Curse

CagedinSanity · Dec 28, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I have searched through some of the threads in this section. Many threads discuss builds, and often times there is a reply that compeltely shoots down the idea.

I made a Dervish recently, got her to a level 13 in a couple days. Normal PvE stuff. I got stuck at jokanur diggings (because it's hard to find a team there that doesn't suck) So I thought, "Why Don't I make a paragon? Just to humor myself."

A few hours later, my Paragon is a level 13 hulking tank of badass. With a customized Eshau's spear (I figured customizing it was a good idea, since I'll probably never be able to sell it, with the low demand of paragons and all...) and some decent spear skills (15 spear, i posted my build on the Build directory here.) I hit for some massive damage on PvE monsters.
A couple hours after that, a level 20. Blowing through primary quests and missions like nothing.

I have accomplished in a day that I couldn't do on my dervish in two-three days,

So I think say to myself, how and why are/were paragons so underestimated? I have yet to find an answer.

oinkers · Dec 28, 2006, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Because in PvE there are only 1 or 2 good builds for a Para, and there are too many Paragons hanging around trying to make a team for missions. There's no point having 2 Para in the same team with Watch Yourself/GFTE/Theyre On Fire on top of each other - unlike monks where you'll typically need 2 each difficult mission.

I think buffing the party only goes so far in making a char. Adding animations to show the buffing works (like energy gains or health gains) might help in reinforcing the worth of the Paragon, but I seriously doubt that will happen as the animations used look like they haven't had much attention on them e.g. Focused Anger has no animations at all.

Once you reach DoA, you'll understand how little benefit the Paragon actually brings to the team. It brings so little, most teams prefer not to use a Paragon. For a supposed party-wide buffer, it speaks volumes as to how much depth the char has.

So if you have a Paragon, you'll find the early part of the game easy enough to get through, but you wont find many willing takers of Paragons in teams for the harder areas later in the game.

As for long term replayability? Playing a Paragon feels like I've got the foot off the pedal - a bit disengaged from the action compared to say, a nuker, or a monk or a tank up front. You're too busy micro targetting your allies to put refrains/echos on to enjoy the action. A bit like playing a rit minion bomber and micro targetting Death Nova on minions - you end up too hassled to really enjoy the quest.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 28, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

I like paragons for most mindless missions, particularly when I play warrior. If I could get someone to maintain strength of honor and judge's insight on me while GFTE! is up every time it's charged I'd be a happy man.

However, Oinkers touches on everything that fails them--a lack of viable elites hurts them quite a bit on the build versatility department.

pingu666 · Dec 28, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

just go command and take teambuffs only

think i run,
spear of lightning
focused anger
watch yourself
go for the eyes
antham of flame
stand your ground
never surrender
paragon reuseable res signet thingy

you can give the team +40al with watch yourself and stand your ground nearly continously. which halves most damage

i think most paragons ingame ive come across run a build dominated by spear, motivation or leadership, few have command

. they also dont pickup skills avalible later in the game too. :/

clawofcrimson · Dec 28, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Paragons interested me from the start..but I have to agree with the other posts....I have been trying pretty hard to come up with some good builds for the paragon in both pvp and pve

... the truth is... there is not much variety...

just go to wiki and see what "accepted" builds look like.... pretty bland

edit: this seems to be the general view...not that the basic setup of the paragon is disliked (armour, ranged etc..) its the skills that leave us wanting more... the second highest armour in the game, the high ranged attack speed, the ability to carry a sheild... these are well liked.... but the skills force you into pretty narrow builds...

and while I've found that the paragon has some valid skills to offer in less organized pvp and pve... when it comes down to it... the higher level areas/games do not favour paragons over the core proffessions...(same for the assasin... and sometimes ritualist and dervish) .... and I simply blame the skills set we paras have to work with...

Mortanius · Dec 28, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

The spear mastery line is why I dislike them tbh.

I mean, sure the party wide buffs are nice, but the spear line is just disappointing.

CagedinSanity · Dec 29, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortanius

The spear mastery line is why I dislike them tbh.

I mean, sure the party wide buffs are nice, but the spear line is just disappointing.

That's where I disagree. I got a little 4-hit combo all spear attacks, and they hit for some pretty heavy damage.

Luckily for me, I probably won't get to said "high level areas" for a long time. I have a level 20 tank I've had for 4 months and still hasn't gotten past Nahpui Corner (factions tank), And even when I past that, there's the temple quest I still need to do. These areas are pretty annoying to get through.

Same concept will happen with my Paragon, I'm willing to bet.

pingu666 · Dec 29, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

my NF enjoyment dipped alot at the end, and yep, nahpui quarter D:

strcpy · Dec 29, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

If I want to blow through a mission (so far, anyplace I can take henchies, only places I have left are unwaking waters and on in Factions) I use a build around a paragon. Two melee (in my case a Dervish and Koss), a prot monk, and a paragon (rest hench).

But then, it does suffer from the "only one effective build" syndrome and it is a "team" build in that my character and the rest of the heroes have to be built around it. I find it fairly effective even in Torment missions, Sorrows Furnace, and Tombs of the Primeval Kings.

Since it is the hero I don't really care if it is only one effective build as long as it is effective.

From what I've read my searing flames elementalist would do well with a "they're on fire" build, but she hasn't made it far enough yet to see. It will probably be some time before she does and the next skill balance will most likely totally change it anyway.

They also suffer from the Mesmer condition that if done really well the missions just go by very fast - it is not a direct damage or heal. Too many need that to know if a party member is being useful. Plus it is easy to be worthless in both professions - a bad player doesn't do the party any good at all. Personally I like the paragon and find it useful. On an 8 man party there is always at least one slot for "other", usually two and a paragon fills that role better than most (if played well).

Devil Lil Assassin · Dec 29, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

If you could go back to when factions first came out and read all the flame threads about Assassins you would see alot of the exact same arguements I just read in this thread about Assassins being worthless for pvp and pve. Although I do agree the skill set of the Paragon could be improved, especially with the elites, but overall if the player is competent and knows how to use the skills they have Paragon is a good addition to any team. Not as much in pvp, but certainly in pve the Paragon can be a very valuable team member.

CagedinSanity · Dec 29, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devil Lil Assassin

If you could go back to when factions first came out and read all the flame threads about Assassins you would see alot of the exact same arguements I just read in this thread about Assassins being worthless for pvp and pve. Although I do agree the skill set of the Paragon could be improved, especially with the elites, but overall if the player is competent and knows how to use the skills they have Paragon is a good addition to any team. Not as much in pvp, but certainly in pve the Paragon can be a very valuable team member.

I would totally love assassins if they didn't die so easily. Perhaps they could use a 10 point armor upgrade or something. Perhaps a 2-3 point weapon upgrade. assassins are fun to play, but personally I'm not much good with them. Very sad indeed.
Blah, sorry for being off topic there.

As i go farther into the higher level missions and areas of NF, I'm seeing more and more Paragons. Are they not nearly hated as much as I originally thought?

clawofcrimson · Dec 29, 2006, 05:14 PM // 17:14

/agreed....and you will see me trying to make builds that keep the para out of the "one role" mindset....in fact I have been having a good time playing the para in random arenas...getting one or two glad points a night..(glads title here i come)...you can view the builds in these threads...

Strange Brew · Dec 29, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Been here a hundred times before..

I remember sitting at warcamp for hours with my ranger and couldn't geta party for love nor money. That was before folks discovered the joys of B/P.

Then came the mesmer, still not really appreciated in PvE, but once upon a time was completely disregarded as a viable team player. Now my guildies & alliance never do FoW/UW without a mes. And she's breezing through Nf like there's no tomorrow.

Had a few occasions where my Necro was not takes seriously (unless running minions) either. Took a long while to convince my fellow guild wammos and monks that I was actually doing something useful with SS. Sometimes they have to see it to believe it.

Assassin, well I made one and deleted her shortly after lvl 20, when Factions first arrived. I have made one since and have been all over Tyria and Cantha with her pretty successfully, albeit it mainly with heroes and hench.

Monks have had it too good for too long, and there have been some pretty obnoxious monks out there. The competition monks are now finding from heroes is forcing real monks to feel unloved atm.

And now paragons and dervish. The current hated classes.

Just hang in there. Play with heroes and hench if you have to. It's only a matter of time before you find your real game niche. A few ANerfs along the way should help to buff/balance these characters. There are already emerging some good party support builds for paras and excellent running builds for dervys.

Your time will come.

clawofcrimson · Dec 29, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

yes...its all about the general gw gaming public... its not like there aren't good builds out there...its just the non core discriminators that make you feel like poo...

I have been doing well in pvp with my para...as well as providing a clear value in pve as I find others to play with....

oinkers · Dec 29, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I think in PvE the single buff to Song Of Power to make non-terminate on use of a skill, or less conditional, would make a new party-bipper build available. That would be amazing.

I think an elite that was like Barrage, but for spears - i.e. hit multiple targets, would make the Para go someway to be a real *direct* damage dealer that is apparent to other team players, instead of doing so indirectly via GFTE etc.

Devil Lil Assassin · Dec 29, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

The biggest problem I noticed with the players of this game since the release is that once a good build is found for any profession, for either pvp or pve, then there seems to be about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 people that absolutely have to go make one. Hence the 55monk and 55necro builds, shock wars, minion masters, blood spike necro, and of course when factions came out there was more nooblar assassin than even I can count.

Whether it's a new profession, or a new build for an existing profession that works really well, people are going to make one to try it out. So basicly until they either master it or get sick of it we're stuck with the flood.

I think that's the main reason Assassins and now Paragons are disliked. It also has to do with people not liking the skills they get, but then again maybe they're just too lazy to use those skills to make a new build.

I say give it a few more weeks/months let the people try Paragon and if they decide they like it they might come up with something useful. If they decide they hate it well then that's one less player using that profession if they're no good at it.

Apok Omen · Dec 29, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

The only thing worth saying is this: The Core classes will always remain better than any hybrid profession.

Sure, Paragons have great party buffs, but truth be told, the core classes do it better. The spear line is great, but hardly anyone uses them for that reason. Their chants last a short while, then take longer to recharge.

However, they are not unwanted. Their buffs are special and unique. And so, they fit in a special build made for Elite missions. and, don't count them out for DoA, either. Many builds can use a paragon, but only for full defensive measures.

clawofcrimson · Dec 29, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

I think an elite that was like Barrage, but for spears - i.e. hit multiple targets, would make the Para go someway to be a real *direct* damage dealer that is apparent to other team players, instead of doing so indirectly via GFTE etc.

Ive thought of that too!

explosive tipped spear FTW

target takes x damage and adjacent enemies are set of fire for x seconds

...heh

that would be nice..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

The only thing worth saying is this: The Core classes will always remain better than any hybrid profession.

Sure, Paragons have great party buffs, but truth be told, the core classes do it better. The spear line is great, but hardly anyone uses them for that reason. Their chants last a short while, then take longer to recharge.

However, they are not unwanted. Their buffs are special and unique. And so, they fit in a special build made for Elite missions. and, don't count them out for DoA, either. Many builds can use a paragon, but only for full defensive measures.

Im not sure I agree that the core proffessions are "better" I would say that they are more foundational... and more widely used ... and have WAY more skills to choose from...and actually have a niche..... but..... Im not sure about better.....

pingu666 · Dec 30, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

people know what to expect from the core classes too.

stand your ground + watch yourself is probably better than aegis spam anyways, go for the eyes goes well with minion masters (potentialy 14+ "melee" allies)
antham of flame (2sec burning), assusuming 6 attackers = 28x6 = 168 damage, amour ignoring

every 10seconds~

damage from spear isnt too shaby either

CagedinSanity · Dec 31, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

damage from spear isnt too shaby either

Yes! It's good to know someone finally sees that.
I'm off farming kournans and hitting 70's and 50's with skills and such (Which isn't bad mind you.) How can people say paragons suck with that >_<