Curse

hotman · Sep 14, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

now that tntf is nerfed, are paragon's still usable,

why was it even nerfed?

its a pve skill

MercenaryKnight · Sep 14, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

It was nerfed because every class went x/p and used it with no leadership and chained it with others. Hopefully they'll come to their senses and give it say 100% failure if leadership isn't above 4 or something and revert it back to the way it was.

stueyman2099 · Sep 14, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Paragons are very usable, even with the nerf.

Bouldershoulder · Sep 14, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

I don't get why people think that, just because of one nerf, the entire class has to become unplayable. Find a way around it. It's not that hard. Paragons are a wonderful profession with lots of possibilities. Just because one of the more used skills in the game has to be nerfed, doesn't mean you just stop playing the Paragon.

Stormlord Alex · Sep 14, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

The paragon isn't dead untill Agressive Refrain is dead.

Racthoh · Sep 14, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The paragon isn't dead untill Agressive Refrain is dead.

It's being hit (sometime soon), but not significantly enough to drop it from bars.

Lord Palidore · Sep 15, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

I dunno, I wish it wasn't, but it does seem dead to me.

Still usable- yes, but other classes can essentially do the same things a paragon does, except better. I still use my paragon over my other character, but for the very reason mentioned previously, the only groups I can get into would be henchmen and heroes.

Ensign · Sep 15, 2007, 08:49 AM // 08:49

The Paragon is dead in PvE because a vast majority of Paragon proponents are very, very, very, very bad at Guild Wars. Paragon is one of the easiest professions to play in the game; it takes a concentrated effort to avoid learning what they're good at and how to be successful.

Darkpower Alchemist · Sep 15, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17

The paragon is being 'toned down' line by line. Motivation felt the wrath of the nerf bat first, then Motivation took the 2nd hit. Recent it was TnTF!, yet it is still very useful thanks to AR,AoF, and GfTE!.

ANet seems to have the habit of not seeing what they did ahead of time, though they apparently test these things for a long period before allowing it to go live. I think that playing the skill makes you think "That's Awesome! Leave it like that!" but when others tell them the skill is overpowered or they see a certain build being overly used then they blow the dust off the nerf bat.

They are now adjusting PvE Only skills...so what does that really say?

Karmaniac · Sep 15, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The paragon isn't dead untill Agressive Refrain is dead.

I suppose you don't need to wait very long to have your new mule. Some very prominent members of the community are already seeing to it here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy

I'm a stupid huge fan of the -10 armor on this skill, and it's something I'll probably try and push for. Until then keep up the feedback on this thing.

10% off the normal price of luber at your local pharmacy when you show them your paragon.

Racthoh · Sep 15, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

-10 means your paragon has to move out of the AoE.
-20 while attacking means you have to stop attacking if you still want to stand in the AoE.

Agreed, paragon is dead for sure now.

Diddy bow · Sep 16, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Paragons are still gonna be the best in the game for a while. They are just soso in pve this made them uh... more soso. The -10 should be nothing much to worry about

.

nardhelain · Sep 16, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

I suppose you don't need to wait very long to have your new mule. Some very prominent members of the community are already seeing to it here.

The PvP community wants paragons nerfed into unplayability because it's nigh impossible to make a dent in a team with multiple paragons. That's okay; I get that, but the trouble is that to make a paragon team more reasonable by skillwise nerfing, you make the single paragon worse than useless. The damage caused to the profession as a PvE class, as a single-paragon PvP char is disproportionately large compared to the balance imposed on a multiple paragon setup.

I don't remember where I saw this, unfortunately, so I can't give credit, but I think this is a fabulous idea. Instead of making individual paragon skills useless enough to satisfy the PvP community, add a new condition called "deafness" or just make it a permanent game mechanic. "Deafness" could limit the number of shouts/chants party members can be affected by, and/or limit the number of shouters party members can "hear". This would allow some of the badly nerfed paragon skills to be rebuffed somewhat since only a limited number from limited sources could be in effect at any given time. This would give paragons more of a role in PvE (where they tend to be single paragons rather than part of a whole phalanx of them), and it would also strictly limit the effectiveness of multiple-paragon teams in PvP.

What do you think? Would that be enough to keep everyone (plus or minus) happy? I really enjoy playing a paragon in PvE, but all the nerfs have made it impossible for me to play with anyone other than heroes/henches. However, I wouldn't want to see PvP completely broken because of overpowered paragons, either.

(Disclaimer: AB is as far into PvP as I ever get, so I don't know firsthand if paragons are as overpowered in PvP as several noisy complainers say they are.)

Karmaniac · Sep 16, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

If they ever implemented a way other than mechanical reduction of effectiveness to balance paragons and limit their synergy somewhat I would be all for it. However this would require actual thought so its unlike to happen anytime soon. I'm no smarter for that matter since everytime I think of a solution it tends to have the polar opposite effect of what was intended.

But back to AR: when I started playing this game some two years ago I did have an occasional chuckle reading about horrible PUG experiences. A monk that charged mursaat with sword and shield occasionally casting healing breeze and heal party for example. This however doesn't make me laugh one bit. For the sake of an argument lets say that -10AL is approximately 15% more damage taken and -20AL about 30% more. Why would I ever use this in pve? It costs 25e, requires another shout to maintain and 25% IAS is as low as they get. Against lvl 28 monsters dying 15-30% faster does seem awfully high price to pay for such a trifle benefit. If this nerf does indeed take place I will ditch this skill and replace it with better alternatives such as flurry, flail or maybe even soldier's fury. Because in my eyes AG is as good as dead then.

In addition there's the psychological aspect to consider. People do recognize patterns. If paragons get nerfed in every single update does it really encourage people play them? I think not. If 50% of paragons stop playing them after every nerf it won't be very long before the paragon forum is two people telling each other sugar coated lies how against all evidence paragons are still the best profession in gw.

Prof Of Black · Sep 16, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Lol, I still love my Paragon,

It's the best profession in whole GW, imo.

~Prof.

Ensign · Sep 16, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by nardhelain

The PvP community wants paragons nerfed into unplayability because it's nigh impossible to make a dent in a team with multiple paragons. That's okay; I get that, but the trouble is that to make a paragon team more reasonable by skillwise nerfing, you make the single paragon worse than useless. The damage caused to the profession as a PvE class, as a single-paragon PvP char is disproportionately large compared to the balance imposed on a multiple paragon setup.

That has not been the case for a while. There are balance issues with single Paragons as well. There are a few skills that benefit from massing Paragons, but that is no longer the primary balance concern of the profession. In most cases a team only runs 1-2 Paragons, every Paragon after the first tends to be a bit weaker and more of a niche character.

Paragons have only a single problem in PvE - their abilities are entirely incompatible with tanknspank. If your strategy relies upon centralizing all of the aggro on a single tank and balling everything for AoE, there is no place for a Paragon on that team, and it has nothing to do with the power of the profession. If you are not playing tanknspank, Paragons are unquestionably one of the strongest professions in PvE. A vast majority of the PvE community is simply unable to think past the singular strategy that has been imported from virtually every other game in the genre.

Dean Harper · Sep 17, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

not by a long shot are paragons dead

MMSDome · Sep 17, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Paragons are still a Godsend to guild wars.

imo of course!

Dark Paladin X · Sep 17, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I actually once have an axe-wielding paragon before I deleted her for a ranger.

Alex Morningstar · Sep 17, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I love my paragon and I don't play with you lot (pugs) anyway soo... long live the paragon.