensive build without flail. I'd be insane to run a tank build without dolyak sig.

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Rangers: Although they have a fixed skill "arrangement", ie. take one defensive stand, take two or three bow attacks, you have alot of options in terms of which skills will fill those slots. Even then, the variations of builds pretty much nullify the "required skill" idea. Trappers, Touchers, Thumpers, Int-ers.

You don't bring touchers to PvE. Distracting shot goes on any bar I make that has a bow.

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Granted though, a prot monk will always take reversal and guardian.

Practically any good PvE monk build includes ROF. Pure-heal monk builds are not good builds.

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Like warriors, different "trees", so while within those trees there may be must-haves (lightning orb, fireball), the rule doesn't apply to these guys.

Elemental attunement. Or SF.

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But the "must-haves" of paragons are all either in one attribute, or in ANOTHER CLASS. Now that's just fruity, don't you think?

There are only two things that even look like "must-haves": WY and Aggressive Refrain. And WY isn't really even needed because you can just bring GFTE at the same cost. You don't NEED Burning Anthem, because you can bring Blazing Finale.

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the other weakens you for 20 seconds.

Spura · Dec 04, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Basically you have spear skills which are crap, party heals + condition removal which are inferior to heal party+extinguish spammer, bunch of small utility which is too specialised and usually ineffective at what it does("can't touch this, angelic protection etc) and energy skills which is the only thing paragon does better than other classes. Well these were nerfed now. So that is why people don't like this nerf. Energizing finale was overpowered but battery was all paragon was useful for because every other aspect of paragon is inferior to some other profession. And you can't have them all either(don't have the slots or attributes to be medium damage medium healing).

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

"Returning"? You missed the point completely. My point is that EF is not there to be used on yourself to recover energy.

Where did I ever say I was using EF on myself? You think I'm that idiotic not to put enough points in Leadership!? This kind of attitude sums it up about the Paragon fanboys on this forum really. Anyone who is a half decent player knows that the sweet spot for EF was on monks/eles and now it's not even good enough to put on warriors.

It's amazing how people ignore the valid points I've made and concentrate on some tangent which I didn't even imply.

In particular, you haven't addressed the small regen, small energy pool lack of hex removers, and underpowered/monotonuous spear line.

If you take all that into consideration, there's not much left for Paragons - maybe 1 or 2 semi-useful builds and that's it. And that's exactly the situation Rits are in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Actually, a paragon with an IAS and 16 spear mastery can deal a pretty respectible amount of damage. Also, there are a number of +42 damage spear skills. Spear attacks are quite good if you put some thought into how to use them. Sadly most people seem to think they should be a warrior that can attack at range, which is quite stupid imo. And how exactly do you expect a spear, which is a single target projectile, to deal aoe damage?

GFTE is an amazing skill in any build with heavy physical damage. At 16 Command it grants an additional 78% chance to critical. That means that a warrior or dervish with 16 weapon mastery will have about a 90% chance to land a critical hit nearly every three seconds. I’m sorry but you’re crazy if you think that’s “crud.”

If you're gonna put 16 in spear, you're gonna have to cut down seriously on motivation - which makes you a spear chucker. Fine. Compare DPS and tell me they are better than even channeling Rits - they're not. How's does a spear do AoE damage? It doesn't, that's one reason why it sucks. I vote for something like Barrage for spears - at least Rangers have better damage on supposedly 'single target projectile' arrows.

GFTE is very nice to use, although you get shutdown easily with Vocal Minority - with no spammable hex breakers on Paras this is a real downer. Plus, GFTE's real strength is in relying on the rest of the party to do damage - hardly a first class skill on its own. OoP or OoD on necros would be even better than this half-thought out line.

I'm going to repeat that my original points which haven't been addressed. Paragons are begining to look like Rits - supposedly "flexible", not very good in any one area and dropping out of PUGs fast.

I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds - Seriously though how many paragons actually brought this skill with them. I would say a good 75% of PvE paragons go with command over motivation anyways.

So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1. - Again how many paragons actually brought this with them on their regular bar.

You're kidding right? EF was one of the best things for Paras other than being a WY/GFTE spammer. I'm beginning to seriously doubt you've properly played a Para per-nerf before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Incoming: Increased Energy cost to 10 and decreased duration to 1..5 seconds. - It now takes more timing to use, while still being a good skill.

Subjective. Many people would say Incoming is only useful for PvP now (see rest of thread), and I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.

You've basically agreed that most of the useful skills have been nerfed, because the stats speak for themsevles. But you then overlay it with a subjective opinion that says they're still "good". I think you'll find that PUGs will come round to the fact that Paras aren't really good party buffers anymore, and that primary monks/eles/bips will dish out more healing/damage/energy (in that order) more effectively than a second-rate char occupying a precious slot.

ANet, where's the beef? Where's the compelling build to run like MM/SS for Necros, or barrager for rangers, or nukers for Eles?

I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds - Seriously though how many paragons actually brought this skill with them. I would say a good 75% of PvE paragons go with command over motivation anyways.

So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1. - Again how many paragons actually brought this with them on their regular bar.

You're kidding right? EF was one of the best things for Paras other than being a WY/GFTE spammer. I'm beginning to seriously doubt you've properly played a Para per-nerf before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Incoming: Increased Energy cost to 10 and decreased duration to 1..5 seconds. - It now takes more timing to use, while still being a good skill.

Subjective. Many people would say Incoming is only useful for PvP now (see rest of thread), and I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.

You've basically agreed that most of the useful skills have been nerfed, because the stats speak for themsevles. But you then overlay it with a subjective opinion that says they're still "good". I think you'll find that PUGs will come round to the fact that Paras aren't really good party buffers anymore, and that primary monks/eles/bips will dish out more healing/damage/energy (in that order) more effectively than a second-rate char occupying a precious slot.

ANet, where's the beef? Where's the compelling build to run like MM/SS for Necros, or barrager for rangers, or nukers for Eles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Basically you have spear skills which are crap, party heals + condition removal which are inferior to heal party+extinguish spammer, bunch of small utility which is too specialised and usually ineffective at what it does("can't touch this, angelic protection etc) and energy skills which is the only thing paragon does better than other classes. Well these were nerfed now. So that is why people don't like this nerf. Energizing finale was overpowered but battery was all paragon was useful for because every other aspect of paragon is inferior to some other profession. And you can't have them all either(don't have the slots or attributes to be medium damage medium healing).

Agreed. I'd add to that that paragon party-wide heals (*** of Resto) are inferior to E/Mo running as prodigy/HP pumpers. Song of Purification? Pffft - get Extinguish already!

There are only a few things you can buff the party with:

1. Health - inferior in almost every respect, even to Resto Rits running Attuned was Songkai
2. Energy - nerfed. BIPs are still supreme.
3. Armor - nerfed. Only synergistic skill was the lonely WY anyway.
4. Damage - spear line is like poking people with toothpicks. GFTE might still be the best thing going for a Para, but that's neither here nor there when you consider what OoP/OoD can do on necros.

Paragons are not really compelling. None of the builds are must-haves like MMs or nukers or booners. You'll have to agree at some point with the original issue I raised: Paragons are the new Rits (post-nerf).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Practically any good PvE monk build includes ROF. Pure-heal monk builds are not good builds.

Counter example: In the Deep, monks are almost always pure heal WoH/HP pumpers. You won't find bonders or boon prots in that high end PVE mission. RoF? eeesh....

I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds - Seriously though how many paragons actually brought this skill with them. I would say a good 75% of PvE paragons go with command over motivation anyways.

So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1. - Again how many paragons actually brought this with them on their regular bar.

You're kidding right? EF was one of the best things for Paras other than being a WY/GFTE spammer. I'm beginning to seriously doubt you've properly played a Para per-nerf before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Incoming: Increased Energy cost to 10 and decreased duration to 1..5 seconds. - It now takes more timing to use, while still being a good skill.

Subjective. Many people would say Incoming is only useful for PvP now (see rest of thread), and I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.

You've basically agreed that most of the useful skills have been nerfed, because the stats speak for themsevles. But you then overlay it with a subjective opinion that says they're still "good". I think you'll find that PUGs will come round to the fact that Paras aren't really good party buffers anymore, and that primary monks/eles/bips will dish out more healing/damage/energy (in that order) more effectively than a second-rate char occupying a precious slot.

ANet, where's the beef? Where's the compelling build to run like MM/SS for Necros, or barrager for rangers, or nukers for Eles?

I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds - Seriously though how many paragons actually brought this skill with them. I would say a good 75% of PvE paragons go with command over motivation anyways.

So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1. - Again how many paragons actually brought this with them on their regular bar.

You're kidding right? EF was one of the best things for Paras other than being a WY/GFTE spammer. I'm beginning to seriously doubt you've properly played a Para per-nerf before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparhawkJC

Incoming: Increased Energy cost to 10 and decreased duration to 1..5 seconds. - It now takes more timing to use, while still being a good skill.

Subjective. Many people would say Incoming is only useful for PvP now (see rest of thread), and I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.

You've basically agreed that most of the useful skills have been nerfed, because the stats speak for themsevles. But you then overlay it with a subjective opinion that says they're still "good". I think you'll find that PUGs will come round to the fact that Paras aren't really good party buffers anymore, and that primary monks/eles/bips will dish out more healing/damage/energy (in that order) more effectively than a second-rate char occupying a precious slot.

ANet, where's the beef? Where's the compelling build to run like MM/SS for Necros, or barrager for rangers, or nukers for Eles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Basically you have spear skills which are crap, party heals + condition removal which are inferior to heal party+extinguish spammer, bunch of small utility which is too specialised and usually ineffective at what it does("can't touch this, angelic protection etc) and energy skills which is the only thing paragon does better than other classes. Well these were nerfed now. So that is why people don't like this nerf. Energizing finale was overpowered but battery was all paragon was useful for because every other aspect of paragon is inferior to some other profession. And you can't have them all either(don't have the slots or attributes to be medium damage medium healing).

Agreed. I'd add to that that paragon party-wide heals (*** of Resto) are inferior to E/Mo running as prodigy/HP pumpers. Song of Purification? Pffft - get Extinguish already!

There are only a few things you can buff the party with:

1. Health - inferior in almost every respect, even to Resto Rits running Attuned was Songkai
2. Energy - nerfed. BIPs are still supreme.
3. Armor - nerfed. Only synergistic skill was the lonely WY anyway.
4. Damage - spear line is like poking people with toothpicks. GFTE might still be the best thing going for a Para, but that's neither here nor there when you consider what OoP/OoD can do on necros.

Paragons are not really compelling. None of the builds are must-haves like MMs or nukers or booners. You'll have to agree at some point with the original issue I raised: Paragons are the new Rits (post-nerf).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Practically any good PvE monk build includes ROF. Pure-heal monk builds are not good builds.

Counter example: In the Deep, monks are almost always pure heal WoH/HP pumpers. You won't find bonders or boon prots in that high end PVE mission. RoF? eeesh....

falling demon · Dec 04, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Nerf Nerf Nerf.. Buff Buff Buff.. there's no making you guys happy is there? If Anet listened to everybody, there would be no point making a build, because likely one of the skills gets nerfed the next day.

Stop whining, stop crying, get over it, ADAPT.

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by falling demon

Nerf Nerf Nerf.. Buff Buff Buff.. there's no making you guys happy is there? If Anet listened to everybody, there would be no point making a build, because likely one of the skills gets nerfed the next day.

Stop whining, stop crying, get over it, ADAPT.

Adapt? I already said I deleted my Paragon.

Who's whining and crying? I'm merely pointing out why Paragons are now inferior to every other core class and explaining in detail at the skill-level. Unlike your approach to shutting down the issue by flatly telling people to ADAPT like it's some kind of magic pill.

If you don't want to discuss the issues, don't post anything - otherwise you're missing the point about discussion forums like these in the first place. If you don't want OTHER people to discuss the issues, then you've got serious issues about cramping other people's style. Don't be selfish, let other people carry on discussing.

RandomEngy · Dec 04, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

If you think Paragons are now useless, either in PvP or PvE you are insane. Motivation paragons are still great. Mending Refrain is one slot and gets your whole team +4 health regen, with zero extra effort to keep up and almost no chance of being shut down. Finale of restoration is also incredibly efficient healing.

As for command, There's plenty of choice skills: Stand Your Ground, Go For the Eyes, Find their Weakness and Make Haste come to mind. Also you can't really compare OoP/OoV to GftE. First, GftE actually gives you energy rather than taking it away, thus fueling other useful skills. Second, it can't be interrupted. Third, since it's instant cast, you're not making a character spend all of his time just doing it. Fourth, the character using it can also do damage himself and benefit from the buff.

With Leadership you've still got Aggressive Refrain, They're on Fire and Blazing Finale, all 3 amazing skills.

And for spear mastery skills, I agree that for the most part they just aren't very good. I've used one or two as a supplement to command but never really a dedicated damage build.

Someone said that Searing Flames was going to take over HA. But in my 2-paragon 2-henchmen team I routinely beat SF teams with human players.

But really, a couple of broken skills were balanced. This does not mean that paragons are now useless.

B Ephekt · Dec 04, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Really now? Can you name 2 spear attacks which do that kind of damage (without a negative side-effect) which you can have all of on your skillbar at the same time?

And plenty of the lower bonus damage skills are
EDIT: well rather than be an obnoxious jerk, I'll just continue this right in this post: The only skills which do +42 without negative side effects are BOTH elite, ie. the only spear elites.
The remaining two attacks both has hideous negative effects. One has a 3 second activation time, and the other weakens you for 20 seconds.

A 3 second activation time is negligible for a spike. Cruel Spear is like a ranged Eviscerate, so I wouldn't consider its elite status to be a bad thing, especially if you had 16 spear mastery like I stated (and wouldn't likely be using a command or motivation elite). Wearying Strike is easily handled by a monk, but this is admittedly more pvp oriented.

Quote:

Seriously though, I mean attack skills with an activation time of less than 1. :P

Yeah, I was aware of that since you so clearly stated it previously. A paragon with an IAS, and only Spear of Lightening can still do a ton of ranged pressure damage.

Also, Energy Tap is a horrible skill I had to laugh at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.

Giving your monks/casters 8 energy every 20 seconds isn't really bad in a high pressure enviroment. The fact that it allows monks to gain energy without wasting a skill slot on your monks, or a party slot on a blood necro with BiP or Blood Rit, makes it a viable skill for a motivation paragon.

Quote:

Subjective. Many people would say Incoming is only useful for PvP now (see rest of thread), and I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.

Posts like this would cause me to qestion how much experience you have in high level pvp. Incoming is simply amazing at stopping spikes, which is why you see it in almost every GvG match. A well timed Incoming can win a match in tombs, or turn the tide of a fight long enough to make a morale push in GvG. The skill is still very viable.

Quote:

I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely:

So far you've complained that paragons can't deal as much damage as a channeling rit, can't heal better than a monk or ele with heal party, can't remove conditions and hexes better than a monk and can't do aeo like a ranger. It seems that you're the one missing the point of the paragon. You seem to want paragons to be super ranged warriors with aoe attacks, better healing and removal than a monk and better energy buffs than a necro with an elite skill.

Could you stop for once and try to grasp that elusive concept of balance? Paragons are not meant to out perform any of those professions, they're meant to provide a little healing, protection, damage and yes, even some aoe burning.

Compare this to a Resto Rit: they can heal, but not as well as a monk, they can offer some prot, but not as well as a monk. They're good for niche roles, however, like operating under QZ with Attuned - something a monk would crumble under.

Paragons are similar in that regard. The resto skill are meant to be dumb healing; they're not supposed to replace heal party, but rather to provide enough dumb healing to releave pressure and help out your monks.

Incoming isn't meant to be a non-removable Life Barrier; it's meant to stop the amount of damage a spike does, or to give your monks some reprieve from a lot of heavy pressure.

Energizing Finale wasn't meant to outperform a necro with an elite skill, it was meant to add enough energy to be viable, but not so much that it granted unlimited energy to the target. NoO matter how much you whine or rationalize, when a non-elite skill can grant more constant energy gain than an elite, you know it's broken.

Look at the paragon skills, and consider what attribute they're placed under. A command paragon can buff his party's defense, buff their offense, and still run a constant IAS with 9 spear mastery and deal damage. A motivation paragon can give his party some dumb healing, removal, help with energy a bit and still do damage. What other class can do all of that with a simply 3 attribute split (15/9/12)?

The problem isn't that paragons are underpowered, it's that people got used to them being overpowered, or that they want them to be carbon copies of other classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

If you're gonna put 16 in spear, you're gonna have to cut down seriously on motivation - which makes you a spear chucker.

Thanks for stating the obvious, and ignoring my obviously implications of an offensive paragon.

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Compare DPS and tell me they are better than even channeling Rits - they're not.

This is just ignorance. I was running a 4 paragon build in tombs, each had an IAS a condition attack, Spear of Lightening as a spam skill and Cruel and Harrier's as spike skills. These paragons can deal a ridiculous amoung of DPS, can do a pretty nice spike and can buff their party enough to be quite resilient.

Channeling rits suck at DPS because they require attack skills to deal damage, a paragon can auto attack a target and still deal nearly as much DPS as a warrior would auto attacking, while doing so at a distance.

If you're complaining that a paragon can't do as much DPS as a warrior, then you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of balance. In which case I don't know why I'm bothering to reply.

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How's does a spear do AoE damage? It doesn't, that's one reason why it sucks. I vote for something like Barrage for spears - at least Rangers have better damage on supposedly 'single target projectile' arrows.

So you basically just want paragons to become rangers? Good idea. Let's add in Savage and Distracting spear too, that'll be balanced.

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GFTE is very nice to use, although you get shutdown easily with Vocal Minority - with no spammable hex breakers on Paras this is a real downer.

This is why Guild Wars has a class called "monk," Divert Hexes completely negates the threat that Vocal imposes.

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Plus, GFTE's real strength is in relying on the rest of the party to do damage - hardly a first class skill on its own. OoP or OoD on necros would be even better than this half-thought out line.

GFTE requires no effort on the paragon's part, no health sac and fits into an attribute line that actually has other useful skills. Blood necros aren't very useful in pvp.

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

So far you've complained that paragons can't deal as much damage as a channeling rit, can't heal better than a monk or ele with heal party, can't remove conditions and hexes better than a monk and can't do aeo like a ranger. It seems that you're the one missing the point of the paragon. You seem to want paragons to be super ranged warriors with aoe attacks, better healing and removal than a monk and better energy buffs than a necro with an elite skill.

No.

I want the Paragon to be actually good at something (just one will do, like the other classes), instead of <b>meh</b> in everything. I hate poorly conceived classes. I dislike classes that regurgitate existing attributes in supposedly new forms, but the game engine hasn't fundamentally changed. The damage/health/buff attributes of a paragon hinge upon existing categories, it strikes me that ANet was too lazy to implement a new damage type for Rit channeling and used Lightning instead which was already used by Eles. The seams are now showing, and it ain't pretty. Similarly, spear chucking is incredibly lame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Paragons are similar in that regard.

I rest my original case. Paragons are the new Rits. Rather second class at everything, and not likely to be included in PUGs for much longer.

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Incoming isn't meant to be a non-removable Life Barrier; <snip>

Energizing Finale wasn't meant to outperform a necro ... <snip>

Skill X isn't this, skill Y isn't that. You've just highlighted how intrinsically poor the Paragon is. All the skills I can see are half-hearted regurgitations of existing combinations. You can't build a 1st class char like that.

Quote:

Look at the paragon skills, and consider what attribute they're placed under. A command paragon can buff his party's defense, buff their offense, and still run a constant IAS with 9 spear mastery and deal damage.

The ENTIRE point was that the paragon can't do one thing well, and that cripples the entire class - everything from getting included in a PUG to having a sweet spot like the necros/rangers/eles/monks do. The Paragon has nothing to boast about except a finger in every pie, and a very piddly little finger it is too.

Quote:

So you basically just want paragons to become rangers? Good idea. Let's add in Savage and Distracting spear too, that'll be balanced.

I was just pointing out that rangers are better in barrage mode than spear Paras could ever hope to be. They have longer range, hit more targets and do more damage, and dont feel half as sluggish as a Paragon. That is the fatal problem in the spear line, which is symptomatic of all the remaining skills.

Kaane · Dec 04, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Adapt? I already said I deleted my Paragon.

Who's whining and crying? I'm merely pointing out why Paragons are now inferior to every other core class and explaining in detail at the skill-level. Unlike your approach to shutting down the issue by flatly telling people to ADAPT like it's some kind of magic pill.

You poor fool.

I still love my Paragon and don't see her as being nerfed at all. Then again, your loss. Deleting your Paragon because a few skills have been toned down isn't much different that a rage-quit in a PuG... sounds like the sort of thing a rage-quitter would do, actually.

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaane

You poor fool.

I still love my Paragon and don't see her as being nerfed at all. Then again, your loss. Deleting your Paragon because a few skills have been toned down isn't much different that a rage-quit in a PuG... sounds like the sort of thing a rage-quitter would do, actually.

If you can't see Paragons have been nerfed despite the skill stats saying otherwise, you sounds like the kind of dumb ineffective player I can do without in my group actually.

Spura · Dec 04, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

A 3 second activation time is negligible for a spike.

However it sucks for DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Cruel Spear is like a ranged Eviscerate, so I wouldn't consider its elite status to be a bad thing, especially if you had 16 spear mastery like I stated (and wouldn't likely be using a command or motivation elite).

Eviscerate doesn't require target to stand still. At least in pvp people these days are only slowed 66% not actually standing still.

But yes it is an ok elite. But what we would require is just plain vanilla +40 dmg attack like Galrath slash to use it with Focused Anger. Right now all +40 are either elite or have 3 sec cast/weakness.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

A paragon with an IAS, and only Spear of Lightening can still do a ton of ranged pressure damage.

Not nearly as much as dervish/assassin/warrior.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Posts like this would cause me to qestion how much experience you have in high level pvp. Incoming is simply amazing at stopping spikes, which is why you see it in almost every GvG match. A well timed Incoming can win a match in tombs, or turn the tide of a fight long enough to make a morale push in GvG. The skill is still very viable.

Agreed it is, though rising costs work negatively for build diversity, it is hard to run command paragon now(usually has incoming, stand your ground) without some kind of adrenaline shout. Also makes paragon way too hard to run in party of four. The whole cost raise was unneeded.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

So far you've complained that paragons can't deal as much damage as a channeling rit, can't heal better than a monk or ele with heal party, can't remove conditions and hexes better than a monk and can't do aeo like a ranger. It seems that you're the one missing the point of the paragon. You seem to want paragons to be super ranged warriors with aoe attacks, better healing and removal than a monk and better energy buffs than a necro with an elite skill.

You are putting words in our mouth, we never said we wanted paragon to be all of that. We complained it isn't good at anything any more(at least not enough to be taken for that role over some other build). The negation of being good at nothing is being good at something. You implied it was being good at everything. Well we basically need at least one role that can be preferablly pugged in pve where paragon is stronger than other options. It used to be energy battery now it is nothing.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Could you stop for once and try to grasp that elusive concept of balance? Paragons are not meant to out perform any of those professions, they're meant to provide a little healing, protection, damage and yes, even some aoe burning.

But nobody wants characters like that. They will just take specialised character.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Compare this to a Resto Rit: they can heal, but not as well as a monk, they can offer some prot, but not as well as a monk. They're good for niche roles, however, like operating under QZ with Attuned - something a monk would crumble under.

Paragons are similar in that regard. The resto skill are meant to be dumb healing; they're not supposed to replace heal party, but rather to provide enough dumb healing to releave pressure and help out your monks.

Actually I think restoration isn't about party heals, it is about spot heals. They are freaking powerful.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Incoming isn't meant to be a non-removable Life Barrier; it's meant to stop the amount of damage a spike does, or to give your monks some reprieve from a lot of heavy pressure.

Energizing Finale wasn't meant to outperform a necro with an elite skill, it was meant to add enough energy to be viable, but not so much that it granted unlimited energy to the target. NoO matter how much you whine or rationalize, when a non-elite skill can grant more constant energy gain than an elite, you know it's broken.

However at 10 energy they are too expensive for what they do now. Otherwise I don't mind the EF nerf that much.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Look at the paragon skills, and consider what attribute they're placed under. A command paragon can buff his party's defense, buff their offense, and still run a constant IAS with 9 spear mastery and deal damage.

That lame build with 9 spear everyone runs is just pathetic. I do more damage with conjure fire and wand on elementalist.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

A motivation paragon can give his party some dumb healing, removal, help with energy a bit and still do damage. What other class can do all of that with a simply 3 attribute split (15/9/12)?

E/Mo for instance. Offers party heal, great warrior damage migitation through blind, great spike assisst through orb or gale, condition removal through extinguish.
Paragon packing Song of restoration, ballad of restoration, Aria of restoration heals less than Heal Party spammer if he keeps spamming. Also heal party has radar range which is a big plus. So heal party spammer can run flag AND still reach with party heals 75% of the time.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

The problem isn't that paragons are underpowered, it's that people got used to them being overpowered, or that they want them to be carbon copies of other classes.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

This is just ignorance. I was running a 4 paragon build in tombs, each had an IAS a condition attack, Spear of Lightening as a spam skill and Cruel and Harrier's as spike skills. These paragons can deal a ridiculous amoung of DPS, can do a pretty nice spike and can buff their party enough to be quite resilient.

Yeah well sounds like iway, except instead of ward vs melee being a counter, shields up is.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

If you're complaining that a paragon can't do as much DPS as a warrior, then you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of balance. In which case I don't know why I'm bothering to reply.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

This is why Guild Wars has a class called "monk," Divert Hexes completely negates the threat that Vocal imposes.

Go to DoA outpost. Then first spend 30+ minutes getting a group as a paragon, then tell the monks in the group that they need to drop their monk elite for divert hexes for you. You will get instantly kicked, as you should. Any sane team would rather just bring any of the good standard builds than taking a paragon who also needs monk babysitting so he may be able to use any shouts or chants, a paragon which already doesn't bring anything to the table in high end pve and as such isn't worth bringing special skills for. Easier to just replace.

Let's compare vocal minority to other total shutdown.
Total spell shutdown = Shroud of silence, duration 10 rechrage 30, single target, elite, disables own spells, touch range
Total attack shutdown = Pacifism, duration 20, recharge 30, single target, ends when target takes damage, non-elite
Total shout/chant shutdown = Vocal minority, duration 20, recharge 20, WARD AOE, non-elite

Doesn't seem very fair now does it? There is a reason why Shourd of silence and pacifism are like that. First they have lower duration than recharge so you can't 100% shut down a single caster or attacker, then you also have a drawback(shroud of silence disables own spells so you can't cover on your own, also needs touch range, pacifism requires target to not take damage).

But Vocal minority just shutdowns Shouter/Chanter 100% with big aoe and no drawbacks. Completely unfair. And the largest groups paragon has that it doesn't affect are echoes who are indirectly affected(no shouts refrain drops and finales don't trigger).

InfernalSuffering · Dec 04, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Could you stop for once and try to grasp that elusive concept of balance? Paragons are not meant to out perform any of those professions, they're meant to provide a little healing, protection, damage and yes, even some aoe burning.

That was exactly my point. Paragons aren't the next big thing that would outplay a necro, monk, warrior, ranger, mesmer, or elementalist but simply to provide a general group buff. While part of that buff is in energy management, that is not (or wasnt supposed to be) their main function. And you must admit that when a non-elite skill performs much better than an elite skill it is broken.

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I still love my Paragon and don't see her as being nerfed at all. Then again, your loss. Deleting your Paragon because a few skills have been toned down isn't much different that a rage-quit in a PuG... sounds like the sort of thing a rage-quitter would do, actually.

I would have to agree, just what a rage-quitter would do. You don't just delete your character because of an update, you (and your going to love this oinkers) ADAPT. And by the way, adapting isnt a magic pill. It requires no prescription, no money, no anything. All you have to do is think really hard (no not like that I mean really, really hard) and you come up with a way to put that class/skill to good use. Have you done random arenas lately? There is practically a rt in every group. And no thats not because theyre useless. Its because they WORK. A class/build isnt bad simply because it doesnt perform the function you simply implore it to. Do you get angry at flag runners because they dont heal you? do melee damage? aoe damage? use smite skills? No I bet you dont.

for more information on ADAPTING consult your local wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaption

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

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Originally Posted by Spura

That lame build with 9 spear everyone runs is just pathetic. I do more damage with conjure fire and wand on elementalist.

So true. It's a sad day for paragons when a lame wanding ele does more damage.

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E/Mo for instance. Offers party heal, great warrior damage migitation through blind, great spike assisst through orb or gale, condition removal through extinguish.

I'm consistently amazed how durable E/Mos are - I sometimes play a HP spammer with Ether Prodigy in the Deep when monks are scarce and was surprised how effective it was. Paragons even when fully bulked up on Motivation simply can't compare, because it's too conditional and limited by range. I also play E/Mo with WoH on 90+ energy in SF when monks are scarce and I can't pump out WoH fast enough to use up my energy. Again, Paragons with 35 energy and 2 bips regen is fragile and plays like some Tinkertoy. A mis-speccd E/Mo trying to be healer is a better build that the entire Motivation line that Paragons have.

As for Paragons, good luck trying to get a DoA team - you'll get shut down totally by Vocal Minority and if you try to get a monk on the team to remove hexes, you'll be laughed at. As mentioned before, I find it inexplicable how come Paragons cannot counter hexes at all, when the main shutdown for Paragons is precisely a hex. Change to P/Me for Inspired Hex? Lose 2 out of 3 useful Paragons builds when you say bye bye to W secondary.

The 2 professions who will find it impossible to get Razah are paragons and sins.

Put 16 in spear chucking? Bleh. I prefer farming in pre-searing Ascalon with Gwen. At least her broken flute does more damage than my Darksong spear.

oinkers · Dec 05, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

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Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

I would have to agree, just what a rage-quitter would do. You don't just delete your character because of an update, you (and your going to love this oinkers) ADAPT.

You can adapt all you like, it's not going to make getting into a team any easier for Paragons. Non-paragons team leaders adapt by choosing core classes over Paragons - how's that for adapting your way into irrelevance?

Don't just bandy about words unless you mean it. Come up with a must have build that only Paragons excel in, and not some so-so healing here, so-so armor buff there. Make me a build that's as famous as nukers, or boon prots or meatbag tanks. Until then, your suggestions are exposed for being the empty soundbites that they are.

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... class/build isnt bad simply because it doesnt perform the function you simply implore it to. Do you get angry at flag runners because they dont heal you? do melee damage? aoe damage? use smite skills? No I bet you dont.

At least those classes have a FUNCTION. A Paragon has NOTHING that can't be replaced by others doing it BETTER without wasting a char slot.

Paragons

1. don't do melee damage like warriors can, can't rake thru enemies like dervs can
2. can't do AoE like nukers and SS can
3. can't spot heal/split-second infuse like monks can
4. can't mass prot like rits can
5. can't spike damage like sins can
6. can't provide meatbags like MMs can

That's a lot of can'ts.

They CAN do many things in a half-hearted fashion, which if you think is valuable then I say good luck to you!! (Someone earlier called this flexibility 'grand' lol - not like you're gonna get Grand Flexible Bender of Elona title or anything). But I don't think many people will think is a sufficient reason to keep around a char like that.

There's a reason why warriors and eles and monks are still around and outnumber the new professions - the game wasn't really designed with the 4 newer ones in mind and it shows.

vespertine · Dec 05, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

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Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

I would have to agree, just what a rage-quitter would do. You don't just delete your character because of an update

no, you do it because paragon just sucks.. i really was happy to see a new utility class, but after playing half through the game i just can't find any motivation at all to finnish nf with the paragon..

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Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

All you have to do is think really hard (no not like that I mean really, really hard) and you come up with a way to put that class/skill to good use.

as allready said somewhere in this thread: plz feel free to post some REAL practical builds to the paragon forum.. all that i can come up with is like a wasted character in any team.. i want to FEEL a difference between a group WITH and W/O a paragon..

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Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Have you done random arenas lately? There is practically a rt in every group. And no thats not because theyre useless. Its because they WORK. A class/build isnt bad simply because it doesnt perform the function you simply implore it to. Do you get angry at flag runners because they dont heal you? do melee damage? aoe damage? use smite skills? No I bet you dont.

well.. rits had the chance to establish themselves.. first they were great for def-buffs with their spirits, after the standard spiritspammer got (partly) nerfed it just lasted about a month until the whole channeling line got buffed ALOT. so now they even got 2 very usable operational areas..

just as you may have not noticed.. i don't think the recent update/nerf is the problem.. the problem IMHO is, that this class is defective by design..

B Ephekt · Dec 05, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

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However it sucks for DPS.

Well this is quite obvious, but tantamount to complaining that Dual Shot (2s activation, 10s rechrge) isn't good for DPS. It's cearly a spiking skill - this is obvious to anyone who understands the game - so why cry about it?

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Originally Posted by Spura

Eviscerate doesn't require target to stand still. At least in pvp people these days are only slowed 66% not actually standing still.
Not nearly as much as dervish/assassin/warrior.

I'm well aware of what the skill does, thanks. However, you might be surprised how easy it is to get the deep wound from it.

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Not nearly as much as dervish/assassin/warrior.

Correct, but they have the advantage of being able to deal damage at range. A paragon being able to deal as much damage as a melee-ranged class would be quite broken, so I fail to see your point.

The ranged damage is actually quite good pressure, much better than a ranger in fact. The 4 paragon build I mentioned earlier rolled absolutely everything, inluding builds with heavy assassin/dervish/warrior damage.

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The whole cost raise was unneeded.

No, it's something you should actually have to think about and conserve energy for. Like Infuse Health being 10 energy (which is a lot for a monk).

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You are putting words in our mouth, we never said we wanted paragon to be all of that.

Actually I was replying to oinker's posts, and only said that he "seemed" to want that. I was not addressing YOU with my post, nor was I putting words into anyone's mouth; I was merely making an observation. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my replies.

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The ENTIRE point was that the paragon can't do one thing well, and that cripples the entire class - everything from getting included in a PUG to having a sweet spot like the necros/rangers/eles/monks do. The Paragon has nothing to boast about except a finger in every pie, and a very piddly little finger it is too.

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We complained it isn't good at anything any more(at least not enough to be taken for that role over some other build). The negation of being good at nothing is being good at something. You implied it was being good at everything. Well we basically need at least one role that can be preferablly pugged in pve where paragon is stronger than other options. It used to be energy battery now it is nothing.

You're missing my point, which is that paragon is clearly a support class. They can help with damage negation, increasing their party's damage output and still do some damage themselves. They're not intended to be a DPS powerhouse or replace a monk; they're there to aid the other classes in doing their jobs. The problem here lies not with paragons being underpowered, but rather with misconceptions of certain players as to what the paragon should be. (Which is unfortunately a problem that can't be fixed with a game update.)

I will admit that paragons are sort of like mesmers and rits, in that they're not so great for pve, but can be quite useful in pvp.

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But nobody wants characters like that. They will just take specialised character.

You're right apparently, which is why NOBODY takes paragons into pvp anymore. Oh wait, they actually do... sorry.

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Actually I think restoration isn't about party heals, it is about spot heals. They are freaking powerful.

Actually, I think you missed my point. The paragon restoration skills are about dumb party heals, though. They're there to alleviate some pressure from the party and the monk's energy bars.

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That lame build with 9 spear everyone runs is just pathetic. I do more damage with conjure fire and wand on elementalist.

In pvp any extra damage you get can is useful. Two paragons throwing spear at people under Aggressive actually does an OK amount of damage. I've actually killed low targets by simply spearing them before, quite a few times actually.

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E/Mo for instance. Offers party heal, great warrior damage migitation through blind, great spike assisst through orb or gale, condition removal through extinguish.
Paragon packing Song of restoration, ballad of restoration, Aria of restoration heals less than Heal Party spammer if he keeps spamming. Also heal party has radar range which is a big plus. So heal party spammer can run flag AND still reach with party heals 75% of the time.

Your point is out of context and moot when you consider that a paragon would generally be a flag stand character in GvG, and the ele you're describing would be a runner.

Also, that paragon can participate in a spike as well, and buff the armor of the other party members in earshot... while the e/mo runs and spams Heal Party.

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Yeah well sounds like iway, except instead of ward vs melee being a counter, shields up is.

And this ia a valid point because? I find it funny that pvers always feel the need to throw out the "oh it's the new iway" comment whenever a build containts any sort of heavy pressure. FYI, your comments are pretty stupid when you consider that most GvG builds run 3-4 melee characters these days.

Anyway, yeah the paragon build is a "gimmick"... just as much as 3-4 warriors, dervishes or assassins is. Who cares, though it proves that paragons can deal good damage in the right situations.

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Go to DoA outpost. Then first spend 30+ minutes getting a group as a paragon,

I don't generally pve, so thanks, but I'll pass.

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Originally Posted by Spura

Let's compare vocal minority to other total shutdown.
Total spell shutdown = Shroud of silence, duration 10 rechrage 30, single target, elite, disables own spells, touch range
Total attack shutdown = Pacifism, duration 20, recharge 30, single target, ends when target takes damage, non-elite
Total shout/chant shutdown = Vocal minority, duration 20, recharge 20, WARD AOE, non-elite

Doesn't seem very fair now does it?

This seriously made me laugh. The obvious draw back is that it's a hex, which can be removed quite easily. If you seriously think Vocal shuts down paragons you must not do any pvp above RA level (sorry if this comes off as condescending, thatis not my intention). Seriously, Vocal needs to be buffed (shorter recharge, imo) to actually be an effective shutdown, because any decent team will have a copy of Divert hexes, Convert Hexes or Purge sig as a counter.

If you're talking about Vocal in a pve setting, then covers won't be an issue. It's not really Anets fault if your PUG monk doesn't have hex removal or you didn't put hex removal on your hero.