Curse

Mad5cout · Jan 28, 2007, 06:15 AM // 06:15

The Glyph of lesser energy is actually the first idea/alteration I've heard to this build that actually makes any sense.

The MoR suggestion is still really stupid to me... why cast MoR, then take the time to cycle through to ge tthe burning. That means you take like 10 seconds to get enough burning going to make ToF even worth it. With SF, the ToF is working right away, and the fight is over in the same amout of time the MoF version takes to finally get to attacking each enemy once.

@clawofcrimson: I respect your opinion as you have contributed positively to many of the paragon threads, but I still don't see the need to wait. I have never had a problem with energy management with this build and I don't even have all the right runes.

@Thom: Paragons have 30 base energy not 25. That's a warrior. Also, I run this build only when I have more than on SF in the party. Not that it doesn't work without that, but, as I have said in the past, paragons work best when they compliment the groups they are going with. If I have an SF or two in my group, I would run this. If I have a B/P group, I run GFTE/Envy. And so on...

Although, again, the point here is that this build is self sufficient. Stop focusing on the SF damage and how it can be better with a superior rune in. That's not the main point. Its that ToF gives you 53% (with the rune) damage reduction and SF is the simplest and best way to keep massive groups of enemies burning. period. It's that simple. This build serves that purpose even without other SFs to maximize the spell.

My god people stop complaining about the energy. If you still think that there is not enough energy, there are only three possibilites that could explain this:

1 you have not even tried the build and have no business commenting, anyway.
2 you have tried the build but need to practice and actually read the casting progression I posted. IE: try the build and don't suck at it, then pass judgement.
3 you are a complete moron and don't understand how paragons work at all.

The only things that make this build falter on the energy is Quickening Zephyr or A LOT of interrupts at the wrong time. This guy recovers quickly from a missed Glowing Gaze if you just keep attacking and use your shouts.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 28, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

You're trying to justify running an elite on a character that shouldn't be able to support by making questionable armor and weapon choices to do what another character should be doing.

While I think "They're on fire!" is a great skill, trying to justify running searing flames on a paragon when you could put it on eles is a bad decision. Seriously, it's on par with a warrior running meteor shower, only you have a second skill that works with it.

Sutch · Jan 28, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

you mean there's not a sf ele in every group you play in?

That's just being unreasonable. Is this forum used only to discuss organized team builds? No, I don't think so. Many of us play in PUG's. You can't always have a SF ele friend with you. You made it pretty clear you don't approve of this build. A build you probably haven't even tested. You haven't even really countered any of the arguments made by people on this thread. All you can come up with is "You're stupid for not having an Ele play with you". All I know is that builds like this can maintain a constant spam of SF while providing 53% party wide damage reduction. How can you go wrong with that?

Mad5cout · Jan 29, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

You're trying to justify running an elite on a character that shouldn't be able to support by making questionable armor and weapon choices to do what another character should be doing.

While I think "They're on fire!" is a great skill, trying to justify running searing flames on a paragon when you could put it on eles is a bad decision. Seriously, it's on par with a warrior running meteor shower, only you have a second skill that works with it.

That is like saying that a Grenth's Balance Warrior is a stupid build because the elite is off the secondary...

Or that a W/Mo should not use any of the smiting or Prot elites from the monk side.

or that a E/Mo healer, should use an ele elite rather than something synergistic to its build.

or that a 55 monk shouldn't carry a totem axe to tank... cause after all, a monk isn't "supposed" to tank, right?

Sorry, man, that is just faulty reasoning. Just because the elite is from the secondary class doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or that it isn't meant to use it. Just because people are using a focus item instead of a shield and spear to help the build doesn't mean its a bad build. I don't have to "justify" anything. It simply makes sense. Oh, btw, IT WORKS, too...

Thom Bangalter · Jan 29, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

That is like saying that a Grenth's Balance Warrior is a stupid build because the elite is off the secondary...

Or that a W/Mo should not use any of the smiting or Prot elites from the monk side.

or that a E/Mo healer, should use an ele elite rather than something synergistic to its build.

or that a 55 monk shouldn't carry a totem axe to tank... cause after all, a monk isn't "supposed" to tank, right?

solo farming =/= legitimate team build. E/mo healers suck.

Mad5cout · Jan 29, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

wow... you got me there...

Vermilion · Jan 29, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

@OP-I do like the build, if only in that its.."Creative". Using SF with an 80al+ class has its uses in any case. If you really cannot find a primary Ele SF then I guess it would be okay. I like my paras to be paras most of the time though.

Last thing..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

That is like saying that a Grenth's Balance Warrior is a stupid build because the elite is off the secondary...

Or that a W/Mo should not use any of the smiting or Prot elites from the monk side.

or that a E/Mo healer, should use an ele elite rather than something synergistic to its build.

or that a 55 monk shouldn't carry a totem axe to tank... cause after all, a monk isn't "supposed" to tank, right?

I try to avoid pugging, but I would probably kick anyone with builds like these in a pug. I believe in the idea that your primary class is what you should be first, and you use your secondary to help you do that. Basically, theres no reason to run any of those..55 monks + GB wars=useless outside of solofarming. And E/mo healers really do suck. There is no reason to not run primary monks, because there are always hench/heroes available anyway to allow the ele to actually do something. Bring Heal party if you need to heal something.

LightningHell · Jan 29, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

That is like saying that a Grenth's Balance Warrior is a stupid build because the elite is off the secondary...

Or that a W/Mo should not use any of the smiting or Prot elites from the monk side.

or that a E/Mo healer, should use an ele elite rather than something synergistic to its build.

or that a 55 monk shouldn't carry a totem axe to tank... cause after all, a monk isn't "supposed" to tank, right?

Sorry, man, that is just faulty reasoning. Just because the elite is from the secondary class doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or that it isn't meant to use it. Just because people are using a focus item instead of a shield and spear to help the build doesn't mean its a bad build. I don't have to "justify" anything. It simply makes sense. Oh, btw, IT WORKS, too...

Grenth's Balance, and/or any of the Monk elites should NOT be on a Warrior's bar, firstly.

E/Mo "healers" suck. I think what you may be referring to is a E/Mo (Insert element here) ele that has the power via Ether Prodigy to constantly pump out Heal Party. In that case, it's not really a "healer" per se.

55 monks aren't team builds, kthx.

The build is good for its originality, nothing more.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 29, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

@OP-I do like the build, if only in that its.."Creative".

I've seen it before.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0075533&page=1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

wow... you got me there...

I sure did.

Quote:

"You're stupid for not having an Ele play with you". All I know is that builds like this can maintain a constant spam of SF while providing 53% party wide damage reduction. How can you go wrong with that?

I didn't say that. This is what I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

While I think "They're on fire!" is a great skill, trying to justify running searing flames on a paragon when you could put it on eles is a bad decision. Seriously, it's on par with a warrior running meteor shower, only you have a second skill that works with it.

Look! It's constructive. Of course, I do have some mean posts, but mostly because the replies I get back show a lack of knowledge when it comes to game mechanics, particularly with regards to skill usage and selection, as well as optimization of both party builds and individual builds.

Quote:

Is this forum used only to discuss organized team builds? No, I don't think so.

Oh?

Quote:

providing 53% party wide damage reduction.

Seems like you're making a character with a team in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

Many of us play in PUG's. You can't always have a SF ele friend with you.

My friend Zhed always parties with me, and he's pretty good, he just can't quite grasp glyph sac+rez chant quite yet, but he's working on it.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 29, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

My friend Zhed always parties with me, and he's pretty good, he just can't quite grasp glyph sac+rez chant quite yet, but he's working on it.

Too bad your buddy Zhed can't grasp the notion of spreading out fire on the maximum number of foes possible. And neither can any other hero for that matter.

The purpose of the Searing Para is to keep multiple mobs on fire to maximize the protection from They're on Fire. A Searing Flames ele Hero will spam it on the same mob for some nice damage after the initial burning which is great but it's not the same thing.

While your eles are burning the targeted foes or your melee heroes/hench are burning them w Blazing Finale, you can target other mobs and reduce the dmg from those mobs. It takes a ton of micromanagement to get your SF ele heroes to do this.

So, sure, take ur Ele heroes... I usually do. But remember that they can't do the same thing as the SF para.

As an aside: I don't buy into any kind of doctrine regarding GW such as "Elite must be from your primary" or some other such bunkum as long as a build works. Touch rangers and Fast Cast Mes/Eles, to name a few, long ago laid rest to these so-called "rules."

Mad5cout · Jan 29, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

First, @Thom: Half the quotes you used in your last post were not from me. Please don't misquote me as you claim I did for you (I believe I merely paraphrased your "bad decision" remark). In any case I did not take someone else's words verbatim and call them yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Grenth's Balance, and/or any of the Monk elites should NOT be on a Warrior's bar, firstly.

E/Mo "healers" suck. I think what you may be referring to is a E/Mo (Insert element here) ele that has the power via Ether Prodigy to constantly pump out Heal Party. In that case, it's not really a "healer" per se.

55 monks aren't team builds, kthx.

The build is good for its originality, nothing more.

I have use Grenth's Balance on my axe warrior since I made him in groups and for solo farming. Certainly there are otehr viable builds and perhaps better ones but that is what I like. I don't think you can claim that it is ONLY for solo farm. It's a good skill for tanking and killing bosses quick. Period. It works BETTER on a Warrior than a necro primary due to the higher base HP. It was a skill that was practically MADE to be used on a secondary for a Warrior.

55 monk's are not team builds, but if you actually read my original post this was in reply to the comment that it is dumb to turn in your spear and shield for focus items and or wands to aid in the build. I was pointing out that there are other builds that use weapons out of their class, such as 55 monks, ranger thumpers, etc that use these items because they make sense...

I went over to the warrior builds directory and found many warrior builds that make use of shield of judgment, healing hands, mark of protection skills in their bar. Now that is not to say that these are all good builds but there are certainly tank builds that make great use of the protection elites. There are also countless other builds in other primaries that use secondary elites. My point is that saying you shouldn't use an elite simply because it is from your secondary class, is a logical fallacy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I do have some mean posts, but mostly because the replies I get back show a lack of knowledge when it comes to game mechanics, particularly with regards to skill usage and selection

Right back at ya, man. You clearly have not even tried this yet and if you have you definitely sucked at it due to your "lack of knowledge when it come to game mechanics." If you knew how to play it, you would realize that it works and its benefits.

I'm done. The build speaks for itself. If you all can't figure it out, that is your problem.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 29, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeknowsmo

As an aside: I don't buy into any kind of doctrine regarding GW such as "Elite must be from your primary" or some other such bunkum as long as a build works. Touch rangers and Fast Cast Mes/Eles, to name a few, long ago laid rest to these so-called "rules."

Don't forget monks with offering of blood or mantra of recall! Regardless, those builds you mentioned are using the best elite energy management they can find, and are generally considered "gimmicks". Sure, they may work, but are they optimized for real play? Additionally, I don't think there was ever a 'rule' put in place, nor did I imply there was one. I'm just trying as hard as I can to tell everyone the build sucks, and the reasoning why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

I have use Grenth's Balance on my axe warrior since I made him in groups and for solo farming. Certainly there are otehr viable builds and perhaps better ones but that is what I like. I don't think you can claim that it is ONLY for solo farm. It's a good skill for tanking and killing bosses quick. Period. It works BETTER on a Warrior than a necro primary due to the higher base HP. It was a skill that was practically MADE to be used on a secondary for a Warrior.

Actually, they have the same base HP, and will hit the same hp if you use a similar equipment setup and insignia choice, and of course runing. Of course, grenth's balance will work on any character, since it's unlinked, so you don't have to waste over a hundred attribute points to get there.

And yes, it's only for solo farming. For a team build cleave or dragon slash are far more optimized, unless your tanking, in which case, the team fails for using a tank (except for DoA, where it is kind of needed).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

My point is that saying you shouldn't use an elite simply because it is from your secondary class, is a logical fallacy.

Didn't say it was, of course then again, it actually has to optimize the character in order for it to be worth a party slot. I'd rather have a cruel spear paragon with some command skills, though.

I'm sorry you don't like to hear that your build isn't that good, but if you want carebear posts go to GWO, they're far more forgiving because the playerbase that reads there isn't playing the same game a lot of people here are.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 29, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I'm just trying as hard as I can to tell everyone the build sucks, and the reasoning why.

Actually, none of your reasons hold up.

Is the build viable? Has it been tested and run effectively by multiple players? Yes indeed!

Does it have energy problems? Under some conditions, but not mostly.

Can a searing flames ele Hero accomplish the same thing, i.e., spread fire around to maximize prot from ToF? Absolutely NOT!!!

What's better 5s of Incoming every 20s or 12-15s of the same effect (50% dmg reduction) using ToF and SF? The latter, of course.

You do not seem to have tested the build. You do not cite specifically what issues one faces while running the build and how it's therefore not feasible. Yet you are "trying as hard as you can tell everyone the build sucks, and the reasoning why."

Good job on the first part - telling everyone the build sucks. The second part is lacking. The "reasoning why" the build sucks does not make a cogent case at all.

First you say, that the elite is from another prof and you have a problem with that. However, later you say that other builds that do it work. Although you call a Boon Prot a "gimmick" build and question whether it's optimized for real play???? U can't be serious!

Your next post says, you understand the concept but the build still sucks. You provide no reason why.

Then you say why not bring along a SF ele Hero or two. Sure, you probably would want an SF ele or two but the SF ele does not spread burning but rather stays focused on one group/target. The SF/ToF para's job is to spread burning. While you get your heroes/henchies to target the healer, you can use SF on other groups (ele, barrager, derv, whatever...) to reduce their dmg.

So, we hear you loud and clear on the first part - you sincerely believe the build sucks. However, why exactly does the build suck? Does it not do what it says it should? Does it have energy problems? Or is it simply violating some cherished belief of yours that a paragon must have a shield rather than a flame artifact as an offhand or that elites must come from your primary?

Sure, you've convinced yourself. But some real reasons would help convince the rest of us.

clawofcrimson · Jan 29, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

If it is intended for pve then the build works just fine.... it provides a good balance of protection and damage in one unit... and there is nothing wrong with that... it may even work in AB... granted...it would be optimal with SF ele... but truthfully you dont always have that option...

Thom Bangalter · Jan 29, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

why would you not just run anthem of flame and burning refrain or blazing finale and a physical heavy team, freeing up a non-primary elite and 97 attribute points? For party wide protection, why not stand your ground, or perhaps defensive anthem? Angelic bond is pretty darn good too. These skills embody the same idea, synergize well with both the skills on your bar and your teammates, and allows you to both rune for them and adjust your secondary for something else if desired, in addition to being in attribute lines you'd be putting points into anyway.

I mean, if you're playing with a crappy pug it works, but why would you want to build around your team being terrible by bringing a slightly less terrible build yourself?

clawofcrimson · Jan 29, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

-.- because its pve.....and he wants to.....

you could run around with the bannana scythe in pve and do fine....

like I said... its moderate damage and protection combined.... if thats your goal then it works fine....

and since when are PUG anything but moderate to lousy?

defensive anthem... short defense....long recharge
angelic bond...good damage reduction but not to the whole party.... unless spammed with soneflesh
stand your ground...good... but more armour and 50% less damage are two different animals

while these are very good skills....they still dont provide consentrated defense..for an extended period....as well as damage.....

and by the way... if you think e/mo builds with healing skills are useless then you should observe gvg more....

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:E...f_Magic_Smiter

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:E...id_Flag_Runner

JoeKnowMo · Jan 30, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

why would you not just run anthem of flame and burning refrain or blazing finale and a physical heavy team, freeing up a non-primary elite and 97 attribute points?

Because this still does not address how the fire will be spread around to multiple groups. While your physical heavy team is going after the healer first, I'm setting other groups on fire. This can't be done w/o SF on my bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

For party wide protection, why not stand your ground, or perhaps defensive anthem? Angelic bond is pretty darn good too. These skills embody the same idea, synergize well with both the skills on your bar and your teammates, and allows you to both rune for them and adjust your secondary for something else if desired, in addition to being in attribute lines you'd be putting points into anyway.

Defensive Anthem is a crappy elite. Aegis does the same thing and is not elite.

Angelic Bond is good only if you invest in Earth Magic (attribute level of 10-12 minimum) and use Stoneflesh Aura.

I have run both the builds you suggest (a while ago) and they're useful in certain areas, but the SF/ToF para build is way way better than those. Why run those subpar builds when you have a much more effective one?

@Claw: You will run into energy problems in pvp if you don't have enough allies around you to gain energy from shouts. So this build is primarily pve.

Govtmorgue · Jan 30, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Thom, you keep posting that the build sucks, and then you turn around and ask why we wouldn't use another skills set with a primary elite, so I'll do you favor and answer why.

Command

Incoming - With 14 in command, it still only lasts 5 seconds, with a 20 second recharge. Compare it to SF/ToF build which provides damage reduction of the same amount for a longer period of time due to the length of burning on foes. You're SPREADING the fire, NOT STAYING ON THE SAME TARGET TO DEAL THE EXTRA DAMAGE. (Capped it to clarify that point as it's for the explanation of all the other elites I'll post)

Anthem of Guidance - 1 attack is unblockable/evadeable within the next 10 seconds. Great for a spike, but has no defense for the team so obviously you wouldn't want it as it doesn't deal with what this threads been discussing.

Crippling Anthem - Since when does it matter in PvE since most enemies won't kite. Doesn't fall in this threads discussion at all.

Leadership

Angelic Bond - Great, 1/2 the damage is hitting you, which means somewhere someone's taking full damage. Refer to explanation under Incoming!

Anthem of Fury - Great for if your wanting adrenalin, which the build doesn't greatly need the help on.

Defensive Anthem - Ends when a person uses AN ATTACK SKILL. Explanation ceased there.

Focused Anger - More adrenaline, explanation ceased there.

Soldier's Fury - More adrenaline, explanation ceased there.

Motivation

"It's Just a Flesh Wound" - You get Deep Wound, single party member loses conditions, no use in this build/thread.

"The Power is Yours" - -10 energy degen for 10 seconds. Holy crap why would anyone ever want that. (Unless maybe a all adrenaline build)

Song of Purification - 1 to 3 skills used next take of a condition. Not bad, but not what this thread is discussing, i.e. damage reduction.

Song of Restoration - Next skill gives some life back. If you're on a team without a monk, your gonna die most likely anyways.

Spear

None provide damage reduction obviously, so not discussing them.

Unlinked
Cautery Signet - Set's you on fire while removing party conditions. Discussion ended there.

Now, I know I posted some you didn't ask about Thom, but this way you can quit asking about the viability of those skills when it concerns this build. This build is logically the best way to provide prolonged damage reduction of up to 53%. Sure, I agree, if you find a Searing Flames ele then switch builds, or even better, roll with this one because more burning foes = more damage reduction. When you provide hard facts as to why"this build sucks" and no one should use it, by all means post the reasons why. As of yet, you haven't stated anything other than loose phrases of "it sucks". Why does it suck? Have you personally even tried it? If not go to some other thread and leave this one as you have no room at all to even speak. Go back through the posts, look at how much POSITIVE reinforcement the build has been given, as compared to you saying it sucks.