Curse

Feathers · Dec 31, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Armor of 80 and not exactly a first target for the AI like a monk or mezmer, how can this be a bad class to game with ? My Paragon rocks ! My first attempt at legendary survivor was with a paragon which hit 1,000,000 experience and beat the game before dying from my own stupidity, not because the class sucked. NO this class can solo the game with just his or her heros , I know I've done it with no help from PUGS.

Shadowfox1125 · Jan 01, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

As for long term replayability? Playing a Paragon feels like I've got the foot off the pedal - a bit disengaged from the action compared to say, a nuker, or a monk or a tank up front. You're too busy micro targetting your allies to put refrains/echos on to enjoy the action. A bit like playing a rit minion bomber and micro targetting Death Nova on minions - you end up too hassled to really enjoy the quest.

Exactly how I felt with my Paragon around the last missions of NF.. but I beat it because I was already there, so..

Jetdoc · Jan 02, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I personally believe that a PvE party without one paragon is significantly "gimped" in both their healing and damage dealing capacities.

As someone said earlier, 2 paragons is likely overkill, except for Go For The Eyes buffs.

I personally am loving the support role that a Paragon secondary has for my Ranger.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 03, 2007, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Paragons are great characters liek all they can be changed to fit several roles, ok there skills are limited atm, but then again they have less skills because they are new, they are unpopular atm because there limited skill wise and because theres so many of them and when u have alot of 1 char u tend to find alot of ones that arnt being played as effectively as they could

7thPawn · Jan 04, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

When I started in with NF I started with a Paragon. I thought they looked cool all around. I was very happy with the selection of the class and then I made the mistake of doing up a Dervish like a buddy had suggested and I was wading through bad guys like they were not even there. Then I went back to Paragon and I was so used to a forward pace that I was able to set with my Dervish, controlling the flow of battle by controlling which mobs were doing what by just personally killing everything in point blank AOE fashion, that Paragon just seemed..., almost slow. I couldn't control the groups of enemies by just killing everything in my path, I had to be a bit more strategic about it all.

So what does that mean? It could offer an insight as to why some might not go to the Paragon thing. Some people are so blinded by the sheer damage numbers that can be provided with other classes, and the fact that the class is a bit more subtle instead of in your face kick everything's butt, could be why some people might not like the class. I still like the class, and the only real problem I have with things is with a small hiccup I ran into with NF that made me throw in the towel on my insano destructo Dervish ways, but that is not a class problem. The main thing is the gear shift some people would have to do from doing solo farm/main damage dealer, to support. And I am convinced that most people can't shift gears very well, so Paragon gets a bad rap. What ever though. More fun for the rest of us.

blackdoctor · Jan 04, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Well, lets start, first of all Paragon it's not the fashion class like a Warrior or a Monk, the fact is that we have been seeing the same pattern with the sins. A lot of people use the class in different way than is designed or dont know how to use it correctly. I clearly understood all those people complaining about Paragons dps, but that's not the main role of a Paragon. Go Motivation and you will see a huge difference and adds a great value to every team.

Just take a look to this basic build:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:P/W_Party_Support

Regards

oinkers · Jan 04, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackdoctor

Just take a look to this basic build:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:P/W_Party_Support

Regards

]

Tried that already. Even put in Song of Power to help trappers, but all the skills are too gimped. No one wants paragons in DoA.

blackdoctor · Jan 04, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Yeah i had that bad experience from many people with my sin, no matter if you are a good player or if you have a good build, if they did not want a sin in the past now is the para, and my best solution is go with heroes, friends or guildies.

Regards

oinkers · Jan 04, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackdoctor

if they did not want a sin in the past now is the para, and my best solution is go with heroes, friends or guildies.

I got a better solution. After finishing NF with my Para, I salvaged all his vabbian armor for gems/runes, sold them, and deleted the char.

CagedinSanity · Jan 05, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

As for long term replayability? Playing a Paragon feels like I've got the foot off the pedal - a bit disengaged from the action compared to say, a nuker, or a monk or a tank up front. You're too busy micro targetting your allies to put refrains/echos on to enjoy the action. A bit like playing a rit minion bomber and micro targetting Death Nova on minions - you end up too hassled to really enjoy the quest.

Since when did paragons always *have* to be a support character? My paragon has points shoved into spear mastery with hard hitting mess.
I do have one elite chant but it's not that impressive.

Strangely my paragon has not yet had a problem finding a group. Even though they *might* think I'm some sort of pure motivation guy. Hopefully Anet will add some more skills so people will start asking "you spear or motiv?"

oinkers · Jan 05, 2007, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Since when did paragons always *have* to be a support character?

Would be nice if more Paragons played spear, but the range of spear skills reminds me of Rit channeling skills when they first came out - underpowered, too conditional and too little variation. ANet might buff it in future, but unless that happens I dont think you'll find many spear chucking paragons with high points in spear, compared to motivation/command.

Spears need a buff in the multi-target skill area, a bit like Barrage for rangers, but for spears instead.

FoxBat · Jan 05, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Spears can be nice pressure IF you have IAS. RaOs love it, and we got rocked recently by a high-ranked HA team running flail warriors with spear (don't need to run so much with a ranged weap) So for paras... that leaves aggresive refrain or soldier's stance, and either of them are going to need 1 or 2 shouts to maintain.

Keithark · Jan 05, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I have w,n,e,and r thru the 3 games...just started p and m in nightfall (i dread getting thru the other 2 on monk until I get all the skills that I need from tyria and cantha) so I have little xp as a paragon, but seems to me p/r with pet and RaO would be massive damage...cause burning, poison, bleeding and 33% faster attack speed. Is my thinking flawed? I have only level 5 so far and haven't picked secondary yet

wilebill · Jan 05, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Ok, the Paragon's usefulness is debatable in DoA and the Para mostly loses those debates! But this does not mean it is a bad char, not at all!

I run a Para, Command 12, Leadership 12, Spear 12 and it is really great in most of the game just with Heroes, Koss, Dunkoro, and Olias MM. The Fantastic Four! Beyond the Vortex, yes I need more on the demon maps, but I've done most of Domain of Secrets with just my Para and the three heroes.

Grenth's Footprint, easy. The Fantastic Four can get surprisingly far into Sorrow's Furnace, though I usually add on a friend who is a Quickshot Interrupt Ranger for that, and we go in as five man Oro quest mostly. The Fantastic Four take down any Kurzick or Luxon map, Mourning Veil Falls is my favorite and great fun. Prophecies is our playground. Die Kephket, die!

Inscriptions, just armor +10 when under effects of a shout or chant. Skills:

Leader's Comfort
Stand Your Ground
Soldier's Fury
Go For the Eyes
Vicious Attack
Anthem of Flame
Never Surrender
They're On Fire

Real bread and butter, knucklehead build, for lazy people like me who are allergic to work. Rez sig? Naaaah! Riches, loot, greens! Huzzah!

oinkers · Jan 06, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

Ok, the Paragon's usefulness is debatable in DoA and the Para mostly loses those debates! But this does not mean it is a bad char, not at all!

...

Die Kephket, die!

Yeah, it's possible to do SF with a 5man including a Para, but it's not quite optimal. As for Kepkhet, my Rit solos it in about 10mins, so no green drops are stolen by heros. And no need for the flagging away technique either - my Rit has real balls.

It is easy to play most of Tyria/Cantha/Elona with a Paragon, but there's not enough variation in Motivation to make Paragons real good party buffers, at least not enough to be recognised as such by other players. Too many builds have a near-even 3 attribute spread, e.g. 12/13/12 which severely weakens most of the effectiveness of the skills. Most skills are not very good at 12. You can go 2 point spreads to increase Motivation to 15 (and putting the remainder mostly in Leadership or Command) but then using the spear is like poking someone with a toothpick.

Compared to a vengeful Rit/Me with a full 16 in resto - well, you get my drift.

CagedinSanity · Jan 06, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

I think this has already been implied or already stated, but there's a decent chance the paragons will be extended or buffed at some point. They would almost have to be.
The assassin's somewhat were. It would make sense, I doubt Anet would want to waste their time with a class noone uses (except for nubs who are new to GW and got NF first altogether.)

pingu666 · Jan 06, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

well i really like mine, he seems rather effective to me (and every group he goes in) and yesterday i did elona reach with a motivation para in the team, and my energy never droped below half.

paragons really shine as group support, that is there reason for being really...

Belriku · Jan 08, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

I prefer play Paragon in PvE because it's better than a Warrior ... as some team want 2W, 2P is the best way ~.~. it's just my opinion and stupid players won't change because they don't want to try ... So, my Para play alone in heroway, but there's no problem cause it's my 8th charac, but I understand new players who want to play Para and don't find groups...
Poor Gw...

Patrick Smit · Jan 08, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackdoctor

Well, lets start, first of all Paragon it's not the fashion class like a Warrior or a Monk, the fact is that we have been seeing the same pattern with the sins. A lot of people use the class in different way than is designed or dont know how to use it correctly. I clearly understood all those people complaining about Paragons dps, but that's not the main role of a Paragon. Go Motivation and you will see a huge difference and adds a great value to every team.

Just take a look to this basic build:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:P/W_Party_Support

Regards

This one can even synergize with the paragon i use, either as character or as hero:

1 They are on fire
2 Never surrender/Anthem of flame (last if u have physical based party)
3 Go for the eyes
4 Defensive anthem
5 Fall Back
6 Stand your ground
7 Aggresive refrain
8 Signet of return

I slash through enemies like nothing alike, i was working with a jagged mm before, but this allows much greater speed to progress instead of waiting for Olias ^^. I try to take two sf eles and the rest is optional, people don't understand why you want to take these heroes, but after a bit they will understand. All characters have turned into tanks.

crime.mob · Jan 08, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

ugh, paragons are the most misunderstood class in the game, and just like the RT they just have to gain momentum ( i read a bunch of posts saying that RT is never seen but by the time NF came out and i played the game, I saw RTs almost as often as I saw all the other casters)

i guess paragons were played a lot in the beginning of NF, but as of now they are the rarest class in the game. Though I see several on PvE NF (not nearly as much as dervish, warrior, ranger, necro, etc), its a rare encounter to find one on pvp or find a good one on pve

I was hesitant to pick the paragon because they seemed to rigid and undiverse, guess I was right! their primary makes the HAVE to rely on shouts and chants, and makes them more effective with more ppl, like GVG or alliance (which is why i tone my primary down to 8 or 9 on random or team arenas). Once your done shouting, your given a small gap of energy to add whatever else you would like, be it something from another class, a costly command skill, or, more commonly, just another spear skill

If i over use my "other" non chant skills, my energy bar rapidly hits 0, making me stick to very cheap "other" skills or make them soley rely on adrenaline...

Now that im done bashing the paragon, this is why i stuck with him:

they have TOUGH spear skills. I have a P and a R, and i hit ALOT more dmg with my spear than my bow, and can interupt, bleed, wound, etc. my opponent without any "catches" (a bow skill would have a preparation to add an affect or give you a condition to add a condition, like the enemy has to be running or something. And to top it all, bow generally does less dmg).

In pve good paragons are rare, and people let me tag along (even though i am a lower lvl than them) because paragons have several heals and buffs that help the team rather than the single dmg dealing warrior.

Also in pvp (random) i always thought my paragon was made for gvg or alliance battles and only played him because he was the only char i had a decent build on at the time. Well after experamenting, and even using straight out generic builds (like the avg ranger, avg warrior, etc) i found out that i won a lot more with my paragon (even more so than with my monk!).

This is because the paragon has buffs that either give effects (burning, xtra dmg, or CRIPPILING) to their entire team's attacks, can boost the team's energy or adrenaline, or HEAL. And they can do all this while not being targeted by anybody, because they are such an oddity (and they have tougher armor than casters). Healing builds generally heal less than a monk, so they shouldn't just soley heal, but unlike a monk they can deal very generous amounts of dmg and can increase the energy and att dmg of their allies.