Curse

clawofcrimson · May 17, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Think back when the paragon got our little hopes up as an excellent choice of class, and compare it to now... almost hated universally .....The Paragon needs to see more use.

After the least favourite class thread, (and other interesting discussions) I have been reading up on the opinions of other players on the Paragon Class as a whole. The class, unlike the other classes, suffers from hatred from both aspects of the game (pve vs. pvp), and due to opposite reasons. This is due, in great part, to the implimentation of the class. Will the new skills (if there are any) and armour (if there is any) in GWEN fix the problem?

The Paragon's precarious perdicament: (alliteration FTW)

~The PVE'er hates the 'nerfs' continually effecting the paragon's effectiveness as a 'healing support character' (while most neglect the other great attributes of the paragon) and the general opinion of the class is that it has beed nerfed to uselessness. At the beginning we were enticed by the class as a buffer type class, but after continual nerfing, it is mostly now considered just a ranged attacker(even when blokes like me try to convince otherwise). Any continual nerfing would create a total loss of interest in the pve realm.

~The PvP'er complains that the Paragon is too overpowered, And rightly so, anyone can witness the power of an all paragon team in observe mode and come to the same conclusion. The synergy of multiple paragons shouting together is clearly overpowered, and the high armour and Dps is rough to get past.

~(and no one seems to like the feminine male armour

...)

So what to do? Is the class out of balance? does anything need to be done? The implimentation of the class may have been poorly done, but removing the class altogether is obviously not an option. And most of the options that we have will do further damage to the class. Here are some of the suggesttions I have gleaned from different forums and sites:

~Lowering the armour or spear level (or both): The spear has excellent Dps, even higher than a sword or axe. The pvp'er hates dealing with multiple ranged warriors, however the pve group is constantly complaining that the spear line is lacking good skills (unconditional deep wounds?? ..hmm) The opposite reaction from the pve world would obliterate the class out of pve use.

~Buffing the shouts/chants or protection power. The paragon would certainly see more use and affection in the pve domain with more powerful buffs, But without nerfing other aspects of the class would create an uproar in PvP. All paragon groups are already too close to (if not already) overpowered.

~Anti shout/chant mechanic. The class really isn't a bad idea... but the mechanics of the class clearly don't work, and the 'leadership' role of the paragon is defeated by it's exploits. The mechanics of shouts/chants/echos must be dealt with, perhapse like this:If a paragon uses a shout/chant/echo all other paragons on the team that share that same skill would have the skill disabled for XX amount of time.. (or some other way to cancel out shouts from multiple paras) I don't think pvp'ers would complain at only having to deal with one paragon (armour and all) and usually in pve only one paragon will be on the team anyway.

~the addition of a condition 'deafness': to curb the powerful effect of multiple shouts/chants a new condition could be intoduced...for instance: If XX number of shouts are effecting a player then that player suffers from 'deafness' and cannot be effected by any shouts/chants.... the addition of a condition 'deafness' would also create the ability to create more interesting skills...for instance:

"Kill them!" all party members suffer from deafness for XX seconds and all foes within earshot lose XX energy and take xx damage

~Echos need to be like weapon spells- this was an interesting suggestion. Why not have echos cancel out when more than one is applied to an ally? this would work in a similar way to weapon spells. They could buff the echos slightly and create more interesting builds involving the echo you have chosen.

~The new skills can fix everything: The paragon only has a handful of usefull skills compared to the other classes. The current skills have a huge list of hyper situational skills, and maybe all can be fixed with some new skills.

~ or.. leave the paragon like it is currently (just give us a helmet like the kournans for goodness sakes... the female kournans look more manly and armoured than my male paragon!!) - Is it fine the way it is? ...

~etc...

I certainly hope that the paragon can see better days, and maybe our suggestions will be considered.

what do you think? should the class, skills, equipment or mechanics be adjusted? Or... should it be left as is?

Winterclaw · May 17, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Will the new skills (if there are any) and armour (if there is any) in GWEN fix the problem.

10 new skills and 4 new armors in GWEN doesn't leave much hope for the future of paragons and them getting "fixed". If they were doing a normal chapter, maybe there'd be some hope with 25 or so new skills but even if they did, there weren't many drastic changes to how the classes played when a new chapter was released.

Corinthian · May 17, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

The Ultimate Solution: All paragon shouts/chants/whatever affect only those party members who don't have paragon as primary or secondary class. FIXED KTHXBB

clawofcrimson · May 17, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

The Ultimate Solution: All paragon shouts/chants/whatever affect only those party members who don't have paragon as primary or secondary class. FIXED KTHXBB

so you want to see all w/p groups own now?

Racthoh · May 17, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

The PvE community just needs to be better educated on paragons. It could do a lot of good for everyone to observe them on the teams in the top 100 who are using them for higher tiers of play: To see what skills are being used and how they can affect the outcome of a battle.

Tackling chants/echos is another ordeal for PvP balance on top of the armour and ranged DPS they possess.

Mylon · May 17, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

My problem with Paragons in PvE is that I can only take 3 heroes. If I was not forced to take an enfeebling/SS necro to help mitigate damage and deal damage that scales with the enemy's buffs, or bring a monk with a decent build, or bring someone with actual interrupts, and if the henchies had decent attack skills, then I would bring a paragon with skills like Go for the Eyes, Mending Refrain, that burning one, and Watch Yourself for some nice all around buffs. The paragon hench tries to play like a monk and fails horribly.

I can't say my PvP experience is too stellar, as I've gone from one crappy PvP guild to another. And without rank, I think I'll be doomed to stay in crappy PvP guilds and PUGs are not an option.

unbound00 · May 17, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

~the addition of a condition 'deafness': to curb the powerful effect of multiple shouts/chants a new condition could be intoduced...for instance: If XX number of shouts are effecting a player then that player suffers from 'deafness' and cannot be effected by any shouts/chants.... the addition of a condition 'deafness' would also create the ability to create more interesting skills...for instance:

"Kill them!" all party members suffer from deafness for XX seconds and all foes within earshot lose XX energy and take xx damage

It's not a bad idea, but I would call it "Cacophony" instead.

tomcruisejr · May 17, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I've lost faith in A.Net since they started to do a trend of implementing new skills and classes and changing them to a state of almost uselessness after a few weeks or a month. Of course, some of them skills were clearly overpowering the established skillsets in rotation but are most of what they changed really overpowered(or are they just getting the playtime since they are just good and new?). By A.Net doing this, one can infer that all is clearly a matter of selling new copies of the game and those new good skills and classes are there to entice the player base to buy releases.

I always thought that the new releases will freshen the game and will give players a multitude of possibilities to win and to have fun. But there are forces that are keeping things stale and static and even not giving the chance of getting most of the skills playable. The paragon, which was a promising class, was a victim and now almost neutered coz of the nerfs and shits. Come on, that's why (you) release new classes and skills to give the game variety. Rebalancing established skills for the sake of variety is a lame and an idiotic excuse and little by little lessening the integrity of the game.

Might as well delete all new classes, keep it prophecies and sell pve expansions to make $$. Or better make paragons, assassins, ritualists, dervish and all classes in GWEN PVE only classes.

IlikeGW · May 17, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

If they just take some of those pve only skills coming in NF or GW:EN, and give them the old paragon stats for things like incoming and they're on fire and SYG, people would be a lot happier.

Jedi Battousai · May 17, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The PvE community just needs to be better educated on paragons. It could do a lot of good for everyone to observe them on the teams in the top 100 who are using them for higher tiers of play: To see what skills are being used and how they can affect the outcome of a battle.

Tackling chants/echos is another ordeal for PvP balance on top of the armour and ranged DPS they possess.

I almost always run a Paragon Hero in Hard Mode. I just don't understand why people hate them so much. Morghan has helped my party in more ways thatn I can count.

wetsparks · May 17, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

The problem with paragons is the same problem with mesmers. Both are powerful, but not in a way like elementalists where you can see what they are doing. A monk you can see them heal and see the health someone gains in your party bar. An ele you can see the spells hitting the enemies. warriors, rangers, assassins, and dervishes you can see them hitting the enemies with their weapons. You cant see all the spells that a memser interrupts or the energy that an enemy has lost because the mesmer burned it all away.
You cant see the effects that a paragons shouts do to a party and there is a misconception that paragons spear skills suck. People also seem to think that every paragon has to use ]They're on Fire, Anthem of Flame and Incoming because that is what some fool posted on guildwiki. So when they get nerfed because of paragon parties in HA, everyone thinks that paragons now "suck." There are still plenty of good skills for a paragon to use if people just take two seconds to think and be creative.

Series · May 17, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

so you want to see all w/p groups own now?

What the hell are you talking about

Scutilla · May 17, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

~ or.. leave the paragon like it is currently (just give us a helmet like the kournans for goodness sakes... the female kournans look more manly and armoured than my male paragon!!) - Is it fine the way it is?

That'd be my vote. I've never had problems with my paragon in PvE, and I'd love a helmet for him

IlikeGW · May 17, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

People also seem to think that every paragon has to use ]They're on Fire, Anthem of Flame and Incoming because that is what some fool posted on guildwiki. So when they get nerfed because of paragon parties in HA, everyone thinks that paragons now "suck." There are still plenty of good skills for a paragon to use if people just take two seconds to think and be creative.

I'm pretty sure people don't look up PVE builds because it's just not that hard, except for soloing or uber hard areas. They figure out what's good on their own and so a nerf to the good skills is going to be felt by a majority of those pve players who were good at what they were doing but are being "nerfed" for something other people are doing, mainly pvp.

But seriously, let's hear some good PVE support paragon builds that would be a stellar addition to parties. Spearagons don't count because the class is 3/4 SUPPORT based. Yes, they can melee, but that's not the majority of what the paragon was made for and not very appealling to pve players to have 75% crapped over skills. Of course it's no sweat to PVP players, they're not building a character they're grabbing a handful of things from it for a specific purpose, a highly different purpose. They don't have to open their character and stare at 3 gimped attribute lines full of skills that aren't doing much.

Tactical-Dillusions · May 17, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Paragons are not the only class that uses shouts.

That's all i have to say in this matter because i'm not very experienced with them, having only levelled one to 20 and left her to collect dust.

clawofcrimson · May 17, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

If they just take some of those pve only skills coming in NF or GW:EN, and give them the old paragon stats for things like incoming and they're on fire and SYG, people would be a lot happier.

all the new pve only skills are non class-related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

What the hell are you talking about.

The skills used in all paragon teams can easily be done with all warrior/paragons... making it only effect P/ primary would not fix the (apparent) problem with shouts and echos.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10139802

Racthoh · May 17, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

But seriously, let's hear some good PVE support paragon builds that would be a stellar addition to parties.

Loving this as my monk's Morgahn:

And my warrior's Morgahn for HM:

Smile Like Umean It · May 17, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

The skills used in all paragon teams can easily be done with all warrior/paragons... making it only effect P/ primary would not fix the (apparent) problem with shouts and echos.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10139802

No, he said all primaries and secondaries. Being a warrior doesn't mean crap, when it would be the paragon secondary that counts.

Brother Andicus · May 17, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

But seriously, let's hear some good PVE support paragon builds that would be a stellar addition to parties. Spearagons don't count because the class is 3/4 SUPPORT based.

100% support based and provides a whole chunk of extra defense with some nice offensive buffs thrown in too.

Paragon/Warrior
Level: 20

Leadership: 12 (11+1)
Spear Mastery: 1
Command: 14 (10+4)
Tactics: 10

- Defensive Anthem [Elite] (Leadership)
For 9 seconds, each party member within earshot has a 50% chance to block incoming attacks. This Chant ends if that party member hits with an attack.
Energy:15 Cast:1 Recharge:25

- Anthem of Flame (Leadership)
For 10 seconds, the next attack Skill used by each ally within earshot also causes Burning for 3 seconds.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:10

- "Watch Yourself!" (Tactics)
Party members near you gain +20 armor For 9 seconds.
Adrenaline:4

- "Go For The Eyes!" (Command)
For 10 seconds, the next time each ally within earshot makes an attack, they have an additional 72% chance to critical.
Adrenaline:4

- "Find Their Weakness!" (Command)
For 19 seconds, the next time target ally criticals, that ally also inflicts a deep wound for 19 seconds,
Energy:10 Cast:0 Recharge:15

- "Never Surrender!" (Command)
For 10 seconds, all allies within earshot and below 75% health gain 5 health regeneration.
Energy:5 Cast:0 Recharge:20

- "Stand Your Ground!" (Command)
For 33 seconds, all party members within earshot recieve 24 armour when not moving.
Energy:5 Cast:0 Recharge:45

- Signet of Return (Leadership)
Resurrect target party member with 13% health and 3% energy for each party member within earshot.
Energy:0 Cast:6 Recharge:15

+44 armour(most of the time)
A nice block skill
A 100HP partywide heal for when you are under pressure
Allies attacks set enemies on fire on a fairly regular basis
Allies score critical hits much more often
Deep wounds on demand
A nice res skill with leadership so high.

Not a bar i'd use, since spears are far to good to waste, but if you really want a 100% support bar, give it a whirl.

w00t! · May 17, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

The problem with paragons is the same problem with mesmers. Both are powerful, but not in a way like elementalists where you can see what they are doing.
<snip>
There are still plenty of good skills for a paragon to use if people just take two seconds to think and be creative.

QFT.

I've played a Paragon through most of Nightfall PvE, and with the possible exception of Necromancers, I find that they're the easiest to play and be successful with. Like Wetsparks mentioned, the only problem with them is that their skills aren't easily observed by the average GW moron.

The only problem I have with Paragons is that, because they're so versatile, I need a skill bar about twice as big - 16 slots please.