Curse

crucifix · Dec 01, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

so if any of you checked the update, paragons got beat in the face today. any ideas on how to circumvent energy issues aside from gfte spam and the now nerfed watch yourself?

Kaane · Dec 01, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Try it before you complain.

Playing my paragon, I have never even been CLOSE to having energy problems. All this update will do is put a little bit more pressure on your energy, making it slightly easier in pvp for mesmers to shut you down. It'll hardly effect pve at all. Also the Energizing Finale change isn't that bad. Monks managed fine before Paragons, they will manage fine now, they just won't have the infinite energy they had yesterday.

waywrong · Dec 01, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Put more points into Leadership? I've never really been below 10 energy all that often as a Paragon, even with just 10 in leadership.

WY! still provides free energy, and however much armor it provides is still better than no armor at all. Plus, it's not like energize finale really provided amazing energy management anyway unless you built your paragon around it. Leadership has always been better e-management in my book.

Made In Ascalon · Dec 01, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Watch Yourself needed the nerf. Paragons were utilizing it in a way that it was not intended to with its original creation. Giving the entire party within earshot +20 armor for only 4 adrenaline per 5 seconds without any points in tactics was broken.

Energizing finale needed it too, the energy gain was also broken.

Incoming needed the duration nerf badly. It was intended as a skill to prevent temporary spike damage, not to maintain permanently with vocal was sogolon + enduring harmony.

I congrajulate Anet for giving a bit more balance to paragons. Holdway groups won't be as impossible to defeat anymore.

Ulivious The Reaper · Dec 01, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

i never understood why people see 2 skills nerfed and then complain, play the game like you're supposed to, addapt(sp) learn to have fun, and god forbid don't complain when Anet FIXES things that were OBVIOUSLY being exploited

furbat · Dec 01, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulivious The Reaper

i never understood why people see 2 skills nerfed and then complain, play the game like you're supposed to, addapt(sp) learn to have fun, and god forbid don't complain when Anet FIXES things that were OBVIOUSLY being exploited

To be honest +20 armor to the team was half the reason paragons were good. The nerf to energizing finale and incomming reduced the effectiveness of paragons a great deal. Now, they no longer feed casters energy and provide defense. Now paragons do what? Bond with angelic bond, support team damage or provide heal party skills with motivation.

Batou of Nine · Dec 01, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Haven't been in PvP with my paragon... so can't say much bout it...

As far as PvE, hasn't affected me wahtsoever.
Incoming, not needed in PvE. Watch Yourself! my Koss uses it at 11 Tactics anyway. Bah, no worries so far!

cheers!

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 01, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Yey way to go Anet, about time u sorted them mass holding builds and u even managed to leave the paragon intact for PvE

Cebe · Dec 01, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

I just read those skill updates:

Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds.
Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1.
"Incoming!": Increased Energy cost to 10 and decreased duration to 1..5 seconds.
"Stand Your Ground!": Increased energy cost to 10.

COME OFF IT! Now my Paragon is pretty new and not got too far through the game, although I only use one of these skills it REALLY gets on my nerves that this sort of thing has already begun. I swear to god there was no need for this.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 01, 2006, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Well I hate to toot my own horn, but it seems like paragons are becoming just as useless in PvE as I said. >.>

I for one, LOVE the nerf, simply because people may finally see how limited the options for paragon are in PvE, and Anet may finally do something about it.
And please people, for the love of god, I'm NOT saying paragons are weak, simply that the vast, vast, VAST majority of their skills are useless in PvE.

(though, I have to say, I have been having ALOT of fun with a P/D build I made since I posted my angry thread that long time ago, and I've actually been having a bit of fun with the good ol' gon, so not all is lost yet)

LightningHell · Dec 01, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Paragons were nerfed because Energizing Finale was ridiculously broken, and a team with a Paragon meant a team immune to pressure.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 01, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Unless Fighting IWAY, then they felt the pressure. Surprisingly enough, IWAY saved GVG. YAY for IWAY!

nSin · Dec 01, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Well I hate to toot my own horn, but it seems like paragons are becoming just as useless in PvE as I said. >.>

I for one, LOVE the nerf, simply because people may finally see how limited the options for paragon are in PvE, and Anet may finally do something about it.
And please people, for the love of god, I'm NOT saying paragons are weak, simply that the vast, vast, VAST majority of their skills are useless in PvE.

(though, I have to say, I have been having ALOT of fun with a P/D build I made since I posted my angry thread that long time ago, and I've actually been having a bit of fun with the good ol' gon, so not all is lost yet)

Motivation healing still works perfect, regular damage with spear builds do too (anthem of flame and gfte) and a protection build with defensive anthem/shields up/WY/SYG (with points in tactics) still works fine aswell.

The skills they nerfed were rediculously overpowered, yet I didn't use any of them other then energizing finale and I still was extremely effective in PvE. Don't act like hell has frozen over, the majority of builds still work fine.

Lord Zado · Dec 01, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

The nerfs aren't too bad. Not nearly as bad as what they did to the Spirit Spamming Ritualist. I play a Paragon in PvE exclusively, but I watch observer mode enough to know how Paragons are affecting PvP too and understand why they needed the nerf.

Personally, this nerf doesn't affect my Command build or my motivation build too much. I run a damage reduction command build with SYG, WY, Incoming and They're on Fire. So Incoming lasts 2 seconds fewer and WY has a little less AL. No big deal in the grand scheme of things.

For motivation I generally run an energy buffing/healing build with Mending Refrain on all, Ballad of Restoration, Aria of Zeal, etc. I just lose the awesome energy buffing power of Energizing Finale, but it's still a useful skill...just balanced now.

Etrik · Dec 01, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

What are you talking about? Paragons own for PvE. GFTE+FTW+OoP+BR=one bad-ass paragon. Slap on Incoming, WY and RSig and you're fine. jeeez.

Spura · Dec 01, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Guess why people were spreading into 4 attributes with paragon? Because they put all the money skills of the class in one build. Now they nerfed 5 of those skills, which is entirely too much.

Another stupid consequence of upping those energy costs is that you are forced now to go P/W to spam adren shout or 2 for energy.

I am not pissed off at the nerf of Energizing finale. It was overpowered. I am pissed off at the designers of this skill and at cartwright. When designer made this skill, how could he not forseen how powerful it is? 3 energy every time shout ends, load up on shouts and presto infinite healing. Then Cartwright pulls one of his patented "Nerf the skill so hard it becomes useless and people forget about the skill and it ceases to be my problem" (TM), instead of re-designing the skill.

This whole class needs redesign and they aren't about to do that.
Paragons have bunch of redundant skills that do things other classes do better.

For instance all motivation skills renew HP, energy or remove conditions.
Now if you put bunch of Motivation skills that renew HP and remove conditions on your skillbar, you are just a gimped Heal Party+Extinguish spammer.

Conclusion: All motivation was ever good for was energy gain skills. And those got nerfed a lot. So now motivation is pretty much crap, I'd prefer heal party bot to motivation paragon in pvp settings at least.

Why the hell didn't they buff anything on paragon?
Spear skills are trash and many of them are just slight variations of the same skill. Deep wound and 3 sec cast damage attacks in 1000 flavours. Bring some options in there! Of course we will see hell freeze over before that.

Or skills like angelic protection, "help me", "The Power is Yours", do something about this useless trash.

They just nerf anything useful outside primary classes. Just wait till someone finds out a way to out-DPS warriors with dervishes. ANet will be breaking the speed of light to nerf the hell out of them.

random.name · Dec 01, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I dont get why people are upset about this. After seeing what happened to the Rit anyone could predict this.

The fact is that this game caters for PvP first. The skills that was changed in no way overpowered PvE. As you can see from some of the above posts, you can still be effective in PvE, but then again, even a Rit can still be effective in PvE.

My beef is that changes like this just makes it harder for me to find groups. When Rit was first introduced, I enjoyed it alot. It was fairly easy to find a group because they knew that you made a difference to the group. But then nerf after nerf it became harder. It finally reached the stage where the rit was accepted only because they could not find a monk. Same thing with Paragon. People in my guild and alliance up to now specifically requested that come help/do stuff with my Paragon, because it was easy to see what difference I made.

True, my post might be a little melodramatic, but I just see the Paragon becoming the Rit of NF.

Former Ruling · Dec 01, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifix

so if any of you checked the update, motivation battery paragons got beat in the face today. any ideas on how to circumvent energy issues aside from gfte spam and the now nerfed watch yourself?

Fixed your post.

Command and Leadership paragons were barely touched (alittle more energy on Watch Your Ground!, but you don't exactly spam it), and yes both of those have been used. CripAnt paragons (with Command skills), and Angelic Bondgons (with stuff like blazing finale and they're on fire) are here and there.

Feathers · Dec 01, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Well the nerfs always tick me off since most of the time it revolves around some P vs P aspect I could care nothing about. IMHO though they did a great job with this one and left us paragorns in the P vs E community with something worth while yet. It's always sad when the P vs P community gripes seem to over ride what the P vs E community wants

After the update my paragorn is still the battlefield commander he once was. What was said a few posts back, adapt and over come ? I couldn't agree more.

RitualEros · Dec 01, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

GG Anet for listening to the crying of pvper's and making paragons completly useless pve. As always, job well done!