Curse

Mad5cout · Jan 21, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

This was discussed in the wildfire build thread but it needs its own discussion, explanation, and analysis. The build has also been refined since then.

Maxed Fire Mastery
Maxed Leadership (with Major Rune - no difference in effect with superior)
Rest in Motivation (no rune needed here)
a Superior Spear Mastery Rune and helm would help in terms of gaining adrenaline faster.

[skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Glowing Signet[/skill][skill]"They're on Fire!"[/skill][skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Energizing Chorus[/skill][skill]"Never Give Up!"[/skill]and a res signet.

Okay, before everyone opens their yap about the lack of energy a paragon has and the skill selection, read this explanation of how it works.

You cast Fire Attunement just as you would for any other SF'er. Then you can go straight into SF, then glowing signet, then They're on Fire, then SF, then glowing gaze, the SF, etc.

Make sure you are attacking during this time (contrary to popular belief, it is possible to attack between casts to gain adrenaline) GFTE and Energizing Chorus Charge slowly but they will get there. If you can cast Energizing Chorus right before They're on Fire. Why are these skills here? First, Energizing Chorus cuts down on energy costs of ToF. Secondly, when these skills finally do charge and are cast, they are free energy. You get about 7 energy from each of these when used.

With this energy economy, I was able to cast SF just as fast if not faster than my SF elementalist. How faster? There are more skills providing you with energy boosts. Often on my SF ele, I must wait for Glowing Gaze or Glowing Signet before my next SF cast. In this build, I rarely wait ever. I can cast as soon as SF is up almost all the time.

BEFORE YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT DAMAGE READ THIS:

Most people say that this is a completely useless build because a real SF can do more damage with the Runes they can wear. Consider this:

SF damage with superior Rune AND pyro eye: 119
SF with maxed and no bonuses: 91
difference: 28

Glowing Gaze with Rune and Eye: 53
Gaze with no Runes or bonuses: 41
difference: 12

These are not all that different. Yes, as the casts stack up the difference becomes exponential and relatively significant. However, consider that the SF elementalist is not adding a 41% damage reduction for your entire party while simulteneously doing significant damage to enemies.

I am not making a value judgement. I would never abandon my SF nuker but I think this is a pretty solid build considering hte significant damage and the party defensive bonus.

crime.mob · Jan 21, 2007, 11:49 PM // 23:49

the addition of searing flames and other elementalist atts to the TOF build (which really did needed help at first... paragons are by no means supposed to axe out their opponents... atleast with a support build with small self healing) was a beautiful idea. Glowing signet is a must for a fire build, and I was suprised that the old TOF build didn't have it.

however the rest of the build could be better... go for the eyes is a HORRIBLE addition (unless you use a spear, otherwise i dont think you tested this build yourself) because this build has NO attack skills, and you will barely have enough adrenaline to chant it (even though it gives you free energy once in a while, its a waste of a skill slot)

Energizing chorus is a questionable addition if you don't have any other shouters, it seems to be there for the same reason as "go for the eyes" (energy).

Anthem of flame is a must if you want your allies to cause fire damage and tank it out too, and it also costs only 1 net energy in RA and TA. You should take out the nonfire/nonuseful skills and add in skills that catch people on fire (such as blazing finale). I always like to have either, signet of synergy or ballad of restoration worked into any of my builds (or both of these skills), as they are better heals than most monk spells. This build could use signet of synergy, because this build has no self heals and that the best defence is always a heal

EDIT: i just read that you were going to put "max fire magic, max leadership, and the rest in motivation. :P you've never made a paragon before b/c you dont have any motivational skills in your build! lol k w/e good idea of adding searing flames, don't want to bash an ele too bad.

Mad5cout · Jan 22, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by crime.mob

the addition of searing flames and other elementalist atts to the TOF build (which really did needed help at first... paragons are by no means supposed to axe out their opponents... atleast with a support build with small self healing) was a beautiful idea. Glowing signet is a must for a fire build, and I was suprised that the old TOF build didn't have it.

however the rest of the build could be better... go for the eyes is a HORRIBLE addition (unless you use a spear, otherwise i dont think you tested this build yourself) because this build has NO attack skills, and you will barely have enough adrenaline to chant it (even though it gives you free energy once in a while, its a waste of a skill slot)

Energizing chorus is a questionable addition if you don't have any other shouters, it seems to be there for the same reason as "go for the eyes" (energy).

Anthem of flame is a must if you want your allies to cause fire damage and tank it out too, and it also costs only 1 net energy in RA and TA. You should take out the nonfire/nonuseful skills and add in skills that catch people on fire (such as blazing finale). I always like to have either, signet of synergy or ballad of restoration worked into any of my builds (or both of these skills), as they are better heals than most monk spells. This build could use signet of synergy, because this build has no self heals and that the best defence is always a heal

EDIT: i just read that you were going to put "max fire magic, max leadership, and the rest in motivation. :P you've never made a paragon before b/c you dont have any motivational skills in your build! lol k w/e good idea of adding searing flames, don't want to bash an ele too bad.

actually, I have built MANY paragon builds before. You have not read through the reason for the skills. YES, there are no attack skills, they would merely be a waste of energy or a pointless use of adrenaline when the point of the build is to simultenously do massive damage with Searing Flames. In fact, the damage done by any of the spear chuckers I've seen in the directory pales in comparison to what this build dishes out.

Energizing Chorus is a motivation skill. The rest is put in motivation to help boost this skill. The higher your motivation the more energy it takes off your ToF cast. If done correctly, Energizing Chorus gives you 7 energy and then takes 6-7 off your ToF cast.

Anthem of Flame would be pointless as Searing Flames makes everything in the entire area on fire and is longer burning time. Anthem only makes the target attacked burn. Even blazing finale only makes adjacent targets burn. SF makes all area enemies near target burn.

The reason those skills are not used is because they take energy rather than provide it which is necessary to be able to cast Searing Flames as much as possible (which is more effective than both those skills put together in terms of creating burning to go with the ToF buff).

BTW, GFTE still works on your spear attack as you don't need to use a skill for it to work and it still works on the rest of the party, too.

So, what you've done is taken out to skills that give you 7 free energy, makes FoT cost 6-7 less to cast, and gives a moderate chance for the entire party to critical strike. Then you've replaced these with skills with skills that cost way too much energy for the character to continue to support constant SF casts and that provide no extra benefit beyond the skills already in place.

GG. Read the entire build, FTW.

Zinger314 · Jan 22, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Uh. 30 Energy Max, and 2 Energy Regeneration? No amount of Energy management in the woold could allow you to spam a 15 Energy spell with those conditions.

Plus, your Searing Flames will only burn for 4 seconds (with the test patch nerf), making it trivial. Just use the ToF; it's more practical.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 22, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: You're elite is searing flames. This makes me want to type

Stick to the spears, imo.

Govtmorgue · Jan 22, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Mad, I run a SF/ToF Hybrid all the time with my Para, but unfortunately, these guys here don't understand the concept, or how to work it. All you'll get from 98% of the folks here at guildwars is a "You suck" in general because OMG you picked a elite from a non-paragon build line. The unfortunate thing is, most of the time they haven't even actually fully tested it...most likely they die on the first mob and say "Oh no's that's such a newb skill set...because I died once." While your build isn't for the meta game experience, it's damned good for a casual player, or even a player that wants to add a damager/damager reduction buffer to the team...and this is talking about the "nerf" to SF. I'll say one thing. Not once, EVER, have I run my SF paragon with a team and gotten a complaint...and this was before you're tweaking and even my tweaking of the original build.

crime.mob · Jan 23, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

ya i took your build out a few more rounds this time, and found that you really do need the extra energy from the adrenal skills... or ANY skills for that matter b/c this REALLY drains the paragons pathetic 30 base energy and you're screwed if you miss your SF and have no energy skills after you're drained out. any energy to fund SF is really nice, and adrenal is one way to go.

Though in the end i think the build is risky b/c a couple of fails of glowing signet or a miss of SF can land you energy-less really fast; Though your idea isn't bad, and the build is workable.
I'll stay on your train of thought and use mind burn instead of SF, b/c of its low energy costs, and use chants such as blazing finale to get the "everyone's on fire" effect. (though mind burn would probably only work on non-casters because one requirement for people to catch on fire is for you to have more energy than them)

Mad5cout · Jan 23, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Uh. 30 Energy Max, and 2 Energy Regeneration? No amount of Energy management in the woold could allow you to spam a 15 Energy spell with those conditions.

Plus, your Searing Flames will only burn for 4 seconds (with the test patch nerf), making it trivial. Just use the ToF; it's more practical.

Obviously you haven't tested this. As I said before, I can actually cast SF faster with this build than a true ELE.

If you believe that paragons do not have the energy management to cast SF over and over, then you are seriously underestimating what they can do. Let's go over the math shall we? I use an attument rune which give me +2 energy and arguably you could also put some Insignias with bonuses to energy too but they are not needed I assure you.

Here is the cast sequence start with 32 energy and only +2 energy regen (per 3 seconds) or +1 every 1.5 seconds

All casting costs are figured with the fire attunement bonus for fire skills and Leadership bonus for an 8 person party for shout/chants. The above regeneration is automatically calculated into the energy total based on casting times and how many seconds have past.

Cast Fire attunement -10 energy (total = 23) remember +1 regen has occurred
Cast Searing Flames -10 (total = 14) +1 regen
Cast Glowing Gaze -3 +7 (total = 18)
Cast They're on Fire -3 (total = 15) instant cast
wait 1 second for SF to recharge (total = 16) +1 regen
Cast Searing Flames -10 (total = 6)
Cast Glowing Signet +14 (total = 21) +1 regen
approximately six seconds have passed
wait 2 seconds for SF to recharge (total = 22) +1 regen
Cast Searing Flames -10 (total = 13) +1 regen
Cast Glowing Gaze -3 +7 (total = 14)
[I]wait 1 second for SF to recharge (total = 15) +1 regen
--->>>Also by this time GFTE and Energizing Chorus have charged as you are attacking during this time as your skills are recharging. YES, I TESTED THIS MULTIPLE TIMES AND FOUND IT TO BE CONSISTENT.
Cast Go For The Eyes +7 (total = 22) save energizing chorus for when ToF has recharged
Cast Searing Flames -10 (total = 13) +1 regen
approximately twelve seconds have passed
Cast Glowing Gaze -3 +7 (total = 17)
Cast Energizing Chorus +7 (total = 25) +1 regen (this is early enough to give a boost of needed energy and late enough to effect your next TOF cast)

need I go on?

The energy works, if you think about your cast order rather than mash buttons. The bottom line is this: With full leadership, you NEVER run out of energy with paragon builds that have a balance of energy skills and full party adrenaline based shouts... NEVER.

BTW, I see that now even without the runes in and max leadership, ToF now does 44% damage reduction which is higher than the wiki description but not listed in the update changes... wierd. That means with the rune, we are coming really close to 50% damage redux.

Mad5cout · Jan 23, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

DISCLAIMER: Quickening Zephyr really screws this guy over. The SF casts are reduced and it is hard to keep the burning up as desired.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 23, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Govtmorgue

Mad, I run a SF/ToF Hybrid all the time with my Para, but unfortunately, these guys here don't understand the concept, or how to work it. All you'll get from 98% of the folks here at guildwars is a "You suck" in general because OMG you picked a elite from a non-paragon build line. The unfortunate thing is, most of the time they haven't even actually fully tested it...most likely they die on the first mob and say "Oh no's that's such a newb skill set...because I died once." While your build isn't for the meta game experience, it's damned good for a casual player, or even a player that wants to add a damager/damager reduction buffer to the team...and this is talking about the "nerf" to SF. I'll say one thing. Not once, EVER, have I run my SF paragon with a team and gotten a complaint...and this was before you're tweaking and even my tweaking of the original build.

No, I understand the concept, It's just a bad build.

Arrows[PURE] · Jan 23, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I think this build is really gd, the only thing I can see is that quite alot of enemies have enchant removal. I've never actually tried this but without fire attunement would it still work???

Mad5cout · Jan 24, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrows[PURE]

I think this build is really gd, the only thing I can see is that quite alot of enemies have enchant removal. I've never actually tried this but without fire attunement would it still work???

I haven;t had much trouble with enchant removals. But the buidl would still work, you just wouldn;t be able to cast SF quite as fast. This same problem would occur in a Ele primary though. Both builds rely on the attunement to spam continuously. However, a real SF would have to wait for their energy to recharge while the paragon would simply hurl spears and quickly charge up the adrenaline skills and then regain energy instantly. I'll give you a hint which is faster...

Mad5cout · Jan 24, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

No, I understand the concept, It's just a bad build.

Have you actually tried it?

Tell me how an average area damage of 273 and extra spike damage of 53 on your target per every 10 seconds is bad? Tell me how stacking a 44% damage reduction for your entire party on top of that is bad?

I'm having a real hard time figuring out how that is bad...

Govtmorgue · Jan 24, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

a Superior Spear Mastery Rune and helm would help in terms of gaining adrenaline faster.

Have you actually tried it?

Tell me how an average area damage of 273 and extra spike damage of 53 on your target per every 10 seconds is bad? Tell me how stacking a 44% damage reduction for your entire party on top of that is bad?

I'm having a real hard time figuring out how that is bad...

I would like to state that there is no need for the Spear Mastery Runes or Helm, as that doesn't effect your adrenalin gain (or at least no where have I found that to be true, it's based on strikes that build up and aren't gained due to extra attributes...i.e. you could use a bow and build the same amount of adrenalin as if you were using a spear with equal attribute points), however a Furious spear or ranged weapon would indeed help in the adrenalin gain. The reason I say this is because it cuts down on your health loss from having a Major and Superior rune, and this way you can put a Superior rune in leadership and wear the Leadership head piece, allowing for a 53% damage reduction, or you could lower it to 14 and add more points into Command, allowing for a larger chance to critical from GFTE!, splitting the points to this (which would make any casting of Never Give Up free):

12 Fire Magic
6 Command (GFTE! is now at 48% Chance to crit)
6 Motivation (Energizing Chorus reduces next Shout by 5 points, used before NGU allows free shout + massive energy spike)
14 Leadership (Superior Rune & Headpiece +1) (47% Damage Reduction from ToF and a net gain of 14 from Glowing Signet)

Using those attribute points you make the maximum gain from energy, and very little loss due to shouting ToF (as all your shouts have now become free basically)

Also, with Max Leadership and a Major Leadership Rune (14 Leadership), you have continually stated that it's a 44% damage reduction, however it's actually 47%. If you were at 12 Leadership that would be 44%. And at the max of 16 Leadership it's a 53% damage reduction. You like to state numbers, so I'm giving you a hand and giving exacts.

ss1986v2 · Jan 24, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

ok, i tooled around with this for about 30 minutes tonight. the thing is i couldnt get it to work with your set up. too little base energy to keep the chain up fast enough to match a SF ele. i tweaked a few things and it ran much smoother. with full radiant armor, plus a wand/offhand combination, you can get your total energy over 50. then the build worked fine. the biggest issue is if any part of the chain is disrupted (interrupted, attunement stripped, missing a GG or a G sig, energy denial) you kinda become dead in the water for a bit while you regen enough energy to start up again. two things though:

1)why run this over a ToF paragon and a SF elementalist? it works well enough on its own, but a ToF paragon + a SF elementalist in the party will do the same thing, but with much higher dmg, longer burning, and more utility (with no fire magic, the ToF paragon can bring more skills, plus the SF ele gets to bring liquid flame, fireball, MoR, ect...).

2) dont think this will work after the skill update. the lack of burning duration plus the slower recharge of GG will make it much harder to maintain dmg and the dmg reduction of ToF while keeping energy up. with only a 4 second burning, you would probably be better off just running the a ToF build, which gives similar burning durations with a bit more utility.

Mad5cout · Jan 24, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

to answer the last few posts. I think I brought up a few posts ago when I said the 44% I said that it was maxed with no runes and mentioned that with the rune it would be close to 50%. I don't personally have a superior leadership rune because me main build is a Envy/GFTE spammer.

Govt., The point distribution you gave seems pretty cool and might work better but read the below explanation.

To address issues in both your posts, The reason I put some into spear mastery is that you have to actually be hitting targets when in order to build adrenaline. If your spear mastery is at 0, you miss a lot, especially in the torment. This can be especially detrimental to your energy gain as you don;t gain adrenaline as fast (this is how spear mastery affects adrenal gain). ss1986, If you did not have anything in spear mastery or you forgot to continue to cycle through targets and attack with your spear as well as casting, then you would be dead in the water.

In the end, adrenal gain is more important than the energy you get from the Energizing chorus cast. That is an adrenal skill that simply has synergistic qualities to the rest of the build.

After seeing Govt's attribute distribution. I think I would end up going taking some from motivation and putting it into spear. but using his superior rune and headpiece in leadership idea.

BTW, look at the cast sequence I posted if you are having a hard time with energy. I have played this on my paragon and his rune set up is all wrong and I still have enough energy to keep casting. He only has a minor leadership rune, attunement, and a superior in command and NO radiant insignias and he can spam it with no problems.

Lastly, to talk about why not just bring a ToF and SF ele. As you mentioned SF burning time is going down. As with all paragon builds, you have to modify what you are using based on your party. This is a build that I would want to run with at least one more SF in the party (paragon or ele), so that you could piggy back on each other. Although, even with the shorter burn time and the new recharge for GG, it is not necessary. I have tested this with the skill modifications already and it still works.

ss1986v2 · Jan 24, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad5cout

To address issues in both your posts, The reason I put some into spear mastery is that you have to actually be hitting targets when in order to build adrenaline. If your spear mastery is at 0, you miss a lot, especially in the torment. This can be especially detrimental to your energy gain as you don;t gain adrenaline as fast (this is how spear mastery affects adrenal gain). ss1986, If you did not have anything in spear mastery or you forgot to continue to cycle through targets and attack with your spear as well as casting, then you would be dead in the water.

your spear mastery level affects neither your hit/miss rate or the amount of adrenaline gained per strike.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Adrenaline
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Spear_Mastery

thought id just correct that bit of misinformation.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 24, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

This build has been posted twice before about 2 months ago:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10076524
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10075533

It worked fine then and it works fine now. If the new patch reduces SF burn duration that may change.

Regarding equipment: A fire offhand is essential. You won't be getting the full benefit from a shield anyway.
A +5e Furious Spear of enchanting is ideal as your attack weapon. The faster attack rate compared to a wand helps build adrenaline up faster for shouts. The occasional bonus adrenaline from the furious mod helps too.

This way you start out at 47e (w/o radiant insignias) instead of 30e.

Switch out Never Give Up for Anthem of Flame.

To the sceptics: Try running this build before you dismiss it.

clawofcrimson · Jan 24, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

its not so bad when you want to concentrate you're burning on enemies...

i wouldnt mind having a SF para in pve....but then again..what doesnt work in pve?

i have been running my warrior with heroes with something like this:

general: tof tank
zhed: SF nuker with mark of rodgort.(hope the buff sticks)
my warrior: conjure flame, hundred blades, inferno

so many flames...

Mad5cout · Jan 25, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

your spear mastery level affects neither your hit/miss rate or the amount of adrenaline gained per strike.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Adrenaline
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Spear_Mastery

thought id just correct that bit of misinformation.

Well, you learn something new everyday!! Thanks for the info.

In this case, go with Govt's attribute numbers and I would also switch to a bow with a faster RoF. Good Ideas. You got me rethinking my GFTE/Envy Paragon set up, too.