Curse

clawofcrimson · May 18, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smile Like Umean It

No, he said all primaries and secondaries. Being a warrior doesn't mean crap, when it would be the paragon secondary that counts.

hmmm ... I see... I guess I must have misread.

Xeeron · May 18, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

The original poster is on the right way: The only way to make Paragons better in PvE without making them too good in PvP is by reducing the insane synergies of shouts/chants/echos.

- Xeeron

Conquering Lion · May 18, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Making paragon shouts affect only players who are non-paragon is the worst idea I've heard thus far. This post is a joke, right?

Luna Star · May 18, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

The problem is most don't understand the skills or how it works, I personally love paragons, they are my favorite profession, they are powerful, too powerful tbh.
The problem is that most players need to see how they work as they are very useful.

Skuld · May 18, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Paragons need nerfing for EoTN.

lellyville · May 18, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

it's so sad seeing your fav profession getting nerfed no stop, why don't they just nerf some other profession.

renin · May 20, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Paragons are just plainly misunderstood.

Threll · May 22, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I realize this isn't exactly a "happening" post, but I figured I would add my 2 cents before it got even older.

Deafness: Goes against the premise of conditions--they are a negative modifier put on you by an enemy, or as an added cost to activate some spell/skill (Barbed Signet = Bleeding, for instance). If you had a condition trigger simply based on the number of shouts you have affecting you, it would be contradictory. Why not have something like that for Enchantments then, too?

Shouts only affecting non-Paragons: This is ridiculous. Think of the PvE player. Paragons can be wonderful soloers with the right gear and build. Why rob them of that opportunity completely? I suppose it would make sense in the context of the game's reality if the shout did not affect the person doing the shouting, but that is still incredibly unfair to PvErs.

Lower Spear dmg: I think dropping their Spear damage is viable.

Nerf shouts: I also think that nerfing the duration or the power of some of their buffs is a good idea... but not the way that ANet has been doing so far. I cried when they nerfed "Incoming!" beyond all recognition. Now it lasts 2 seconds! 2 SECONDS! Compare that to Aegis (though their cast times and costs are, sadly, not comparable) and you will throw up in your mouth. I know that "Incoming!" reduces damage taken, not increasing your chance to block as Aegis does... but just think about them loosely. It also seems that ANet, rather than deal with any of the serious issues, has just limited the overpowered shouts to no longer affect minions/pets.

Cross-team Shout locking: Someone also said something about if a Paragon uses a shout, any other Paragon with that shout on their bar that is affected should have that skill locked out for a period of time. Come on now... that is just wrong. I'm sure that would work fantastic in RA when you get stuck with some no-brainer who spams the Shout you would ordinarily only use on a situational basis, so that it's locked when you need it most.

I say... drop Spear DPS and balance Shouts power/cost rather than their affected targets. Maybe their AL is something to consider... but there are several char classes with ridiculous AL for their function that would have to be considered as well. Best to leave that one alone.

Mekkakat · May 23, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

er.. whats going on here??

claw, i thought you liked paragons like me, and this thread is seemingly a flame about how they need nerfed/balanced down. the pve for paragons, other than being misunderstood like hell, is more than fine. my para was a dps king and a boss killer to boot, and in pvp, its unmoatched dps from afar, and yet while being pretty powerful in huge groups, an all paragon team is still weaker than say an all nec bloodspike ect.

this thread went downhill fast, and while i can see nerfing in the future for this poor, yet still awesome class, people asking for a nerf need to just stop playing the game. we have enough whiners, and the game is getting dead as is, lets not make it stale with "nerf this, buff that" nonsense. SR and HvH/ATs need fixed first blah blah blah

clawofcrimson · May 23, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

I do love the class. That's why I would like to see it succeed.

My objective is not to nerf (or buff) the class but to fix the problem that the class faces: It is receiving hate from both aspects of the game.

~While you (and me and few others) love the paragon in pve. I still experience the "OMG NERFED CLASS" out there and people seem to have a low opinion of the class in general pve. (see this poll: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...147813&page=10 )

~In pvp the class is also hated ...but for the opposite reason.

I just want to see more success for this class...because I love it, and discuss the possibilities/options to get it there.

BTW... i am not really advocating any change (besides wanting to wear pants and helmet on my para), I just wanted to discuss why the class got the way it did...and if there are any options to get it back to where it truly belongs.

I am sick of seeing posts like this from pve'ers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lellyville

it's so sad seeing your fav profession getting nerfed no stop, why don't they just nerf some other profession

..and post like this from the pvp'ers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

I hate playing against them. A 106 AL character that pumps out unremovable party-wide buffs while doing damage comparable to warrior's auto-attacks is not balanced. Moreover, it's not fun. Both for the paragon player and the entire opposing team.

Remove from the game plx.

King's Spectre · May 23, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Threll

Shouts only affecting non-Paragons: This is ridiculous. Think of the PvE player. Paragons can be wonderful soloers with the right gear and build. Why rob them of that opportunity completely?

Heheh I've farmed ice imps and even managed to kill the odd Aatxe, but I'm not sure I'd use the terms "wonderful", "soloer", and "paragon" is the same sentence!

Making a solo build seems to be an exercise in working *around* all the gimps that paras have to solo play.

On the other hand, it's great fun to run out of the zone with a pug carrying an icy dragon sword. Someone will often say "dude, nice sword! what do you use to farm them?" Then you get to reply: "Paragon, duuh!"

I think without changing a thing, the paragon class would be more popular in PvE if you could see the damage numbers flying from GftE and see the healing numbers from motivation shouts. Minion mancers, spirit spammers, and curse necros all get to see the damage numbers flying around the screen. Paras could really use that moral boost.

Beyond that, I'd say nerf the party wide buffs - maybe even make them all require targeting. Having a way to default cast on a party member while continuing to target enemies would be wonderful. A few more selfish skills would be nice too.

Mekkakat · May 23, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

i think that the paragon has become the ulitimate team/single player utility king. he's a ranged warrior with buffs and boost to drive opposition wild, and while not having the greatest solo meta, they have some neat little tricks to exploit that make the pve experience super fun imo. again, claw would vouch for me, and so would skuld, they're overpowered in numbers, but i think maybe toning the skills down, rather than hinder their own use of the skills, would be a more feasible solution, as this would allow the entire team, as intended, to use the ability/utility, while not making the game broken. dont forget though, it takes the WHOLE team for them to work so well, so one well of silence.. ow.. not to mention, i was guesting the other day for a guild, we ran paraway, and got STOMPED by a bloodspike team that just went nuts from start to finish.. everything has a weakness :P.

i loved playing my para in all realms. pve was a breeze, i always had groups, got compliments nonstop for my armor (not all of em have nipples ect, just one set lol. ) and people always thanked me for my buffs whether it was stand your ground, mending refrain, or just something simple like GftEs and Anthem of Flame. in pvp, i dont really ta/hvh (who does? lolz)/ or AB with my para, but i GvG/HA/RA with him a ton, and he quickly, like the mesmer, becomes one of the pivoting points in the battle, that usually ends up turning the tide for our favor.

thats just my take/experience/opinions of course, and i'll always vouch for this sweet, yet misunderstood class, just like the mesmer and the assassin!!! go go go FLAME ON! [skill]burning refrain[/skill]

pingu666 · May 23, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

my favourite thing about the paragon is the partywide buffs. spaming single target buffs on others is boring :/

but it was nice to hear guildies on comms go wtf! thats not my staff?! and woooow look at my hammer

and then cackle with glee @ splinter weapon pwnage

having stuff thatll effect pets and minions would be nice too. maybe only a slight buff...

wetsparks · May 23, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

i loved playing my para in all realms. pve was a breeze, i always had groups, got compliments nonstop for my armor (not all of em have nipples ect, just one set lol. ) and people always thanked me for my buffs whether it was stand your ground, mending refrain, or just something simple like GftEs and Anthem of Flame.

QFT
Whenever I go with a group with my paragon the frontline (warrior/assassin/dervish) always says something along the line of, "Wow I just did x damage! Thats so awesome!" (From GftE!) and then there is the, "Dude, these enemies are so easy when they are on fire for x seconds. They dont stand a chance." (From Anthom of Flame).
Then, on harder missions, I like to bring [skill]ballad of restoration[/skill] so that whenever one of the soft targets on my team gets hit he is healed for like 55 life.

lorinton · May 24, 2007, 02:07 AM // 02:07

I don't think the problem with lemmings believing what they want to believe rather than what's true can be fixed. A friend of a friend of a friend said that paragons suck in PvE and so they suck... This is a perception problem, no class changes are needed to "fix" the paragon in PvE. It is a fine, very capable PvE class, albeit somewhat two dimensional. The only change I'd like to see in this regard is the ability to use a greater variety of skills. Too many paragon skills are too situational or simply not well suited for use in many PvE encounters.

The same two dimensional class limitation appears to apply in PvP, although with different skills. Observe mode shows little variety in the skills used by lone paragons. Teams with multiple paragons do make use of a much greater variety of skills. The chant and shout mechanic changes proposed would kill that variety as well as the viability of a multiple paragon group. Better I think is to clearly define which shouts or chants are a problem and why, then work on specific solutions. Breaking many skills to fix a few isn't a good plan!

From what I've seen in observe mode, paragon skills aren't as big a problem as necromancers are, when used by multiple players of the same profession. With that perspective, something much smaller to the chant and shout mechanic is called for. If the objective is to prevent builds using a single profession, a much simpler approach is available at the player invite function.

I'm not willing to give up spear DPS. The motivation line is good when used with a high motivation attribute level. Spear DPS suffers some though as leadership can't be dropped as low as it can with a spear and command build so spear mastery is lower and chants greatly reduce the number of spear thrown. There may be cause for a poor perception of the motivation paragon if he isn't also dealing ranged damage. Both are needed in my opinion to be a truly productive member of a party.

Seeing the effects of GftE and the like would be nice but for countering the flawed perception problem but it may not help. How many naysayers actually play a paragon enough to become convinced through that kind of empirical evidence? It'd probably be better if other players saw how the paragon helped them. We could quickly become overwhelmed with data if that were done for all classes.

Mekkakat · May 24, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

lorington's right, i cant give up my spear power at all, im hooked to it. if anything, the shouts ect, while maybe being toned down, are still stoppable, and far less powerful than a super powered bloodspike or euro-hyper-hex. hex removal is just totally unsatisfactory for the crazy mega-hexes necros can put out.. some of their stuff puts us mesmers to shame.. and imo, that's uncalled for.

semantic · May 24, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

90% of the Paragon's image problem is the armor. I can back that up.

To wit: over on another board there's a long topic like this one, proposing many changes to fix the class. One 'fix' that is a quite common suggestion is lowering the AL of the class to somewhere around 70ish, "because 80 base and 106 effective is too high for a support class". In developing this argument, one poster said something to the effect of:

"As it is now, the Paragon is a ranged Warrior. It was never meant to be so, and is therefore broken."

Now, the only reason I can think of that someone could possibly MISS the fact that, from its conception, the Paragon was designed to be exactly that - a ranged Warrior - is the decorative armor.

Lorinton brings up a good point with the 2-dimensionality of the class. It is the only truly 2D class, since it was an attempt to mix equal parts of 2 different 'colors'. But, rather than increasing the flexibility of the skillset, what that does is actually constrain the class somewhat. Everything available to the class must conform to one of the existing sets (Monk and War), but nothing available to it can strictly exceed the existing classes, since they are pure. So you get a ranged Paladin - not quite as good as a tank, nowhere near as good as a monk, etc. From the outset, it's something that you're basically going to say: "meh, I can take it or leave it".

What would the class have been like if it had mixed Warrior and Necro? How freaking popular do you think that would have been? Spikey armour of death, big, hideous spears. Instead of party defensive buffs, the class uses shouts that negatively affect foes in the area. AoE saccing from all party members in the area to generate huge attack or energy increases. Now that would have been exciting to a lot of people.

Anyway. Yeah, it's the armor.

----------
EDIT
After thinking about it some more, this is what I propose as a change to the Paragon for EotN (bear in mind I like the Paragon, and don't see any need for change, but if we're going to change it let's make it interesing at least).

Kormir, out of pride and lack of experience as a new god, decides to confront The Great Destroyer on her own. In the conflict, she is broken and corrupted by this ancient power, and becomes one of his servants in an event which is known simply as The Fall. Dwayna, who had warned Kormir against this action from the beginning, turns her back on Paragons forever, fearing that they are all possessed of the same kind of pride that led to Kormir's Fall. The combination of Kormir's Fall and Dwayna's abandonment turns all Paragons into shadows of their former selves, bereft of the strength derived from their state of grace, and corrupted by Kormir's attempt to exert her will above the will of the other gods.

Balthazar is furious with Dwayna for abandoning the Paragons, for he admired Kormir's bravery. The rift between the two gods threatens to undo Creation. Seeing the need to restore balance, Grenth adopts the former Paragons as his own servants. From then on they are known as The Fallen.

So this would play out like: at the beginning of EotN, there is a big cataclysm, after which all EotN Paragons lose access to the Motivation line. Also, many other skills are fundamentally altered so that they reflect a much more aggressive basis for the class. "Incoming!" becomes, eh, can't think of a good name (I'd suggest "To the Pain!", but that's already in use), but instead of reducing damage for allies it increases the damage taken by foes within earshot. In general, Paragons get skills that work more like "Fear Me!" and less like "Watch Yourself!".

Then maybe there's a quest for Paragons to become a servant of Grenth, after which they unlock the Deprivation line. All armor for Paragons who migrate to EotN becomes Fallen armor, and maybe they all become visibly scarred as well.

I realize this would break Nightfall as a game entirely, and totally ruin PvP as I have described it. But like I said, if the class is in line for some changes, at least make it interesing.

Threll · May 24, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by semantic

I realize this would break Nightfall as a game entirely, and totally ruin PvP as I have described it. But like I said, if the class is in line for some changes, at least make it interesing.

That right there just blew your whole argument out of the water.

Anyway... about Paragon solers:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/User:Sa...ow_Paratrooper

There are other backups of that build since GWiki wiped their builds section, but that's the one I found.

Maybe this is off topic, but I didn't think so since I was prompted to provide "evidence."

Ensign · May 25, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

The problem with paragons is the same problem with mesmers.

Not so. Paragon is a legitimately powerful profession in PvE. Mesmer is not. The two really aren't comparable.

The problem with Paragons is that their strengths do not align themselves with the traditional MMO playstyle at all. E.G.:

Paragons have great natural armor. This is not important for a traditional PvE build, because everyone knows that only the Tank needs armor. Everyone else's defense is to avoid aggro.

Paragons provide solid party-wide buffs to both (physical) offense and defense. Neither of these is important for a traditional PvE team. Party-wide defense does not matter, because the plan revolves around all of the aggro being on the tank and the party wiping and resetting if that paradim is broken. Similarly, buffs to physical offense do not matter, because there are not physical attackers on the traditional PvE team. Your Warrior is a tank, and your damage dealers are nukers. There is nothing to buff.

Paragons deal great damage to their target with just spear autoattacks. This does not matter to a generic PvE team, because all damage needs to be AoE.

Now, of course, the whole premise of those assumptions is absolutely retarded. But that's basically how it plays out. Unless a character is crazy overpowered, it needs to fit into the Tank/Nuker/Healer trinity for the masses to accept it. Paragons do not, and the reaction is entirely predictable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

They don't have to open their character and stare at 3 gimped attribute lines full of skills that aren't doing much.

Um, yeah we do. Every attribute line in the game is filled with trash that you'd never use. The difference is that a lot of Paragon fans just look at the skills that used to be ridiculous, but aren't playable anymore. When you focus on what isn't there anymore the bad skills stick out. But really, every profession and every line has that problem.

Oh, and how to fix Paragons?

Base armor goes from 80 to 70.
Give the class some elite, adjacent AoE attack for the masses to drool over in GWX.

Peace,
-CxE

Mekkakat · May 25, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Not so. Paragon is a legitimately powerful profession in PvE. Mesmer is not. The two really aren't comparable.

The problem with Paragons is that their strengths do not align themselves with the traditional MMO playstyle at all. E.G.:

Paragons have great natural armor. This is not important for a traditional PvE build, because everyone knows that only the Tank needs armor. Everyone else's defense is to avoid aggro.

Paragons provide solid party-wide buffs to both (physical) offense and defense. Neither of these is important for a traditional PvE team. Party-wide defense does not matter, because the plan revolves around all of the aggro being on the tank and the party wiping and resetting if that paradim is broken. Similarly, buffs to physical offense do not matter, because there are not physical attackers on the traditional PvE team. Your Warrior is a tank, and your damage dealers are nukers. There is nothing to buff.

Paragons deal great damage to their target with just spear autoattacks. This does not matter to a generic PvE team, because all damage needs to be AoE.

Now, of course, the whole premise of those assumptions is absolutely retarded. But that's basically how it plays out. Unless a character is crazy overpowered, it needs to fit into the Tank/Nuker/Healer trinity for the masses to accept it. Paragons do not, and the reaction is entirely predictable.

Um, yeah we do. Every attribute line in the game is filled with trash that you'd never use. The difference is that a lot of Paragon fans just look at the skills that used to be ridiculous, but aren't playable anymore. When you focus on what isn't there anymore the bad skills stick out. But really, every profession and every line has that problem.

Oh, and how to fix Paragons?

Base armor goes from 80 to 70.
Give the class some elite, adjacent AoE attack for the masses to drool over in GWX.

Peace,
-CxE

the only thing i can say about this post is that not everyone falls into the same MMO rhythm. most MMOs have threat, fear, priority, and aggro grabbing abilities, where in GWs, warriors CAN tank, but its more of a trick on the AI than it is actual set game mechanics. to say that you need eles to lay down the AoE, which in your opinion is the main source of damage, i can't really agree there. the whole, tank, 2 eles, 1 mm, 2 monk setup is fine and all, but it takes all the fun, creativity, and balance out of the game. we have really sweet side professions, that all excel at something to a further extent than any other class. i not saying its not good for the damage to be aided by the eles, because obviously they're nice and strong, but not every ele wants to be a fire mage, and not every tank wants to actually stand still and defend himself while doing nothing to make the game enjoyable for himself. in my personal gameplay, i dont like dervs and eles (my opinion), so i rarely ever have them on my team. not that i dont allowthem, just that i dont look for them. i much rather have a team that can focus attack, and utilize powerful, fast, efficient commands to get targets killed, rather than rely on 2 eles to burn everything at once, leave nothing for anyone else to do but watch, take all the credit like they're the best or strongest class, and on top of that, loser all of our drops lol. its a team game, dont leave up to one class to deal the damage like in WoW.. thats just no funzeroonie.

as for the rest of your post, i pretty much agree, other than that paras really dont need anything AoE to make them even more overpowered lol. my idea as to how to fix them:

spears attack speed: 2.20 ATPS. other than that, i think they're fine as is, and they'll always be one of my first picks in PvP