Curse

Throttle · Dec 11, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

This is not meant to be a rant but a sincere inquiry. I've recently made a paragon and have been playing it through part of the game, and while the profession is functional, I can't help but feel that there's a lack of defined purpose to it. Many skills seem literally useless, most have strange conditions and very few skills have obvious uses. I don't have any elites yet so that could easily be part of the problem, but I still think that the Paragon's potential power is too intangible and vague.

The problems I see with most of the skills:

Way too situational to fit into a regular skillbar. Examples: "Can't touch this!", Lyric of purification, Disrupting Throw.

Effects are too insignificant, or need too much attribute investment to be useful. Examples: Aria of Zeal, Energizing Chorus, "Brace Yourself!", Mending Refrain.

Durations are too short, or requirments too hard to meet. Examples: "Fall Back!", Blazing Finale, Natural Temper.

Basically, my feeling is that a lot of these skills would be fine if they weren't so watered down. Many of the skills that give some bonus on your allies' next attack would be perfectly balanced if they had been on all attacks for the (usually very short) duration of the shout/chant. The heals are not great, the energy management skills are usable at best, never great. I understand some of them were nerfed, but with a skill like Energizing Finale, I can rarely get it to yield more than 3-5 energy in its 20-30 second duration - hardly anything that makes a big difference. The spear skills are all rubbish, either crossing over eachother too much (how much deep wounds do you really need?) or with requirments that make it too impractical to use. If your party has trouble surviving, an extra Monk would be more beneficial than a defensive Paragon. If your party doesn't deal enough damage, an extra offense Warrior, Dervish, nuker, <insert other 10+ damage characters> would be bettert than a Paragon specced for command or spears. It certainly has its uses, especially in PvP where your team is built around the skills and know exactly how/when to use it. But in PvE, with heroes/henchs or players you're not familiar with, I just can't see how the Paragon can do anything well enough to be a valuable choice over another profession that suits the needs. The word that best describes my feeling about this profession is "flimsy".

I hope to be proven wrong and I'd love to hear your ideas on what works, because I obviously haven't seen what the Paragon can do that makes it worthwhile. What did I miss?

IIIPowerIII · Dec 11, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:P/W_Party_Support

I like this paragon build so far.

Yes you need to have high attribute and? Usually you dont spread over 3 attribute anyway...

samcobra · Dec 11, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Paragons have their uses, and they're great at what they do. dont expect them to do things that they're not meant to do. They're meant for party support and commanding. They do this by their shouts, which are already overpowered, due to there being only 1 (and a half -> Well of Silence) counter to shouts. There are absolutely NO counters to echoes. Due to this imbalance, plus the inherent resilience of the paragon, I think it is a VERY VERY solid class.

clawofcrimson · Dec 11, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I see your point... and I think many of the paras skills should be buffed/changed... but i do agree with the above post. paras are useful in many situations. i use mine for chest running FOW and Tomb of Primeval Kings (the command line WILL increase damage a great deal in this situation... see my Bp para posts) as well as some support builds that work very well in pvp and pve... the only thing they really cannot do well is solo..since the entire class is based on shouts.

Dutch Masterr · Dec 11, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

paragon definatley are not over powered but i do agree that they are very situational and require favorable conditions to work. i really only see them useful in pve, in pvp they are the easiest targets to kill (from my expiriences).

ramma77 · Dec 15, 2006, 10:43 AM // 10:43

How is blazing finale a problem? It lasts longer than the recharge. all you do is put it on someone forget about it and start shouting. Easy

mending refrain. just spam it on your entire team. +4 regen ftw. whooooop.

Vocal minority is a counter to shouting. you could say any energy or adrenalin denial skill is countering as well.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Guild Wars is a TEAM BASED GAME, so of course a lot of the skills that provide party wide buffs are going to be useless in solo situations. But honestly, who solos?

Some of the skills are really bad though. And the spearmastery line needs a big buff.

furbat · Dec 21, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Spearmastery needs a huge buff. But in pvp angelic bond is reason enough to take a paragon. Angelic bond + Burning refrain + Gfte or watch yourself for e management + Finale of restoration on yourself and some team based chants of your choice and you are set. Angelic bond is really a sweet sweet skill.

strcpy · Dec 21, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Most of my paragon experience is with the hero. I have a paragon, but I generally dislike playing a support character. I tried her as a spear damage character but I never could find a build I felt was effective. I still find the following true, but I just do not find making AI's extremely effective fun - I want to do the killing

Right now, I find the paragon hero to be one of the best additions to the party. Note: pretty much all my experience is with henchies and heroes in PvE. I've beaten Nightfall and prophecies (about half missions masters all but one or two expert in Nightfall, about half bonus after LA, haven't gone back to earlier missions yet) and am about halfway through Factions (same as nightfall, about half masters, most expert - Tahnnakai Temple only standard so far).

"Go for the eyes" - always good, especially with a Minion Master
"Stand Your Ground" - really helps tanks. For my warrior and dervish a must, I normally take something else for my ele. For a balanced team I would either ask or just flip a coin.
Anthem of Flame - lots of burning being spread around. For a melee heavy team I like this one a lot
Hexbreaker Aria - in a hex heavy area it is great, I normally do not carry it though.
Aria of Restoration and Song of Restoration - *really* takes a lot of pressure off monks. Somewhat spamable and decent heal. These are almost a "must" to me.
Aria of Zeal - if you think this doesn't help, bring this with spell caster. Great return for the investment, especially true if in a party or taking a hero or two with high energy cost spells. Monks also tend to like this one, even the AI.
Mending refrain - With a paragon spamming shouts this is a constant +3. I usually have at least one melee as a /p spamming "Go for the Eyes" making it even more permanent.
Signet of Synergy - if you have a free slot it is a no energy heal every 10 seconds, not bad in my book.

You will note - no spear skills so no points in the spear. It is only there for adrenaline and its mods. That's kinda sad, I would *really* like to play a spear paragon. Like Furbat I would like to see spear mastery get a huge buff.

Is it "conditional"? Somewhat. A lot of the above skills are general. The healing and +energy chants are great staples of the Paragon as far as I am concerned. Having attack skills cause burning has a good damage output for its cost (very good IMO). Especially in PvE, you know what you are getting into. Given that it is really easy to swap a skill out here and there and are VERY powerful (hex removal, next skill interruptible, etc).

I would love to see a buff - it is already one of the best support classes as far as i can see. The paragon has the mesmer problem in the extreme though - when done well all the other classes work exceptionally well. It isn't a direct class. Add in that chants and echos only real counter (in PvE) is "well of silence" and even better.

It is rare I find myself standing around waiting on energy or health to regen. Only time I do is with an ele that spams high cost spells without their inherent energy management stuff up (AI is *real* bad about doing that). Hence, lots of easy masters on Factions, most WAY below the limit. No paragon and I wait on either energy or health to regen, not to mention noticeably longer battles.

bungusmaximus · Dec 21, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Fall Back para in a capping team in AB, who can't love speed buff for the entire party when running long stretches to cap shrines. I once had a guy like that in my team and he won us the match by making us cap faster then our opponent. Sounds pretty useful to me. Most teams run without monk so a little heal doesn't hurt either. I can't play a Para myself but man, i love 'em.

Thallandor · Dec 21, 2006, 09:50 AM // 09:50

P/W with an axe and command shield:

Constant burning + Axe AoE damage + unlimited energy + 70% to crit with every other hit = Pure Pwnage in PvE.

_________________________________
Once you go axe, you never look back
I use a sword currently but that dont count...

Grasping Darkness · Dec 21, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by IIIPowerIII

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:P/W_Party_Support

I like this paragon build so far.

Yes you need to have high attribute and? Usually you dont spread over 3 attribute anyway...

and that statement comes after your posted link to a build with not one maxed attribute and points spread over 3 catagories...

Mikizz · Dec 21, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

From my point of view Paragons are brilliant team players. I use a "protection monk" like build, just trying to minimize the damage my team takes and everything works smoothly. I finished NF completing every mission with Heroes and henchmen and I even got masters from the last two (Gate of Madness and Abaddon's Gate) so Paragons definitely aren't useless...

clawofcrimson · Dec 21, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I have been focusing on the Paragon in PVP pug such as AB and RA and i am now going for a title cuz of it (gladiators) they have some pretty useful skills when using them to shut down damage dealers... I myself havent tried the motivation line much... wouldnt a build that gives "pressure off of monks" be just a waist of space? would you be comfortable with just paragons protecting your team?

I wouldnt...

I think there are more useful purposes for the para....not to down play the motivation line..because again...I havnt played it much...but the benefits from the leadership/command line seem to outweigh the other two IMHO...

Pick Me · Dec 21, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Mending Refrain an echo that renews itself each time a chant or shout ends. Yes you must put more than 0 points to make it effective, however, as any Wa/Mo how many points into Healing Prayers they put in. What was the logic for not having Mending? Too many points into Healing Prayers to be effective, it is an enchantment, etc.

Mending Refrain is not an enchantment, it otherwise is the same as Mending. So, at least you can have runes to put into Motivation instead of having no runes in Healing Prayers

I like the Motivation line, but I don't have many skills yet (only level 11). I can't wait until I get to lvl 20. 1st Rank Sunspear, here I come!

strcpy · Dec 22, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

I myself havent tried the motivation line much... wouldnt a build that gives "pressure off of monks" be just a waist of space? would you be comfortable with just paragons protecting your team?

Let's put it this way - three monks (two heal and one prot) has a few deaths. Drop a monk (any of them, though usually one of the healers), add a paragon (I use essentially the above quoted p/w build). No one ever drops below half health, rarely below 3/4. Plus the casters have tons of energy and attacks critical often and enemies are burning about 3 of every ten seconds. And that is replacing with computer AI, humans do better.

So, would I be comfortable with just the paragon? Not really. It's almost comparable to a pure prot monk in the pressure it takes off the healers and you get a great boost to damage. I do not think many people consider a prot monk to be a waste of space.

Lets face it, it doesn't take someone well versed in healing to realize that having everyone in the party gain 105 health every 15 seconds for 5 energy (and because it is a chant, with decent leadership for free) is a little better than a waste of space. Add aria of restoration and (on top of that) all your spell casting squishies are getting *another* 104 health every 20 seconds.

Give it go, that was essentially the build the special update that pretty much just nerfed a few paragon skills was aimed at, you effectively had a bunch of bored monks. Even now I have to somewhat expect another nerf.

As to if I would depend on just this one build - no. It is not designed to do that. I'm not sure if you could get the paragon to do so, for one thing it can not handle spikes. But, like a prot monk, the total amount of damage mitigated is pretty high. The paragon is extremely focused on "team" and it would be *really* hard to rely on it. They only have a handful of skills that work on one character (kinda the opposite of monks - mostly single character stuff). But, this does allow the monk to focus only on one or two characters that are being spiked, everyone else is pretty much kept at full health by the paragon - that saves a lot of energy for when it is really needed. And, add in some of the great damage buffs and you have a winner in my book.

clawofcrimson · Dec 22, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

aaah...i see please excuse my ignorance... i will definitely start looking into the motivation line more

pingu666 · Dec 23, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

i run command on mine
go for the eyes, stand your ground, watch yourself, some partywide health regen when partymembers are below 75% health
erm its called "Never Surrender!"
for attack side ive got lightning spear, and focused anger
and the leadership res.

watch yourself and stand your ground = 40~ extra al, = halfing of damage to party, for a looong time